LED build and PAR readings (pic intensive) - Page 5

Santoki · 01/20/2010, 08:09 AM

Reefman1111,
I am not dimming as dipan has pointed out. My reasons for not dimming are outlined in the original post.
As for choice of metals, aluminum is a far better heat conductor when compared to stainless steel. Copper is even better, but for our applications around salt water and reef inhabitants, that would not be an ideal choice, although at this mounting height, it probably wouldn't matter.
-R

I-am-Mike · 01/23/2010, 09:48 PM

If I have a surface area 16in.x16in. w a depth of 20 in. how big a pendant would I need for a sole source of light? Shrooms and xenia only or should I get 2 or 3 current led bars @ 35 dollars each?

Santoki · 01/24/2010, 07:47 AM

I-am-Mike,
I have never used or tested the Current LED bars. However, I know they are using 1w emitters. IMO, 1w emitters are not suitable for use as sole light source. 24 3w Cree emitters like those used in my pendants are sufficient to keep any types of corals you wish in the area you specified. The two corals you listed IME, have very different light requirements. Xenia being high light, while shrooms can tolerate a wide range. If you are on a budget, you could build an array with 12 LEDs and play around with optics and mount height. You could make it work for you by placing shrooms around edges where light is less intense.
-R

CalmSeasQuest · 01/24/2010, 01:41 PM

Santoki,

Thank you for your PAR measurements - I recently installed 2 units of AquaIllumination LEDS about 2" above the water on a 24"X20"X20" tank. I believe the AIs, on a unit-to-unit comparison are very similar in output to your build. I was struggling to determine how much PAR was being delivered as various depths. I found that compared to the "look" of MHs, the PAR obtained from the 3 watt Cree's is very deceiving - It's far more than it appears (at least to my eye and the impact it's had on my corals.) At 75% - Even my RBTA went into hiding.

I've had to turn down the AI whites to 45% to keep from bleaching everything (including SPS) in the top 1/3 of the tank. The AIs also used 40 degree optics which results in a spotlighting effect when mounted on the rails. I'm waiting on a hanging kit which should resolve that issue.

Thanks again for sharing your results - I agree with your outlook regarding the future of LEDS. I believe they will largely replace MHs in the next few years as the acquisition costs come down.

Santoki · 01/24/2010, 07:39 PM

Tom,
you are exactly right regarding the inaccuracy of the perceived output from these LED units.
This stems from the fact that LEDs output very specific spectra. The typical halide lamp for example, contains various spectra which do not contribute to photosynthesis. The human eye is far more sensitive to green light for example, which the typical halide bulb contains an abundance of, especially your average 10k bulb. This results in a very bright "perceived" output, which means little when talking PAR.
The majority of the spectral output from these LED combinations fall directly in the areas used in photosynthesis. Because there are almost no extraneous spectra, output appears less, relative to your typical T5 or metal halide bulb. Hanging your AI units higher will definitely alleviate the intensity problems you are experiencing now.
-R

melev · 01/25/2010, 06:17 PM

Great video. The fact that your tank is so clean makes it so much better.

Santoki · 01/25/2010, 07:10 PM

Thanks Marc!
-R

kvosstra · 01/26/2010, 12:34 PM

Couldnt agree more with Marc - tank looks great - and the lights really seem to "spotlight" the tank. I really like that there is not a lot of light pollution in the rest of the room.

So, how difficult is this project to do, for someone with limited soldering skills and at least a drill press?

Santoki · 01/26/2010, 01:04 PM

Thanks kvosstra.
It's hard to answer that question, but I find it relatively easy to do now, albeit a little time consuming. I do remember it took some trial and error to figure some things out.
The original prototype was reworked and redesigned twice, due to things I learned during the first build. Wire quality for example: I learned not to use cheap thin sheath wire (it created shorts when it stripped in places). I also learned the hard way that you should not make the powersupply/led connection after AC power is flowing through the constant current powersupply/driver. I burned out a whole chain of LEDs this way during testing.
In short, I think doing exactly what I have done should not be too hard, and would work quite well provided one sets up their tank the same way as mine. However, different ideas and preferences regarding setups such as tank dimensions, aquascaping, type of corals, etc... will create the need to reevaluate the application, resulting in modifications which will have to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
-R

TheFishMan65 · 01/29/2010, 10:01 AM

Great job!

