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Unread 10/16/2018, 09:09 AM   #1
five.five-six
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SPS RTNing, ATI results. opinions needed

I have been losing SPS colonies for the last 6 or so weeks. starts at the base or the tips and a few days later POOF! that coral is gone. Fish, Zoas and LPS seem fine. I know I have nutrient issue and my SG is a bit low but neither of those issues should be causing the RTN. I see a few high levels of metals and am looking for direction on how to combat that

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/view/26106

High values

Zinc 11.30 µg/l
Sulfur 1182 mg/l
Bromine 77.16 mg/l
Zinc 11.30 µg/l
Tin 5.31 µg/l
Nitrate 24.97 mg/l
Phosphorus 46.71 µg/l
Phosphate 0.14 mg/l
Aluminium 51.29 µg/l


low values

Molybdenum 1.71 µg/l
Iodine 10.79 µg/l
Fluorid 0.17 mg/l
Strontium 2.32 mg/l
Manganese u.
Salinity (NaCl) 31.04 PSU


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/16/2018, 01:05 PM   #2
hkgar
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Do you test for dKH (Alkalinity)? Fluctuating dKH as been thought to cause RTN with SPS.

What is your water change schedule? What salt mix?


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180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx

Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels
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Unread 10/16/2018, 02:46 PM   #3
five.five-six
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I test alk weekly, and it stays fairly close... It has been a bit high. As high as 10 but it’s in the 8 range now.

Had been using IO but just changed to TM, just trying to eliminate things.

Generally I WC 1x mo 25%


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/16/2018, 03:54 PM   #4
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Sometimes it's not what you did yesterday with SPS. It may be something that happened a week or more in the past. An alk spike or other rapid change could cause the issue you describe & it might not show up right away. IMO, that's why those "sticks" are so difficult to maintain.


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Unread 10/16/2018, 05:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefgeezer View Post
Sometimes it's not what you did yesterday with SPS. It may be something that happened a week or more in the past. An alk spike or other rapid change could cause the issue you describe & it might not show up right away. IMO, that's why those "sticks" are so difficult to maintain.
You have to be a bit (a lot9 anal to keep SPS.test and test, test, and test some more.


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Gary


180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx

Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels
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Unread 10/16/2018, 06:52 PM   #6
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I might try a PolyFilter in case there's some metal contamination. The zinc level might be close to the toxic range, although the test results can be misleading.

I agree that the salinity is only a bit low. Has the device been calibrated recently? I suspect that the SG is fine, but given the losses, some double-checking might be useful. The same goes for the alkalinity and calcium kits, if that's not too difficult.

Have all the SPS been Acropora, or is this a more mixed set of species?


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Unread 10/16/2018, 09:08 PM   #7
five.five-six
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I might try a PolyFilter in case there's some metal contamination. The zinc level might be close to the toxic range, although the test results can be misleading.

I agree that the salinity is only a bit low. Has the device been calibrated recently? I suspect that the SG is fine, but given the losses, some double-checking might be useful. The same goes for the alkalinity and calcium kits, if that's not too difficult.

Have all the SPS been Acropora, or is this a more mixed set of species?
The refractometer is fine, It’s a Milwaukee and I knew the SG was low.. a function of takeing a little more water out than I put back in the last few WCs. Put poly filter in a week ago and no strange colors, just slowly turning brown.


I wonder what thesourse of the tin could be.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/16/2018, 09:14 PM   #8
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It's very hard to be sure that the tin level is real, but the most reasonable idea that comes to my mind is electronics.


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Unread 10/16/2018, 09:26 PM   #9
pisanoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
It's very hard to be sure that the tin level is real, but the most reasonable idea that comes to my mind is electronics.
Was it certain types of pvc that were thought to leach tin? Or was that another metal


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Unread 10/16/2018, 09:29 PM   #10
pisanoal
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If you are swinging between 8 and 10 rapidly (within a week or 2) that could be your answer. Also, if you are using a high alk salt and aren't matching your alk of new salt mix, a 25% change could be a pretty significant alk swing


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Unread 10/17/2018, 04:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisanoal View Post
If you are swinging between 8 and 10 rapidly (within a week or 2) that could be your answer.
Most certainly... A tank with SPS going from 10 to 8 isn't stable and they need stability.. Even a one time swing is sufficient to cause RTN..


