Algae Scrubber Basics

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

That was a problem with my original waterfall design, which I guess is getting close to ten years old now:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1424843

However, by lowering the bottom of the growth box down to the level of the sump water, the problem is fixed:

And introduces a whole slew of other potential issues.

[Scuba_Steve]

I have been running my 4x4, 10w each side, 18h on for a few months now. I am coral only right now, so i almost never feed.

My scrubber started nice thick and green. Now i barely collect anything, thin and yellowish.

I would assume this is because i have completely depleted all nutrients the scrubber needs to grow, but I have bad algae issues in the display. Hair and macros going crazy!

Any ideas?

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

[Floyd R Turbo]

@Scuba_Steve a few more details would be helpful - pics especially. Type of lamp, proximity, etc.

Without that I'd be guessing but I'd say that it sounds like a pretty textbook case of too might light (intensity) and not enough nutrients, which can result in the growth pattern you describe & allow DT algae to get a foothold.

[Scuba_Steve]

Here you go.

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

[Scuba_Steve]

Lights are about 1.5" away, and i have no room to back them up.

Maybe switch to one sided for now?

Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

Here you go

damn tapatalk images, had to open in a separate tab...vB and TT do not go well together when it comes to images.

yeah those are really close and probably too intense for the bioload.

What color? How many hours/day do you run them?

Also those are not exactly in a safe position...

[yellojello]

First attempt at swapping a white led to a red one. Possibly the red isn't running as strong wattage as white, both are labeled as 30w, but never measured power yet. Also could be uneven water flow, or different amount of attached algae at beginning from last cleaning.

[SantaMonica]

Any scrubbing is good scrubbing. Even a small algae scrubber on a big tank will help your glass stay clearer, longer. But beyond that, the basic guidelines for algae scrubbers are based on how much you feed each day. These guidelines are to help you get the minimum size or number of scrubbers that will still do a good job of total filtration. You cannot "over scrub", so having a larger scrubber (or more of them) simply works more like the oceans and lakes do which have enormous amounts of algae to do all the filtering. And the scrubber can go anywhere in your system; it will filter the same.

Scrubbers are sized according to feeding. Nutrients "in" (feeding) must equal nutrients "out" (scrubber growth), no matter how many gallons or liters you have. So...

An example VERTICAL upflow or waterfall screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm) with a total of 12 real florescent watts (not equivalent watts) of light, or half that for LEDs, for 18 hours a day. If all 12 watts (6 watts LED) are on one side, it is a 1-sided screen. If the watts are divided on each side of the screen, it is a 2-sided screen. This should be able to handle the following amounts of daily feeding:

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or
1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or
10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or
5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or
10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or
5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or
0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or
0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

Problem rocks: Each 50 pounds (2.2 kg) of nuisance algae covered rocks you have adds 1 cube a day.

Flow or air bubbles is always 24 hours; water flow is at least 35 gph per inch of width of screen [60 lph per cm], EVEN IF one sided or horizontal.

Floating surface scrubbers with strings: Screen size is the size of the box (Length X Width), and is 2-sided because the strings grow in 3D.

Clean algae:

Every 7 to 10 days, or
When it's black, or
When it fills up, or
When algae lets go, or
When nutrients start to rise

However these are just starting points; a lot of your tank filtering (especially in saltwater) is based on your rocks, so their condition plays a part too in what size scrubber to make, as well as what type of feeding you are doing, and what other filters you will be using. Here are some specific guidelines:

FRESHWATER:

Since freshwater grows extremely thin, long algae, scrubbers without strings are recommended. This is because you will probably need to clean the scrubber in your sink with a toothbrush (instead of in-place harvesting while still in your aquarium), and it's easier to brush a flat wall than it is to brush strings. So flat-wall scrubbers such as wide-panel bubble upflows work well in freshwater. Also, since the thin stringy freshwater algae will flow out of holes in the scrubber, if you put the scrubber in your display (where the animals are), they will learn to eat out of the scrubber and you will therefore be able to feed less. If you intend to do a large part of your feeding this way, multiple scrubbers will allow the feeding (and filtering) to continue in one when you have cleaned the other. Waterfall types are not recommended for freshwater because the long thin growth flows out of the drain.