What gauge wire is the DP9 cable? They are designed for low power signals. Not 700ma - I think. Did you use multiple connections in the DP9? Maybe I am overreacting, but you might check if the cable feels warm.

Santoki · 01/29/2010, 10:15 AM

The cables were completely cool to the touch after my 48 hour burn-in test (left pendant on for 48 hours then measured heatsink/component temps).
FWIW, in this case, the limit is more on the power supply than the wire. The longer the wire length, the more current needs to be drawn.
The DB9 connector can accommodate 24 or 22 gauge thickness wire. If you were using higher gauge braided wire, you should strip off the excess to make it fit, but I think that is not kosher.
I used 24 gauge solid copper wire for the DB9, and yes, I utilized multiple connections.
-R

TheFishMan65 · 01/29/2010, 11:14 AM

I am glad you used multiple connectors - you are probably OK with 24 gauge wire. But for your your information a longer wire should not cause higher currents. The meanwells are constant current devices. So actually the voltage is increases (a little) to take care of the voltage drop caused by the wires resistance.

Santoki · 01/29/2010, 11:24 AM

sorry, incorrect terminology was used.
I meant voltage increases, not current. But yes, 24 gauge works just fine, the resistance it creates is a moot point unless we're talking hundreds of feet...
-R

g8gxp · 01/29/2010, 12:06 PM

is there any harm in using a large wire? I'm using 16 stranded from the meanwell to my LED string but 20 guage stranded between LED's. I figure there will be about 3.5 feet of wire between drivers and light strings. is this ok?

Santoki · 01/29/2010, 12:15 PM

No harm at all in using larger gauge wires.
Smaller gauge wires can be easier to work with in certain situations.
-R

dipan · 01/29/2010, 12:40 PM

When you say you used multiple connections, does that mean for say, a single driver to fixture run, you used two or more conductors in the cable for positive and the same number for negative?

Santoki · 01/29/2010, 01:03 PM

dipan,
I think the answer to your question is yes.
To clarify further, each pendant needs 3 power leads. 1 for blue, 1 for white, and one for the cooling fan. So a total of 6 poles out of the 9 were used in this case. This connector could have supported one additional channel if needed. An extra blue or white array for example.
-R

pteam · 01/29/2010, 01:33 PM

How much do you think you will save in energy costs per year?

Santoki · 01/29/2010, 07:22 PM

Rates in the my state is currently around $0.13 per kWh.
I used the calculator here and figured out that I would be saving around $330 a year in electricity costs alone.
Let's not forget about bulbs @ say.. average $60 per bulb (x3) every six months.
That comes out to $690 for this year alone.
-R

PhLipStyLz · 01/30/2010, 05:40 PM

Robert - very impressive build. I love how you kept aesthetics in mind. Even if tilting your two 2 side pendants has no advantages, it does add to the "look" of the 3 pendant fixture.

keep us posted with the coral quality!

(btw, PM sent)

philip

I-am-Mike · 01/31/2010, 01:21 PM

I wonder if for shrooms in a 20 in. deep tank this ready made fixture might work for me and cost less.Panorama 12W LED Module with Transformer ecoxotic $94.00 let me know what you think it says they have cree 3w driven at 1 watt.thaks all

Santoki · 01/31/2010, 08:18 PM

I-am-Mike,
do you have a link?
I don't know why you would drive 3w LEDs at 1w....
-R

I-am-Mike · 02/01/2010, 08:57 PM

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/8318/product.web I must have imagined the part about them being 3w cant find it, thought it was in a review. anyway for shrooms I am considering 2 of these units suspended about 4 to 6 in. above. Yours and anyone elses opinions would be great thanks.

TheFishMan65 · 02/01/2010, 09:05 PM

You can drive an LED at almost any wattage you want. Power (watts) is current times voltage. An LED needs a voltage of around 3 volts. So if you drive it .333 amps (the low end of the allowed range) you use one watt of power. IF you max out at 1 amp you use three watts of power.

vipjd39 · 02/01/2010, 09:37 PM

Out of curiosity, I have a marineland 30x30x24 tank. It will house only softies such as zoanthids and leathers along with photosynthetic gorgonians. I would like to try my own build, however, what and how many of the crees would you suggest?

