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Unread 12/08/2017, 09:07 PM   #1
IMDeus
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Is my tap water better?

I am on well water and had a $4K filtration system installed. This includes a softener, salt tank and UV. My wife thinks this is better than RO.

My question is, can I use my tap water since I have this system?


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Unread 12/08/2017, 09:27 PM   #2
Tuffyyyyy
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Not an expert but your answer is probably yes. The best logic I've seen for not using water from the tap is that you water works may not pump out the same water consistently and a RODI unit helps with that. It also removes a lot of gunk. All that said, I think you're alright with the well water and filtration. Don't know if you can hook this up somewhere but a TDS meter is the most common thing I've seen people use.


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Unread 12/08/2017, 09:40 PM   #3
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What you have is most certainly better than an RO system but it is not better that and RODI system. All home based water filtration systems are not designed to remove everything from the water. RODI water it is actually unhealthy to drink in large quantities where as RO (non dionized) or conditioned water is perfectly fine. For this reason all standard whole house water filtration systems will not remove everything from the water & lack the DI stage which happens to be one of the more important components to a good filtration system for your reef tank water. If it were me, I would still invest in an RODI & have peace of mind knowing that my filter cartridges should last longer since the taper water is conditioned. This assuming that the water that comes out of your well and filter system is low in CO2. If you have elevated CO2, you’ll want to invest in a cistern with good aeration as the Co2 will kill DI membranes in a hurry.


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Unread 12/08/2017, 09:47 PM   #4
VoltzNSalt
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RO/DI systems are pretty cheap...

Branch off your current system with an RO/DI and have the purest water than anyone on RC...

and your RO membrane will be sending virtually nothing to the drain...


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Unread 12/08/2017, 09:56 PM   #5
outy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDeus View Post

My question is, can I use my tap water since I have this system?

Hell no.

Your system is not breaking down the water to the atomic level of RO/DI it is not pure water.

It is just conditioned water for household consumption.

Good RO/DI water is laboratory grade water.


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Unread 12/08/2017, 10:00 PM   #6
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You should post your actual TDS of the tap water, it is not zero.

I have 27 TDS and my membranes last decades and small DI cartridges last a year or more. I replace the sediment filter the most.

You would be a long those same lines. Enjoy what you have, but never skimp on this hobby or it can bite you.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 08:15 AM   #7
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If your TDS is mostly form calcium and magnesium it's fine. If you have heavy metals in your well probably should get an RO/DI filter. Here's two of my systems I maintain on tap water which is usually 300 - 400 TDS and last time I tested .2 mg/l PO4

https://youtu.be/aSlIEfYE7o8
https://youtu.be/GFxUSRFRp24


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Unread 12/09/2017, 08:58 AM   #8
mcgyvr
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The price and description given isn't sufficient to judge if its better than anything..

So far I'd just say that $4k is kind of expensive/overpriced for just a softener and UV setup even with installation cost..
One can pick up all the components for such a system for under $1k easily..


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:06 AM   #9
HBtank
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You have a water conditioner and sterilizer, not filter.

RO/DI has a primary goal of TDS filtration to 0, you still want that.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:09 AM   #10
der_wille_zur_macht
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I think it's also important to consider what we mean by "better."

People in the reefkeeping hobby have become so utterly dependent on the fact that RO/DI removes "everything" that we've lost any sense of perspective in terms of which components of tapwater could actually be good or bad for a reef tank.

Tap water can have a LOT of different things in it. Many of these things are slightly harmful in a reef tank, some of them can be downright bad. But many of these things are either not a big deal, or may potentially be helpful. RO/DI removes pretty much everything, across the board. By default, it's a known-good solution, you don't have to think about it - just get an RO/DI and you're fine, regardless of what's in your tap water.

