Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[vhuang168]

If I am taking it personally, you'll know. For 1, I won't be asking questions for clarification.

He made a statement regarding a sump that I feel is well engineered as marketing hype.

The following statement contains a few points but nothing concrete as to what exactly is the hype.

If he wants to share his knowledge and educate others, in happy to learn.

But if he wants to change my mind about something then he has to PROVE that my thinking is wrong.

Asking questions is how I choose to distill what exactly he is trying to say is marketing hype.

If he is prepared to make statements that challenge other's thinking, then be prepared for other to challenge back and try to poke holes in his statement.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Overgrown]

Lots of the perpetually and professionally offended in here it seems. Infiltrating even the most obscure corners of life, including the reef hobby. How quaint. In an effort to steer it back on topic, just wondering why I'm having flow issues with my open channel now. This has gotta be the 5th Bean system I've plumbed, all others with no issues. Not sure why I'm having issues with this one. Please advise. I moved the cap with the airline over to my open channel at the recommendation of BA, and while the system is "working," the open channel is taking on a ton of flow. My siphon is operating smoothly. Just wondering why there's so much turbulence in the open channel. See attached photos.From left to right: emergency drain(dry), open channel, full siphon. Note the massive amount of air/ flow from the open channel. Perhaps I need to valve down my return pump? ( which id rather not if I don't have to)
Thanks in advance.

[saf1]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

If I am taking it personally, you'll know. For 1, I won't be asking questions for clarification.

He made a statement regarding a sump that I feel is well engineered as marketing hype.

The following statement contains a few points but nothing concrete as to what exactly is the hype.

If he wants to share his knowledge and educate others, in happy to learn.

But if he wants to change my mind about something then he has to PROVE that my thinking is wrong.

Asking questions is how I choose to distill what exactly he is trying to say is marketing hype.

If he is prepared to make statements that challenge other's thinking, then be prepared for other to challenge back and try to poke holes in his statement.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then you are looking for an argument and I can't help you. To me it was pretty clear what he said. So maybe it is me. Fair enough? He shares his knowledge in this thread countless times. Feel free to go back any number of pages. People may not like the answer or agree but the design and function is what it is. Anything outside of it, modification or otherwise, makes it no longer a Beananimal. Therefore, not guaranteed to work as designed.

To me, it is as simple as that.

[vhuang168]

Originally Posted by saf1

Then you are looking for an argument and I can't help you. To me it was pretty clear what he said. So maybe it is me. Fair enough? He shares his knowledge in this thread countless times. Feel free to go back any number of pages. People may not like the answer or agree but the design and function is what it is. Anything outside of it, modification or otherwise, makes it no longer a Beananimal. Therefore, not guaranteed to work as designed.

To me, it is as simple as that.

I prefer a discussion.

Or are you saying that since he says it is, it becomes fact and I should roll over and accept it? Or I should move on and disregard what he says because I don't agree? Or should I try to find out as much information from him as I can so I can make an informed decision?

I have no problems with him. I appreciate the help he has given here and I run a BA on my system and recommend it to others whenever possible. Helping them set it up. Mine is setup differently but works well. No complaints.

But I am NOT talking about a BA drain system here. Its his assertion that (I think) the Dreambox is marketing hype. I'm trying to nail down what exactly is the hype? The mechanical filtration, the multiple socks? And why EXACTLY.

And as a disclaimer, I don't run socks. So multiple or single sock makes no matter to me.

[Overgrown]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

I prefer a discussion.

Or are you saying that since he says it is, it becomes fact and I should roll over and accept it? Or I should move on and disregard what he says because I don't agree? Or should I try to find out as much information from him as I can so I can make an informed decision?

I have no problems with him. I appreciate the help he has given here and I run a BA on my system and recommend it to others whenever possible. Helping them set it up. Mine is setup differently but works well. No complaints.

But I am NOT talking about a BA drain system here. Its his assertion that (I think) the Dreambox is marketing hype. I'm trying to nail down what exactly is the hype? The mechanical filtration, the multiple socks? And why EXACTLY.

And as a disclaimer, I don't run socks. So multiple or single sock makes no matter to me.

The discussion you seek isn't one for the confines of the silent and failsafe overflow thread.