01/24/2010, 01:41 PM	#104
CalmSeasQuest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Brighton, MI Posts: 1,230	Santoki, Thank you for your PAR measurements - I recently installed 2 units of AquaIllumination LEDS about 2" above the water on a 24"X20"X20" tank. I believe the AIs, on a unit-to-unit comparison are very similar in output to your build. I was struggling to determine how much PAR was being delivered as various depths. I found that compared to the "look" of MHs, the PAR obtained from the 3 watt Cree's is very deceiving - It's far more than it appears (at least to my eye and the impact it's had on my corals.) At 75% - Even my RBTA went into hiding. I've had to turn down the AI whites to 45% to keep from bleaching everything (including SPS) in the top 1/3 of the tank. The AIs also used 40 degree optics which results in a spotlighting effect when mounted on the rails. I'm waiting on a hanging kit which should resolve that issue. Thanks again for sharing your results - I agree with your outlook regarding the future of LEDS. I believe they will largely replace MHs in the next few years as the acquisition costs come down. __________________ -Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

01/26/2010, 12:34 PM	#108
kvosstra Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 995	Couldnt agree more with Marc - tank looks great - and the lights really seem to "spotlight" the tank. I really like that there is not a lot of light pollution in the rest of the room. So, how difficult is this project to do, for someone with limited soldering skills and at least a drill press? __________________ "To him, all good things, trout as well as eternal salvation, come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy." -Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It, 1976 Current Tank Info: recently set up my 40G sps tank again!

01/29/2010, 10:15 AM	#111
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	The cables were completely cool to the touch after my 48 hour burn-in test (left pendant on for 48 hours then measured heatsink/component temps). FWIW, in this case, the limit is more on the power supply than the wire. The longer the wire length, the more current needs to be drawn. The DB9 connector can accommodate 24 or 22 gauge thickness wire. If you were using higher gauge braided wire, you should strip off the excess to make it fit, but I think that is not kosher. I used 24 gauge solid copper wire for the DB9, and yes, I utilized multiple connections. -R Last edited by Santoki; 01/29/2010 at 10:20 AM.

02/01/2010, 08:57 PM	#123
I-am-Mike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yakima Wa. Posts: 17	http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/8318/product.web I must have imagined the part about them being 3w cant find it, thought it was in a review. anyway for shrooms I am considering 2 of these units suspended about 4 to 6 in. above. Yours and anyone elses opinions would be great thanks. Last edited by I-am-Mike; 02/01/2010 at 09:28 PM.

01/20/2010, 08:09 AM	#101
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	Reefman1111, I am not dimming as dipan has pointed out. My reasons for not dimming are outlined in the original post. As for choice of metals, aluminum is a far better heat conductor when compared to stainless steel. Copper is even better, but for our applications around salt water and reef inhabitants, that would not be an ideal choice, although at this mounting height, it probably wouldn't matter. -R

01/23/2010, 09:48 PM	#102
I-am-Mike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yakima Wa. Posts: 17	If I have a surface area 16in.x16in. w a depth of 20 in. how big a pendant would I need for a sole source of light? Shrooms and xenia only or should I get 2 or 3 current led bars @ 35 dollars each?

01/24/2010, 07:47 AM	#103
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	I-am-Mike, I have never used or tested the Current LED bars. However, I know they are using 1w emitters. IMO, 1w emitters are not suitable for use as sole light source. 24 3w Cree emitters like those used in my pendants are sufficient to keep any types of corals you wish in the area you specified. The two corals you listed IME, have very different light requirements. Xenia being high light, while shrooms can tolerate a wide range. If you are on a budget, you could build an array with 12 LEDs and play around with optics and mount height. You could make it work for you by placing shrooms around edges where light is less intense. -R

01/24/2010, 07:39 PM	#105
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	Tom, you are exactly right regarding the inaccuracy of the perceived output from these LED units. This stems from the fact that LEDs output very specific spectra. The typical halide lamp for example, contains various spectra which do not contribute to photosynthesis. The human eye is far more sensitive to green light for example, which the typical halide bulb contains an abundance of, especially your average 10k bulb. This results in a very bright "perceived" output, which means little when talking PAR. The majority of the spectral output from these LED combinations fall directly in the areas used in photosynthesis. Because there are almost no extraneous spectra, output appears less, relative to your typical T5 or metal halide bulb. Hanging your AI units higher will definitely alleviate the intensity problems you are experiencing now. -R

01/25/2010, 06:17 PM	#106
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Great video. The fact that your tank is so clean makes it so much better.

