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10/16/2015, 09:42 PM | #2051 |
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Sorry I've been AWOL, all my elderly relatives are deciding to climb up ladders and fall into the rhubarb.
Using dirty method, dosing nitrates to ~5ppm, phos is .03. Feeding a rotation of frozen mysis, emerald entree, heavy doses of phytofeast, ROE, NLS teeny pellets and oyster eggs. No water changes. Running minimal carbon, mechanical filtration at night. No skimming or water changes. I think my tank may be turning a corner.. I have had a couple of snail deaths which is worrying, but the other inverts are ok. Having a lot of cyano in the one corner where a crab and shrimp molt wound up but otherwise I see a whole lot of green algae, diatoms (weirdly). Still seeing at least 2 genera of dinos under the microscope but I can't scrape enough off the glass/filter socks to get Sommus' test to work. @bigjohnny I have a load of corals from my bro in law's tank which exploded near the beginning of the month. Includes 2 palm sized Monti caps and 3-4 unknowns. The fuzzy sticks actually look really happy, with good PE. They are very brown, but the bleaching from the shock of being dropped onto the floor is actually reversing. I also have crap lights compared with bil. 2 monti caps, seem ok but one has a white margin I'm not sure about. @bheron the carbon is more to soak up toxins. I run it since I have toxic Ostreopsis and have had a lot of deaths. Skimmer did nothing for me but some people have had good results. Dinos suck up *insane* amounts of nitrates and phosphates. I have had to actually dose nitrates to maintain a reading. @billybatz Glad to hear you're getting somewhere! I would try to gently suck the cyano up with a turkey baster. Water changes don't do much for cyano (imho) because it can fix its own nitrogen anyway. @karimwassif I think dirty vs clean is where one is on the ocd scale. Some people are driven insane by algae patches and want tight control of what goes on in the tank. People like me are kinda lazy, like the idea of random critters and aren't going for a TOTM aquarium. There's probably a correlation between having sps and getting dinos; I just got "lucky". ivy
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 10/16/2015 at 09:44 PM. Reason: forgot to add that I feed my fishies |
10/19/2015, 02:28 PM | #2052 |
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Good paper on blackouts and dinos!
I found this fascinating paper on using blackouts to kill dinos! (Hey Google, why on earth didn't you kick this up in the gazillion previous searches I've done??) 3 day blackouts are *not* effective, it has to be at *least* 5 days, 8 for total kill.
A maximum of 75% of the cells were found to be dead—according to the Sytox staining technique—after 5 days in darkness. Duplicate sub-cultures from 3 day dark cultures resulted in regrowth of vegetative cells, after a short lag period. By contrast, duplicate sub-cultures from 8 day dark cultures produced no detectable growth (increases in fluorescence) over a three week monitoring period. From: Mortality in cultures of the dinoflagellate Amphidinium carterae during culture senescence and darkness Daniel J. Franklin and John A. Berges (pdf file) found during a search for photoperiod and cyanobacteria of all things. Ivy
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 |
10/19/2015, 05:44 PM | #2053 | |
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10/19/2015, 05:58 PM | #2054 |
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ive have success with 3 days also...
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10/19/2015, 06:02 PM | #2055 |
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I agree that the study covers only one species of dinoflagellate. I don't know how common that particular species is, but I think it's interesting that it took 8 days to kill it off. Maybe a longer dark period would be a good idea for tanks that show no effect from a shorter period.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
10/19/2015, 10:00 PM | #2056 |
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Can corals and anemones go 8 days without light? What about fish?
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10/19/2015, 11:09 PM | #2057 |
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The fish should be okay. I'd expect that corals and anemones would be okay, but I can't be sure.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
10/20/2015, 12:59 AM | #2058 |
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I'm too lazy to read through my own posts right now, but I did 5 days if I remember it correctly and the effect it had on Ostreopsis was just like pressing pause and it was an automatic resume after the light came back on.