Your whole-house system is removing some things from the water, but likely not as much as an RO/DI would - again though, we don't really know exactly what it's leaving behind, so we don't really know if it's good or bad.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:15 AM   #11
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I lived 20 years in an area that nearly had to have water softeners. It was advised to not use softened water on your lawn. There is additional salt in softened water that would build up and harm the grass. The same company that put the softener system also added an RO system under the sink for drinking and cooking. The softener was used to take the calcium out of the water so pipes wouldn't clog.

Water softening was big business and so was plumbing repair on pipes in the older parts of town.

In my opinion, softened water is not a substitute for RODI filtered water.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:17 AM   #12
HBtank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht View Post
I think it's also important to consider what we mean by "better."

People in the reefkeeping hobby have become so utterly dependent on the fact that RO/DI removes "everything" that we've lost any sense of perspective in terms of which components of tapwater could actually be good or bad for a reef tank.

Tap water can have a LOT of different things in it. Many of these things are slightly harmful in a reef tank, some of them can be downright bad. But many of these things are either not a big deal, or may potentially be helpful. RO/DI removes pretty much everything, across the board. By default, it's a known-good solution, you don't have to think about it - just get an RO/DI and you're fine, regardless of what's in your tap water.

Your whole-house system is removing some things from the water, but likely not as much as an RO/DI would - again though, we don't really know exactly what it's leaving behind, so we don't really know if it's good or bad.
Well, "tap water" is very local and can even change depending on time of year as sources shift (i.e. how much chlorination based on groundwater versus surface; I personally deal with clhoramine spikes). And that ignores even more local concerns like your specific piping from the treatment facility up to your spigot.

So while you are right, I think the whole point is simply control and starting out at "0" allows that absent bringing a laboratory to your home.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:32 AM   #13
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2 things...

1) The ONLY way to get a real answer to this is to send a sample of your water to a lab and have it tested.

2) It's really risk analysis. What are the odds the water will work fine and remain fine for the life of your hobby? What is the cost of a RO/DI system in terms of everything else you are spending? If you plan on putting more than $1,000 or so into the project, I think putting $50 to $150 into a RO/DI system would be worth the added peace of mind, considering that nothing defines this hobby so much as the water itself. And the cost of a RO/DI unit is a very cheap upgrade to a $4k system

You might even want to think of RO/DI in your case not as a safety measure, but as a way to ensure consistency.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 09:52 AM   #14
der_wille_zur_macht
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBtank View Post
Well, "tap water" is very local and can even change depending on time of year as sources shift (i.e. how much chlorination based on groundwater versus surface; I personally deal with clhoramine spikes). And that ignores even more local concerns like your specific piping from the treatment facility up to your spigot.

So while you are right, I think the whole point is simply control and starting out at "0" allows that absent bringing a laboratory to your home.
I wouldn't disagree, I just think this is one of those areas where people tend to take something to an extreme without understanding the whole story. Check the forum for people who actually talk about using tap water - the response would make you think they're suggesting it's OK to drink poison. You also see people using TDS as if the only thing it measured was horrible bad pollutants. TDS just tells us something is in the water. It doesn't tell us what. As a standalone metric, it's not very useful beyond knowing when to change your RODI components. Before you decide to use an RODI and before you choose what components you need in one, you really need to understand what is making up that TDS reading. You can buy a standard off the shelf unit and be OK but it won't be tuned for your needs and you may be throwing money away. This guy is a perfect example. Depending on what is in that whole house system, he may not nerd the same pre-filters as the rest of us and using restrictive pre-filters may drop his already low (thanks to the house system) water pressure to a point where the membrane is out of spec.

When in doubt, use RODI. If you don't want to have to think about it, use RODI. But that doesn't mean all tap water is always bad, or that having a TDS reading means there's a serious reason to not use the water.


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Last edited by der_wille_zur_macht; 12/09/2017 at 09:58 AM.
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Unread 12/09/2017, 10:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht View Post
having a TDS reading means there's a serious reason to not use the water.

Fact is, water without going through a membrane is a no no regardless of TDS.