[Rybren]

Originally Posted by Overgrown

... Please advise. I moved the cap with the airline over to my open channel at the recommendation of BA, and while the system is "working," the open channel is taking on a ton of flow. My siphon is operating smoothly. Just wondering why there's so much turbulence in the open channel. See attached photos.From left to right: emergency drain(dry), open channel, full siphon. Note the massive amount of air/ flow from the open channel. Perhaps I need to valve down my return pump? ( which id rather not if I don't have to)
Thanks in advance.

Have you tried slightly opening the valve on the siphon line to allow more water through the siphon and less through the OC? In my experience, it can be tricky to find the sweet spot where the flow is 'just right'. On mine, it took a lot of playing with the ball valve on the initial setup.

Because I'm too lazy to look back , what size bulkheads and pipes are you using, and what is the flow rate of your pump?

[uncleof6]

Overgrown:

Shut the system down. Open the valve on the siphon all the way, open the valve on the pump all the way. Make sure you drain lines are clear. Remedial perhaps, but check the system over for any differences between this one and previous systems.

Power up the system and watch what happens. When the water level in the overflow box drops suddenly, close the valve on the siphon till water just flows in the open channel. E.G. rather than try to mess with any current adjustment, start over from scratch.

Assuming you have not made any of the classic implementation errors, it sounds to me like it is just way out of adjustment, and the open channel is just behaving like the Durso it is: over 1/4 full of water, and it goes turbulent.

If there is a pump size issue, it will become pretty obvious with the system being overpowered (e.g. water level just keeps rising.) I doubt that is the issue here.

Rybren: Next time out, try a gate valve rather than a ball valve. Ball valves are great for on/off operation, but flow control should be accomplished with gate valves. That is what they are for. Although with just a course adjustment (ball valve) this system will work, you will find it easier to find the sweet spot with a gate valve.

[Overgrown]

Uof6: I just did the troubleshooting you suggested. Let it stabilize and here's where I'm at. I've got a solid strong siphon(pictured far right) but as you can see still have a ton of turbulence out of the open channel(middle) although it's pulling substantially less water than the full siphon. Which is hard to tell from the photo. Something else possibly noteworthy is that the open channel settles down when I remove the airline from the push lock valve on top of the cap. Why would that be?

Both my open channel and full siphon terminate about a half inch into the water line.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Overgrown

Uof6: I just did the troubleshooting you suggested. Let it stabilize and here's where I'm at. I've got a solid strong siphon(pictured far right) but as you can see still have a ton of turbulence out of the open channel(middle) although it's pulling substantially less water than the full siphon. Which is hard to tell from the photo. Something else possibly noteworthy is that the open channel settles down when I remove the airline from the push lock valve on top of the cap. Why would that be?

Both my open channel and full siphon terminate about a half inch into the water line.

Where is the water level in the overflow box? Possibly in transitional flow, (heading to siphon) kink/partial occulsion in the air vent line... just thinking...

[Overgrown]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Where is the water level in the overflow box? Possibly in transitional flow, (heading to siphon) kink/partial occulsion in the air vent line... just thinking...

Water level is right at the top of the downturned Ell's. And the bottom of the downturned Ell's is approx 3/4".(not sure if that's relevant)

Only other thing I can think of is that I couldn't find 1.5" street 90's so I went with 2" ABS and used transition cement and adapted them down. Is it possible that the 2" street elbows to the 1.5" are causing issues?

[Overgrown]

Water level

[Rybren]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Rybren: Next time out, try a gate valve rather than a ball valve. Ball valves are great for on/off operation, but flow control should be accomplished with gate valves. That is what they are for. Although with just a course adjustment (ball valve) this system will work, you will find it easier to find the sweet spot with a gate valve.

Yeah, I found out the hard way and I'm too lazy to swap the ball valve out. It works fine once you get the hang of it.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Overgrown

Water level

You had a thought that the flow rate from the pump was too much for the system. A 1.5" line with a 1.5" bulkhead, should be able to handle ~3000gph (allowing 20% friction loss) @ 24" drop, and greater @ 36" drop. Of course a 1" bulkhead would allow ~1500gph at a 24" inch drop. The question here would be what size bulkheads, and what is the pump actually able to send up to the tank (realistically; not what the flow chart says.)