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Unread 10/17/2018, 05:58 AM   #12
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On the zinc in particular........were you dosing any metals, trace elements.


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Unread 10/17/2018, 06:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisanoal View Post
If you are swinging between 8 and 10 rapidly (within a week or 2) that could be your answer. Also, if you are using a high alk salt and aren't matching your alk of new salt mix, a 25% change could be a pretty significant alk swing
Swings arn’t that hard. In fact consumption went down so much that I turned off CARX 2 months ago and my only alk supplementation has been 50% saturated lime water ( I have tandem topoff bottles and only added kalk to one and the other RO/DI). No water changes in the last 6 weeks as I was treating with fluconazole.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 06:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big E View Post
On the zinc in particular........were you dosing any metals, trace elements.
The zink and the aluminum were the two that stood out to me. That and the sulfur. I dose iron occasionally but that’s it.

Either something fell in my tank or I have a bad batch of IO or calcium hydroxide is my thinking.

RO/DI results came back from ATI and all zeros except for silicone. No idea where the silicon is comeing from. 123.2 µg/l No idea where that’s comeing from. It’s stored in a brute trash can.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 06:55 AM   #15
five.five-six
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I’ll send out another ATI-ICP test today

The day I sent the first ATI-ICP did a 60 gallon WC with new salt (yes 60 gallons on a 150 gal system but really, the tank was circling the drain) added carbon and turned the skimmer back on in installed polyfilter.

Since then I did a 30 gallon WC and changed carbon twice.

I think some of my most recent losses can be attributed to all the carbon and I anticipated that collateral damage when I decided to run that much carbon. Polyfilter wasn’t showing any color changes and tests for iron, iodine, potassium, alk, ca, mg, and ammonium were coming up normal.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 09:27 AM   #16
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IO mixes to 11 dKH at 1.026 and TM to 10. both pretty high. That is why I use Red Sea (blue bucket) 7.7 dKH

Here is a guide.


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180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx

Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels
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Unread 10/17/2018, 11:46 AM   #17
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I recently did an ATI test as well that showed very low levels of Iodine, similar to yours. In between the time I sent out the test and got results I noticed some (but not all) of my SPS were looking unhappy, with small bits of tissue loss, a few frags RTNing and not great polyp extension on others.

Anyways I dosed my Iodine back up to the recommend level over a 4 day period, and by the end of the 4 days it was clear that everything was much healthier. Polyp extension, especially on my Montiporas, was markedly better. Within a week Acros with tissue loss were recovering and I think I'm going to salvage pieces I was pretty sure were goners.

Now granted I don't know if this was directly related to the Iodine levels, but I keep all the parameters in my tank very steady so I'm strongly inclined to believe it was. Your test has a lot more going on than mine (I only had 3 recommendations from ATI), but in addition to doing the other things I'd get your Iodine levels back to normal.


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Unread 10/17/2018, 06:55 PM   #18
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I'm skeptical about iodine doing much, but it might be an issue. Lots of people run with very low iodine since it is consumed very rapidly and very few people dose.

I'm skeptical about PVC leaching much tin. What tin is used in the product should be bound up quite well, and the situation hasn't changed in years. People have used PVC for a long time.


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Unread 10/17/2018, 07:04 PM   #19
five.five-six
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I'm skeptical about iodine doing much, but it might be an issue. Lots of people run with very low iodine since it is consumed very rapidly and very few people dose.