There should be no discussion that any amount of TDS is acceptable because we have no control over the seasonal changes in content.

Many water softeners are simply large Cation DI resin chambers and other chemicals/media.

The fact he needs a treatment plant for his well water tells you he has some bad stuff to begin with, and its not being stripped clean as we in this hobby flat require. This should be a heads up there is no debate here about the OP's need for RO/DI.

Quote:
the same pre-filters
Yes he needs the same pre filters as we do.

Sediment filters only take out large debris, it never changes TDS in any way shape or form. Most people only need to run 1 sediment filter and if OP runs an RO/DI and its a must he does, then he needs a pre filter as well.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 11:26 AM   #16
der_wille_zur_macht
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Fact is, water without going through a membrane is a no no regardless of TDS.

There should be no discussion that any amount of TDS is acceptable because we have no control over the seasonal changes in content.
I don't think you're getting my point, yet you're sort of indirectly supporting my argument. When we get a TDS reading, we don't know what the contaminant is. I agree, you shouldn't blindly put something in your tank that you don't understand - which is why RODI is a good default, if you don't know or care what's in your source. That said, some contaminants are bad, some don't make a difference, and some may actually be good - for instance, in an aquarium with moderate coral stocking and no Ca or alkalinity dosing, having some Ca in the source water may actually be good. So - I do disagree with you that ANY TDS reading is inherently bad. A more accurate statement would be that any TDS reading means we don't know what's in the water, good or bad.

Let me rephrase. You're saying any TDS is automatically bad. I'm saying, TDS just means there's an unknown in the water. If you're not going to bother to figure out what's in the water, or you want the path of least resistance to known-good water, then yes - use RODI. However, if you're interested enough to figure out what's in the source water, you may be fine without RODI.

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Yes he needs the same pre filters as we do.
I disagree, and I think you're missing my point again. he may need prefilters, but he probably doesn't need the "same" prefilters that come in most off the shelf units. He certainly doesn't need the same prefilters as someone without a whole-house unit who has really dirty source water in terms of particulates.

If the OP's whole house unit has good prefilters on it (and I'd say it's a very safe assumption that it does) then there's zero value in putting the typical series of mechanical prefilters on the RO unit, and doing so would serve no purpose except to further drop the water pressure, which is a bad thing in terms of RO membrane performance.

Most off the shelf units have carbon blocks as part of the prefilter, too. Carbon blocks remove some organics that would otherwise get taken out by the membrane, but they also remove chlorine which can destroy a membrane. If the OP's whole house unit has carbon somewhere in it, he probably doesn't need it before the membrane - again, we don't know.

To summarize - if the whole house unit has good sediment filters and carbon or some other method of removing chlorine, putting prefilters in his RODI unit is unnecessary and wasteful, in terms of wasting those prefilters and in terms of dropping pressure to the membrane.

We are way down a rabbit hole at this point, and once again I will say - for most situations, it's a safe assumption to use an RODI unit. You start out with a blank slate that way in terms of the product water. BUT, that does not mean that EVERY situation needs an RODI, or that EVERY TDS reading is bad, or that EVERY situation where there actually is something bad in the source water can be solved with the same default off the shelf unit.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 11:42 AM   #17
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there's zero value in putting the typical series of mechanical prefilters on the RO unit
There is zero reason for anyone to run more then 1 pre filter. Running 2 serves no purpose at all, except to extend the life of 1 pre filter, at the cost of buying 2.

My point is OP does need at least one pre filter

Quote:
So - I do disagree with you that ANY TDS reading is inherently bad.
there should be no argument here, as your opening a gate for good TDS which also can let in bad TDS. It is impossible to separate the good from bad TDS. So we always remove it all.

One always starts with 0 in our hobby, having any TDS is bad. There is NEVER an acceptable level of TDS where one would not recommend running water through a membrane.

Now if your TDS is sky high and your getting TDS creep, well then your doing the best you can.