They are mixotrophic meaning lights out are not a problem for their energy needs and then there are the cysts. |
10/20/2015, 09:04 AM | #2059 |
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the longest i was able to go was 5 days before my sps started dying (my goal back then was 7 days)...i had to do 3 days, then 1 day of reduced light, then 2 days before i started noticing some stn and i stopped...of course back then my sps stn'ing could have been a multitude of other factors such as H2O2/UltraAlgaeX/Dinoxal dosing and many other things i was trying
i can do 3 days with absolutely no problem, in fact they seem to actually like a 3 day lights out once in a while - when i uncover the tank their polyps are all out, no signs of color loss, and they've continued to grow during the lights out fish are fine depending on what you have...i have anthias so when i do lights out, i will turn on the blues every 2nd night for 15-30 minutes just to feed him and any others that want to eat then cover the tank again...but generally they are fine for a few days without any food ps - as mentioned above, i've found blackouts to be temporary bandaids...they always came back afterwards, sometimes stronger than previously although i never tried more than 5 days...i suppose if you blackout for long enough, anything photosynthetic would die including most dinos Last edited by PorkchopExpress; 10/20/2015 at 09:29 AM. |
10/20/2015, 10:40 AM | #2060 |
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I would like to point out that filter-socks used in dino infested tanks could be a health risk after washing and drying.
They can potentially collect a lot of toxins in a few days of use in the tank. The toxins are not neutralized with boiling and the little that did not get washed off can easily get airborne after the sock dries. A solution could be to store them in a salt bucked. |
10/20/2015, 03:29 PM | #2061 |
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I wouldn't boil a filter sock under any circumstances. Hydrogen peroxide or bleach should break down any toxins, if enough is used.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
10/20/2015, 04:26 PM | #2062 |
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Not the best choice of words on my behalf.
I was just saying the heat in in washing machine has no effect on the toxins. Boiling is really dangerous since the toxins can be breathed in with the steam. After my socks get cleaned and dried they give off smelly odor and it's clear that there are still particles stuck in the socks massive surface area. Dust them off and you could be breathing them in. |
10/20/2015, 06:56 PM | #2063 | |
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Quote:
Amphidinium is one of the most common genera Pants identified in people's tanks, along with Ostreopsis and Symbiodinium. His website with pics: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/ I'm not recommending 8 day blackouts, I have no idea if that's safe for other life. I just find it interesting that they tested the usual 3 days and found dinos regrew very well. That has certainly been my experience. 8 days is the length of time it took the dinos to starve-even mixotrophic organisms must prey on something. They were checking on starvation vs apoptosis/chemotrophy. hth ivy
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 |
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10/21/2015, 10:28 AM | #2064 | |
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10/22/2015, 09:47 AM | #2065 |
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Going to order filter socks to siphon water into... hopefully will catch some dinoflagellates.
Should I go with 10 microns or 25? |
10/22/2015, 11:07 AM | #2066 |
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I always use a little bleach when I wash my filter socks. Hoping it kills everything. Plus I run through an extra rinse cycle to get rid of bleach residue. This may not be the best way but has worked with no apparent effects
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10/22/2015, 06:40 PM | #2067 |
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When my tank had dino's, my nitrates and phosphates were at zero. Mine went through a two week blackout. After the die-off my nitrates spiked to over 150. All the algae died and released it all back into the water column. I then did about a 90% waterchange. Have not seen any of the stuff since.
If you are wondering, I removed any coral I could to another tank. Daniel. |
10/22/2015, 07:27 PM | #2068 |
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Dinoflagellates.
Been three weeks without dinos and still have no detectable nitrates or phosphates. Been feeding 4 times a day and haven't done a water change in two months.
No chemical filtration. No carbon. Just a skimmer and filter floss. And a ton of cheato. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445563659.102538.jpg |
10/22/2015, 07:32 PM | #2069 | |
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10/22/2015, 07:37 PM | #2070 |
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Yup. And been feeding very heavy since I started the 4 doses to today. Also started dry skimming. Corals are very happy.
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10/22/2015, 07:51 PM | #2071 |
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I'll make a few claims here - and see what you think
"Dinos explode when the majority of rock in the system is artificial or decimated through bleaching/baking, etc..." Another claim: "The lack of biofauna creates an environment like the ancient oceans, where dinos were prevalent without predators or sufficient competitors" Final claim: "Systems with stablished bio rich rocks are not susceptible unless chemicals are used to kill the biofauna on the rocks (like algae or bacteria killers) or starve them." ...
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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape |
10/22/2015, 08:12 PM | #2072 |
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I think the final claim is what did me in
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10/23/2015, 01:18 AM | #2073 | |
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10/23/2015, 01:33 AM | #2074 |
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I'm writing an article of man made rock, so this is good confirmation thus far.
I wonder how long artificial rock needs to cycle and with what grade of live rock to overcome the deficiency of life.
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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape |
10/23/2015, 01:50 AM | #2075 |
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I know of a tank where the rocks were imported directly to be fresher than any of us can have.
The tank had dinos for a while but I think it's not visible any more. You got link in pm if you like to serearch. |
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