01/25/2010, 07:10 PM	#107
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	Thanks Marc! -R

01/26/2010, 01:04 PM	#109
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	Thanks kvosstra. It's hard to answer that question, but I find it relatively easy to do now, albeit a little time consuming. I do remember it took some trial and error to figure some things out. The original prototype was reworked and redesigned twice, due to things I learned during the first build. Wire quality for example: I learned not to use cheap thin sheath wire (it created shorts when it stripped in places). I also learned the hard way that you should not make the powersupply/led connection after AC power is flowing through the constant current powersupply/driver. I burned out a whole chain of LEDs this way during testing. In short, I think doing exactly what I have done should not be too hard, and would work quite well provided one sets up their tank the same way as mine. However, different ideas and preferences regarding setups such as tank dimensions, aquascaping, type of corals, etc... will create the need to reevaluate the application, resulting in modifications which will have to be considered on a case-by-case basis. -R

01/29/2010, 10:01 AM	#110
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	Great job! What gauge wire is the DP9 cable? They are designed for low power signals. Not 700ma - I think. Did you use multiple connections in the DP9? Maybe I am overreacting, but you might check if the cable feels warm.

01/29/2010, 11:14 AM	#112
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	I am glad you used multiple connectors - you are probably OK with 24 gauge wire. But for your your information a longer wire should not cause higher currents. The meanwells are constant current devices. So actually the voltage is increases (a little) to take care of the voltage drop caused by the wires resistance.

01/29/2010, 11:24 AM	#113
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	sorry, incorrect terminology was used. I meant voltage increases, not current. But yes, 24 gauge works just fine, the resistance it creates is a moot point unless we're talking hundreds of feet... -R

01/29/2010, 12:06 PM	#114
g8gxp Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 685	is there any harm in using a large wire? I'm using 16 stranded from the meanwell to my LED string but 20 guage stranded between LED's. I figure there will be about 3.5 feet of wire between drivers and light strings. is this ok?

01/29/2010, 12:15 PM	#115
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	No harm at all in using larger gauge wires. Smaller gauge wires can be easier to work with in certain situations. -R

01/29/2010, 12:40 PM	#116
dipan Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 342	When you say you used multiple connections, does that mean for say, a single driver to fixture run, you used two or more conductors in the cable for positive and the same number for negative?

01/29/2010, 01:03 PM	#117
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	dipan, I think the answer to your question is yes. To clarify further, each pendant needs 3 power leads. 1 for blue, 1 for white, and one for the cooling fan. So a total of 6 poles out of the 9 were used in this case. This connector could have supported one additional channel if needed. An extra blue or white array for example. -R

01/29/2010, 01:33 PM	#118
pteam Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 81	How much do you think you will save in energy costs per year?

01/29/2010, 07:22 PM	#119
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	Rates in the my state is currently around $0.13 per kWh. I used the calculator here and figured out that I would be saving around $330 a year in electricity costs alone. Let's not forget about bulbs @ say.. average $60 per bulb (x3) every six months. That comes out to $690 for this year alone. -R

01/30/2010, 05:40 PM	#120
PhLipStyLz Philip Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: The First State Posts: 278	Robert - very impressive build. I love how you kept aesthetics in mind. Even if tilting your two 2 side pendants has no advantages, it does add to the "look" of the 3 pendant fixture. keep us posted with the coral quality! (btw, PM sent) philip

01/31/2010, 01:21 PM	#121
I-am-Mike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yakima Wa. Posts: 17	I wonder if for shrooms in a 20 in. deep tank this ready made fixture might work for me and cost less.Panorama 12W LED Module with Transformer ecoxotic $94.00 let me know what you think it says they have cree 3w driven at 1 watt.thaks all

01/31/2010, 08:18 PM	#122
Santoki Shimmer Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 619	I-am-Mike, do you have a link? I don't know why you would drive 3w LEDs at 1w.... -R

02/01/2010, 09:05 PM	#124
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	You can drive an LED at almost any wattage you want. Power (watts) is current times voltage. An LED needs a voltage of around 3 volts. So if you drive it .333 amps (the low end of the allowed range) you use one watt of power. IF you max out at 1 amp you use three watts of power.

02/01/2010, 09:37 PM	#125
vipjd39 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 409	Out of curiosity, I have a marineland 30x30x24 tank. It will house only softies such as zoanthids and leathers along with photosynthetic gorgonians. I would like to try my own build, however, what and how many of the crees would you suggest?