SALTWATER:

With saltwater, you can get thick dense growth in the scrubber, which is when strings are an advantage (to hold on to the growth). So adding strings to a scrubber is acceptable and the decision is based on size and on where you want to put it, and also on how you want to clean it. Saltwater tanks which use live rock (even if the rock is "dead") will need to take into consideration the history of the rock: If it came from a tank with algae problems, each 50 pounds (23 kg) of this rock will add 1 cube a day to your feeding. This is because the rock is really just coral skeletons which absorbed nutrients from the water when the nutrients in the previous (or current) tank were high, and these nutrients will then start coming out and flowing into the water when your scrubber starts working.

After looking at size, the main consideration is where you are going to put it. Since scrubbers filter the same in any location, it is just a matter of placement. Unlike freshwater, the thicker growth in saltwater usually does not flow out of the holes or drains as much, so you can't rely on it for automatic feeding (although you can manually take some growth out, and feed that). And similar to freshwater, multiple units are better than a single unit.

REEF:

Reefs are the same considerations as saltwater, with the exception that some people like the reef to run as natural as possible, meaning filtered by algae alone. With that in mind, here are some more details and options:

1) If you are building a reef tank which is new, where the rocks are coming from the ocean or from a low-nutrient tank with no algae problems, and if you will just be feeding the fish sparingly, and if you DO want to have other filters and water changes, then you can just use the cube-feeding recommended sizes of the scrubbers.

2) If you are building a reef tank which is new as in #1 above, but you DON'T want any other filters or water changes, then double the recommended scrubbing amount in #1. This will supply the corals and small fish with the most amounts of food particles, and will allow filtering and feeding to continue in one scrubber after you have cleaned the other.

3) If you are building a reef tank which is new as in #1 or #2 above, but the rocks are coming a nutrient-problem tank which had measurable phosphate or hair algae problems, then the rocks will be soaked with phosphate and this will supply more phosphate to your new tank than your feeding will. So use the 50 pounds of rock = 1 cube of feeding guideline, to add to the recommend scrubbing amount.

4) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank, and the tank has no measurable phosphate and no nuisance algae, and if you have other filters and water changes and you DO want to keep them, then you can just use the cube-feeding sizes of the scrubbers.

5) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank as in #4 above but you DON'T want to continue using the other filters or water changes, then double the scrubber amount recommend in #4, preferably by having multiple scrubbers which are cleaned alternately. This will keep one scrubber filtering and feeding when you have cleaned the other.

6) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has measurable phosphate and green hair nuisance algae on the rocks, and you DO want to continue using other filters and water changes, then you can just use the recommended cube-feeding sizes of the scrubbers. Use extra light (more LEDs) if possible because the higher phosphate in the water needs brighter LED's to make the scrubber grow green sooner. And if you double the amount of scrubbing (two units instead of one), the problems will clear up twice as fast because there will be twice the amount of algae absorbing the nutrients out of the water, especially when you clean one of them.

7) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has measurable phosphate and green hair nuisance algae on the rocks as in #6 above, and you DON'T want to continue using other filters and water changes, then double the amount of scrubbing recommended in #6.

8) If you are adding a scrubber to an existing reef tank that has NO measurable phosphate, but has LOTS of green hair nuisance algae on the rocks, then you need the strongest LEDs possible because the rocks are already full of phosphate, and the algae on the rocks is absorbing this phosphate, meaning you need the strongest scrubbing possible in order to out-compete the algae on the rocks. This is the hardest situation to fix, so you should use as much scrubbing as possible with the strongest LEDs available, and use as many other filters and water changes as possible too, until the algae on the rocks turns yellow and lets go.