I'm skeptical about PVC leaching much tin. What tin is used in the product should be bound up quite well, and the situation hasn't changed in years. People have used PVC for a long time.
the only PVC in my tank is te standpipe and it has been in place for several years

Some softies are sensitive to iodine deficentcies. SPS not so much. I have kept SPS successfully years befor there was even a reliable iodine test avalable on the hobbies market.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 07:05 PM   #20
five.five-six
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgar View Post
IO mixes to 11 dKH at 1.026 and TM to 10. both pretty high. That is why I use Red Sea (blue bucket) 7.7 dKH

Here is a guide.
I bought the “classic” TM and just tested it. Mixed up at 9.0.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 08:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I'm skeptical about iodine doing much, but it might be an issue. Lots of people run with very low iodine since it is consumed very rapidly and very few people dose.
I'm as skeptical as the next person, and there is no way I can know for sure it was the iodine dosing, but I believe the evidence for my tank does strongly support it. Alkalinity, nitrates, phosphates and calcium levels stayed constant as I saw coral health in some of my SPS decline. I lost a couple frags to RTN and saw some tissue loss on existing pieces. I bought a potassium kit, but those levels were normal. Then the ICP result comes back with basically everything normal but low iodine levels, then I dosed iodine and saw immediate positive effects.

I think a lot of people that never dose anything also do water changes all the time, which I do not. Maybe for iodine it isn't having a low reading at a point-in-time, but a prolonged deficit is a problem. I'm not sure. And if my iodine levels were low now, presumably they've been low for months since I don't do water changes and didn't dose it previously.

Before I started dosing iodine I did search around to see if there was anybody with a similar situation, and I came across a post by BattleCorals on another forum (which I can't link to) where he says the same thing. I'm going to quote it here because I can't link to it:

Quote:
9.5 times out of 10 id say its a fluke although I've had a few ICP test reveal smoking guns, the most blaring was extremely low iodine a while back. I was seeing odd tissue issues, and mild but random base recession. I corrected it and did see a significant improvement. This was one of those instances where there were more than one or two pieces affected similarly, and I felt I needed to act more aggressively to solve it. Was just around the time triton came to the states. I'd say if you have a clear culprit then obviously that is a time to react, but when the causes are more elusive, I am way less aggressive in my efforts to solve them.



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Unread 10/17/2018, 08:58 PM   #22
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It is interesting data, but there are a lot of counter-examples, as well, where iodine dosing didn't seem to do anything. For example, I dosed for a while and never noticed anything when I stopped, although my tank wasn't having problems, so I'm not sure how much that means.


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Unread 10/17/2018, 09:00 PM   #23
five.five-six
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I sent in another sample this evening and did a 20% WC.

There isn’t a whole lot of SPS left in my tank, actually not much at all perhaps 4-5 colonies and 10 frags or fractions of colonies just hanging on.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 09:09 PM   #24
five.five-six
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
It is interesting data, but there are a lot of counter-examples, as well, where iodine dosing didn't seem to do anything. For example, I dosed for a while and never noticed anything when I stopped, although my tank wasn't having problems, so I'm not sure how much that means.
I had to order some oddball circuit breakers on amazon and almost bought some iodine but figured with having done 120 gallons of WC in a 150 gallon system in the last week, Iodine was probably no longer a problem.


One thing that stood out to me was my Aluminium which was about 600X NSW values

NSW is 0.09 ug/L mine was 51.29 ug/L. I have no idea how it had gotten that high or what that much aluminum would do.


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Originally posted by yellowslayer13:

"I hate that hole"

Current Tank Info: SCMAS Member 225 peninsula euroreef RS180 Apex 400W X 3 20k radiums / Spectra mixed SPS
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Unread 10/17/2018, 10:42 PM   #25
pisanoal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by five.five-six View Post
I had to order some oddball circuit breakers on amazon and almost bought some iodine but figured with having done 120 gallons of WC in a 150 gallon system in the last week, Iodine was probably no longer a problem.


One thing that stood out to me was my Aluminium which was about 600X NSW values

NSW is 0.09 ug/L mine was 51.29 ug/L. I have no idea how it had gotten that high or what that much aluminum would do.
Do you use the marine pure blocks?

Ive seen where people have extremely elevated aluminum from running sintered glass media. There is definitely some background data on high aluminum levels in reef tanks. I dont recall anyone hypothesizing negative effects, but im not sure what levels they were dealing with. Would need to do some searching.

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