The sanitary tee really does not have much affect on the system. It reduces turbulence in the tee as opposed to a "straight" tee, but that is about it. Larger size, and ABS should not have any negative impact. Just FYI: Spears, Nibco, and Charlotte Pipe and Foundry make sch 40 DWV sanitary tees in 1.25" and larger. A wise LFS that caters to high end reef systems, should carry them, but they generally do not. There is a LFS in San Diego that used too, not sure if they still do. They (1.5") are pretty easy to find online however, but not at Home Depot or other big box stores.

Remedial refresher:

As you know, a Durso, (what the open channel is) only handles so much flow. For a 1.5" it is somewhere around 350gph or so, or the point when the water in the pipe occupies more than 1/4 of the cross-sectional area. So, the reason the open channel is bubbling away is because it is handling too much of the total flow.

The balance needs to be shifted back toward the siphon, and the flow reduced in the open channel. To reduce the flow in the open channel, you need to lower the water level in the overflow, with the valve on the siphon, which will in turn increase the flow in the siphon.

Water in the open channel will start flowing when the water level reaches the point in the TEE, where the water heads down. This point is BELOW the horizontal center line of the elbow. (perpendicular to the main drain line.) The only height needed above that is that which will maintain the siphon. E.G. prevent a vortex from forming at the siphon inlet.

As you can tell, I am still seeing this as an adjustment issue, because so far I haven't heard of or seen any issue with the drain system itself, other than too much flow in the open channel. That equals water level. (or siphon not fully started, related to implementation errors that I am not seeing in this case.)

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

I prefer a discussion.

Please take it someplace else

This thread is for the support of an overflow system.

Tangential comments and cordial conversation are certainly welcome, but outright debates where one or more participants are willfully committing intellectual dishonesty for the sole purposes of perpetuating a fight are not.

If you guys want to beat each other up over RE sumps, then by all means start a thread in the equipment forum and go for it.

[Ted_C]

Update on my overflow:

I know this is no longer a beananimal design since I have 4 drains instead of three - but I did want to send shoutouts out to Bean and Uncle for all of their great advice in this thread. That advice allowed me to achieve my desired result of a silent overflow with lots of turnover flow in my 310.

My modification to the beananimal design is an extra gated siphon drain to help alleviate what the regular bean animal couldn't handle.

I am running two DC12000's at around 70% of maximum flow. I figure I am getting ~ 4K GPH Turnover. I have been running this since March 11th of this year.

My drains terminate around 3 inches under the surface. I drilled 1/2" holes in the pipe 1" below the water surface to ensure the siphon could start up (Since these are in filter socks - I wanted the pipes to terminate in a smooth surface to not rip up the filter socks so much).

[lexzbuddy]

I have been trying to set up my bean overflow but it's noisy as hell.

I get the main line to go full syphon and after a couple of minutes, it's totally bubble free and silent. I had to drill a couple of holes just below the surface of the water at the outlet in the sump to ensure that the air was purged to allow the syphon to form, (I read about that earlier in this thread and it worked).

The secondary line has a hole in the cap with a 6mm Pneumatic fitting and hose to prevent it from going full syphon. It is above the water when the primary is in full syphon so air can get in. This line is making a huge amount of noise and is the problem, (it's the one that is noisy at any rate and I perceive it as he problem).

The emergency overflow is fully open and clear of the water throughout. Obviously not an issue.


If I open the primary fully, it manages to keep up with my return pump on its own and will eventually overtake it and the syphon will break. It will keep doing this until I close the valve to restrict it a bit.

I have tried varying the main syphon's flow rate with its valve to try to mitigate the noise being produced by the secondary line. Small incremental changes to see if there was a sweet spot.

I have tried fully closing the secondary and letting the emergency line take over with the excess. This results in a slight trickle going down and you can hear it trickling into the sump from the open end. It has no problem taking up the slack but it is a little noisy as one would expect, being open to the atmosphere and all.

When I crack open the secondary, it starts all over again. There's a slug of water behind the closed valve, upon opening it fires through to the sump then you get gurgling, bubbling noises coming from the line. Bubbles come out of the line continuously when entering the sump. The hose outlet is below the water so it isn't splashing about, just in case anyone may have thought it was that.
I have tried to incrementally vary it's position but it doesn't seem to help.