End

[biecacka]

Turbo, I'm getting an L3 of yours used. How many cubes a day is it rated for?

Corey

[buddah001]

Got a quick question. I've made several attempts to get my ATS running. Every time I try my tank gets algae or bryopsis growing in it and the ATS only grows some sort of snotty gooey slime that is brown green in color. Vibrant kills everything off pretty quickly
Any suggestions?
Nitrates always read 0
Phosphates always read 0

[karimwassef]

turn off the tank lights for a few days
turn on the ATS lights 24/7
feed more
make sure you have sufficient flow

[buddah001]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

turn off the tank lights for a few days
turn on the ATS lights 24/7
feed more
make sure you have sufficient flow

Should I completely black out the entire tank with garbage bags or is just having the lights out ok?
Did turn on the ATS light 24/7 last night
I do feed often but maybe not enough
I have 2 Gyre 230's in the main tank 250's were to much

Any idea what that brown/green gooey jelly is? It seems to be photosynthetic and initially when it starts it is on the screen of the ATS floating around in the water column

Thanks for you help

[Floyd R Turbo]

24/7 should not be used unless you can successfully grow a good thick mat of GHA at a lower intensity and shorter photoperiod.

Photosaturation is a tricky one sometimes. But that is what you're seeing most likely. When you have too much light and not enough nutrients in the delivered water to absorb that energy, things go awry

What you need to do is find the right intensity for your scrubber that allows algae to grow nicely. Once you are at that intensity, you can generally increase the photoperiod more because your immediate light absorbtion is at a stable point so that GHA grows nicely. If you are right on the bleeding edge of photosaturation at a certain intensity & photoperiod, and then you increase the photoperiod, you can creep into photosaturation but it's less likely this will happen vs increasing intensity.

If you are at a bleeding-edge point and then crank up the intensity, you're very likely to photosaturate.

The bottom line is that unless you have a large tank (large nutrient sink) and not too overly large of a scrubber respectively, you can't force algae to grow by maximizing the light power/duration. That can actually cause the wrong type of growth.

Since your phosphate and nitrate are both zero, you're more likely to run into the bleeding edge effect, and very easily - because your nutrient sink is low.

Pics of scrubber? Type of lights? Is this the 135 in your sig? Size of scrubber? etc...the more info, the better

[karimwassef]

He's getting algae in his tank and none in the scrubber - it's starving imo. Once the algae in the tank starves and starts dying, there should be enough to feed the scrubber and kick off nice growth.

I get brown goo when there's not enough food relative to the light. I've cranked up the light to the equivalent of MH at 24/7 within a foot and not gotten goo unless I had no food.

Photosaturation is very real but I haven't experienced it unless the scrubber is starving.

[buddah001]

I posted pics in the advanced thread. Post #894. 135g display all new dry rock was used at startup. 2x AI Hydra 52 and one Hydra 26
Tank is lightly stocked 1x kole tang, 1x clown 3x anthias, 1x goby.
Lost a lot of inverts initially with dino/bryopsis outbreak. I believe it was both. Bought a BRS JUMBO reactor and filled it half full with high capacity GFO and started using Virant and got rid of the Dino/bryopsis rather quickly. Stopped the reactor and vibrant to get this ATS back online.
ATS is a 20xh with a 11x17 screen I believe. Has 2x adjustable 300w led grow lights. When I initially started it up. I did have the lights at almost full bore 24/7 and I did have some growth starting. Turned them down to 10% power 18 on and 6 off and nothing since but this goo.
I know it is oversized for the tank. But I will be ok letting it go longer between harvesting the growth.
I bought a used cheap skimmer because I was hoping the ATS would force most of the job

[karimwassef]

You don't need a skimmer expect to inject air imo. You got goo because your tank beat your scrubber and consumed your inorganics before your scrubber got to it. I would personally start with a scrubber first if you don't have enough fish to eat algae in the display.