In OP's case, we know we have a BAD source water that has not been through a membrane, it needs to go through one period.

There is never a case where good TDS is trusted regardless of any test done, we dont leave the gate open, or ever recommend the gate be left open despite positive additions to said water.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 12:11 PM   #18
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Sorry, we do also have a multimedia filter


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Unread 12/09/2017, 12:44 PM   #19
der_wille_zur_macht
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My point is OP does need at least one pre filter
I agree, but he probably (definitely?) already has one on his whole-house unit, so there's no need to load up his RODI unit with one.


[quote]It is impossible to separate the good from bad TDS.[quote]

That's not technically true. There are lots of ways - pretty much every removal tool we have (including DI resin and RO membranes) is selective. We can easily target specific types of molecules, if we want to. But that wasn't my point, anyways. My point was, if you bother to test your source water, then you can make informed decisions about how to treat it, if at all.

Quote:
One always starts with 0 in our hobby, having any TDS is bad. There is NEVER an acceptable level of TDS where one would not recommend running water through a membrane.
...and my point is, while it's OK to assume starting at zero is fine, there's nothing meaningful in TDS, except that "something" is in the water. Yes, starting with nothing is always good, but "something" doesn't always mean "bad." I'm not trying to make an argument against RODI, I'm just trying to point out that it's often used as an excuse to not actually understand source water. Which is fine, in practice, but a bit of a shame, IMHO.

I think we've beaten this to death - I had no intention in a multipost tangent. I'd still stand by my point, but I don't think we're adding a lot of value here for the OP's actual question. Speaking of - to address the OP - if you can give us a detailed explanation of the whole house system, we can make some suggestions. Or, call one of the commonly used RODI vendors and explain your system to them and get their recommendation.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 12:46 PM   #20
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Just do a 2 stage di resin, since you already have ro water.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 01:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht View Post
I agree, but he probably (definitely?) already has one on his whole-house unit, so there's no need to load up his RODI unit with one.

.
Never chance this, a piece of scale from plumbing can cause complete failure of a system. I did that once and my system failed in less then a week from a piece of debris clogging my shut off valve.

In OP's case any debris in plumbing can clog membrane, a single 5 dollar filter is not something anyone should skimp on to ensure long life.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 01:00 PM   #22
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since you already have ro water.

We don't know that. he never stated he did


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Unread 12/09/2017, 01:02 PM   #23
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Sorry, we do also have a multimedia filter
Understood, but you still want one directly in front of membrane, its cheap insurance.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 07:06 PM   #24
der_wille_zur_macht
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Quote:
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Never chance this, a piece of scale from plumbing can cause complete failure of a system. I did that once and my system failed in less then a week from a piece of debris clogging my shut off valve.

In OP's case any debris in plumbing can clog membrane, a single 5 dollar filter is not something anyone should skimp on to ensure long life.
You ran an RODI unit with no prefilters? What source water did you have? Was it being treated by the same whole-home unit as this person?

At any rate, I'm not sure how scale would ever exist downstream from a softener. I do understand your point though, and if you wanted to run a prefilter downstream from a whole-home unit just for peace of mind, it would probably make sense to use one very different than the super fine low-micron units designed for raw tap water, as would normally be used on RODI filters. Prefilters are great at protecting equipment but they can also drop pressure significantly (especially downstream of a whole-house system, which is already dropping pressure). This can wreak havoc on the effectiveness of the membrane.


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Unread 12/09/2017, 08:16 PM   #25
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What are you trying to keep? Fish only? Easy stuff? Or exclusively acropora, focusing on more difficult species? That matters. The benefits of Rodi aren’t that you get “clean” water. The benefits are that you get consistent water and if you use a quality salt, you’ll have your water be within ideal natural limits on most all major and minor elements. Not that it’s just “clean”.

I would suggest you mix up a batch of saltwater using your tap water and a batch using Rodi water, send them both in to Triton. Let the results guide your decision


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