I'd go dark until you get a nice thick growth on the scrubber. It doesn't hurt to ramp up slowly but you need to feed you algae.

I'm planning a new larger tank and my startup has the display in complete darkness until I develop a nice thick growth in all my scrubbers. Maybe a month or two to really get established. Algae and dark water bacteria first! Then worms and pods. Then glass shrimp and inverts. Then I'll let light and fish into the display.

Kind of like how nature did it.

[Horace]

Is there a problem with the container being air tight? I am looking at using a food container, and many of them are air tight. Do I need to provide fresh air to the algae or is the gases in the water sufficient?

[Floyd R Turbo]

IME air tight is fine. It's difficult to get 100% air tight in reality though. That being said, I've seen air-tight boxes with a fan on them (and an air outlet) for forced air circulation and that results in growth improvement in the cases I've seen. Not sure how much that translates to effectiveness, and how reliable that is (i.e. would everyone get better growth or was it just that one case)

[SantaMonica]

Every time I try my tank gets algae or bryopsis growing in it and the ATS only grows some sort of snotty gooey slime that is brown green in color

Sounds like a flow of phosphate from the rocks to the scrubber, which feed the bryopsis. This is good.

Vibrant kills everything off pretty quickly

Some might be remaining in the system somewhere, causing the slime.

11x17 screen I believe. I know it is oversized for the tank. But I will be ok letting it go longer between harvesting the growth

Way too big; this is a main reason for the thin growth... not enough nutrients to grow allow gha to attach to such a large area. Smaller is better.

I bought a used cheap skimmer because I was hoping the ATS would force most of the job

Skimmer is unrelated. Use it to remove the food that you feed.

Is there a problem with the container being air tight?

It's not air tight if it can drain water.

[Horace]

@santamonica

"It's not air tight if it can drain water. "

I suppose that is true, and I thought of that, but the better question is, would that be enough air movement? The container I am thinking of buying claims an airtight seal on top. The bottom will have an airtight bulkhead with the drain going under water. I assume I will need to drill some holes to allow it to drain....hopefully that is sufficient airflow

[SantaMonica]

The CO2 needed can be pulled into the box from the smallest hole, and from the bubbles in the water, so any container is fine.

[buddah001]

[QUOTE=SantaMonica;25189282]Sounds like a flow of phosphate from the rocks to the scrubber, which feed the bryopsis. This is good.



Some might be remaining in the system somewhere, causing the slime.



Way too big; this is a main reason for the thin growth... not enough nutrients to grow allow gha to attach to such a large area. Smaller is better.

I get the screen is big but it would at least start growing some GHA on it, wouldn't it?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by buddah001

I posted pics in the advanced thread. Post #894. 135g display all new dry rock was used at startup. 2x AI Hydra 52 and one Hydra 26
Tank is lightly stocked 1x kole tang, 1x clown 3x anthias, 1x goby.
Lost a lot of inverts initially with dino/bryopsis outbreak. I believe it was both. Bought a BRS JUMBO reactor and filled it half full with high capacity GFO and started using Virant and got rid of the Dino/bryopsis rather quickly. Stopped the reactor and vibrant to get this ATS back online.
ATS is a 20xh with a 11x17 screen I believe. Has 2x adjustable 300w led grow lights. When I initially started it up. I did have the lights at almost full bore 24/7 and I did have some growth starting. Turned them down to 10% power 18 on and 6 off and nothing since but this goo.
I know it is oversized for the tank. But I will be ok letting it go longer between harvesting the growth.
I bought a used cheap skimmer because I was hoping the ATS would force most of the job

Ok now I have the connection

If you had those lights at 100%, 11x17 screen on a 135g, that is a bit much. The distance of the lights from the screen is going to cut that back a bit, which is probably why you had at least some growth

Going back to 10% is too far in the other direction probably - maybe with that fixture and distance, 20% or 30% - hard to say as not all dimmers are linear.

But going back to the screen size, with that small bioload you are just not producing the nutrient density or nutrient sink in the water to support growth on the screen. While you may be able to grow for a longer period of time, there is a limit, especially for an open-air screen vs an enclosed-box where you can get 3D growth that is suspended. So you're not really gaining anything by having a greatly oversized screen.

For that amount of fish load, and that size tank, you really only need something between 4x4 and 7x7 for screen size and much less light.

You can try to tweak the lighting and flow, but it's just going to be a balancing act.

So another question to fill in a piece of the puzzle - what is your flow rate on the screen? I'm referring to the total flow, not the per inch. If you haven't measured it to confirm, model of pump and vertical head, should be able to estimate from there.

For the vertical head, that's from the water level the pump is in (depth under does not matter) to the slot pipe level.

Also, what is the ID of the pipe or tubing feeding the scrubber? As well as any fittings like unions, valves, or elbows.

I'm trying to get a handle on the flow rate, this can make a difference in the lighting level recommendation, as well as a couple other things

[buddah001]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Ok now I have the connection

If you had those lights at 100%, 11x17 screen on a 135g, that is a bit much. The distance of the lights from the screen is going to cut that back a bit, which is probably why you had at least some growth

Going back to 10% is too far in the other direction probably - maybe with that fixture and distance, 20% or 30% - hard to say as not all dimmers are linear.

But going back to the screen size, with that small bioload you are just not producing the nutrient density or nutrient sink in the water to support growth on the screen. While you may be able to grow for a longer period of time, there is a limit, especially for an open-air screen vs an enclosed-box where you can get 3D growth that is suspended. So you're not really gaining anything by having a greatly oversized screen.

For that amount of fish load, and that size tank, you really only need something between 4x4 and 7x7 for screen size and much less light.

You can try to tweak the lighting and flow, but it's just going to be a balancing act.

So another question to fill in a piece of the puzzle - what is your flow rate on the screen? I'm referring to the total flow, not the per inch. If you haven't measured it to confirm, model of pump and vertical head, should be able to estimate from there.

For the vertical head, that's from the water level the pump is in (depth under does not matter) to the slot pipe level.

Also, what is the ID of the pipe or tubing feeding the scrubber? As well as any fittings like unions, valves, or elbows.

I'm trying to get a handle on the flow rate, this can make a difference in the lighting level recommendation, as well as a couple other things

I have a manifold off my return pump in the basement. Return pump is a blue line 70. 1/2" pipe supplying the ATS with a gate valve adjusting flow
I have it opened enough to where it is "sheeting" the entire screen. I've never actually measured it. It's not spraying hard at all just enough to make sure there is enough flow to cover the entire screen.

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's good. I would bump the intensity up a bit, and reduce the photoperiod to 9 hours/day.

18 hrs/day of even medium intensity LED light (for a fixture that strong, especially) on a screen that does not have a good solid base of growth is too long. Even if you didn't have dimming ability, 9 hours/day to start, 12 max

Consider this point re-starting, but with a bit of a base

Also, if you have only slime and maybe some fine brown algae that is hair-like, rinse the screen well (room temp tap water, medium flow rate, not blasting) to get rid of the slime while rubbing with your palm of you hand or your fingertips. You want to get rid of the slime, but keep any hair-like algae.

Then put it back in action and leave it alone for 10 days at 9 hrs/day 20%, after 5 days if you see some growth under white light (flashlight) then go to 30% but don't exceed 30% for at least 2 weeks. If you keep seeing growth progress, increase hours by just a few hours at a time (add 2 hours, go one growth cycle)

Ramp it up slow. Don't force it. and definitely do not over-clean. You should not scrape or really remove any GHA that you can get growing for at least a month - only rub & rinse to clear off the loose growth