Do you think drilling a couple of small holes in the outlet of the secondary as per my primary may help?

I'm a bit stumped at this point. Any help greatly appreciated.


I have used 28mm pipework throughout.
Swept Tees with threaded caps at the inlet, (hoping they would be less turbulent)
My return is a DC 4000 liter/hour pump, variable speed.
Top of tank is about 5 feet to weir inlet.

[Ted_C]

Originally Posted by lexzbuddy

The secondary line has a hole in the cap with a 6mm Pneumatic fitting and hose to prevent it from going full syphon. It is above the water when the primary is in full syphon so air can get in. This line is making a huge amount of noise and is the problem, (it's the one that is noisy at any rate and I perceive it as he problem).

Is it the noise of the air going through the tube or the water in the pipe that's causing your complaint?

Noise of the air through the tube: get a bigger airline (mine's 3/8" - nearly 10mm). Or - maybe you engage the airtube in your open channel (during startup) before you engage the emergency drain? The emergency drain should be triggering before the airline tube triggers.

Water in the pipe - divert more water through your siphon. Open up the siphon a bit more or raise the inlet for the open channel a little bit.

[lexzbuddy]

Thanks Ted, I shall have a go at that.

The noise is coming from air mixing with water in the open channel.

Raising the open channel will be difficult but, I suppose needs must. I will need to do a bit of cutting of pipework. Ho hum, such is life.

Again, many thanks for your help, greatly appreciated.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by lexzbuddy

I have been trying to set up my bean overflow but it's noisy as hell.

I get the main line to go full syphon and after a couple of minutes, it's totally bubble free and silent. I had to drill a couple of holes just below the surface of the water at the outlet in the sump to ensure that the air was purged to allow the syphon to form, (I read about that earlier in this thread and it worked).

Should not be necessary to drill holes in the siphon in order to get the air to purge. A system that follows the basic design principles of the BA system, does not require such modifications. Only systems that do not follow the basic design principles require band aids to get them to function.

The secondary line has a hole in the cap with a 6mm Pneumatic fitting and hose to prevent it from going full syphon. It is above the water when the primary is in full syphon so air can get in. This line is making a huge amount of noise and is the problem, (it's the one that is noisy at any rate and I perceive it as he problem).

This description is a bit "obfuscated." To be clear, the inlet to the air vent line should NEVER be under water at any time, unless both the siphon and dry emergency have failed. This includes during startup. The inlet to the air vent line should be higher than the inlet to the dry emergency. There is no relation to the siphon.

The emergency overflow is fully open and clear of the water throughout. Obviously not an issue.

Ok. However, is the inlet to the dry emergency high enough to develop enough "start head pressure" in the overflow box to fully purge the air out of the siphon during startup? Water should rise, and flow in the dry emergency during startup, and when the air is purged from the siphon, the water level drops. If this does not occur, or the open channel takes the flow instead of the dry emergency, the system is not starting right, and adjusting the system for proper operation can be frustrating.

If I open the primary fully, it manages to keep up with my return pump on its own and will eventually overtake it and the syphon will break. It will keep doing this until I close the valve to restrict it a bit.

I have tried varying the main syphon's flow rate with its valve to try to mitigate the noise being produced by the secondary line. Small incremental changes to see if there was a sweet spot.

I have tried fully closing the secondary and letting the emergency line take over with the excess. This results in a slight trickle going down and you can hear it trickling into the sump from the open end. It has no problem taking up the slack but it is a little noisy as one would expect, being open to the atmosphere and all.

When I crack open the secondary, it starts all over again. There's a slug of water behind the closed valve, upon opening it fires through to the sump then you get gurgling, bubbling noises coming from the line. Bubbles come out of the line continuously when entering the sump. The hose outlet is below the water so it isn't splashing about, just in case anyone may have thought it was that.
I have tried to incrementally vary it's position but it doesn't seem to help.

Do you think drilling a couple of small holes in the outlet of the secondary as per my primary may help?

I'm a bit stumped at this point. Any help greatly appreciated.

All symptoms of systems that fall outside the basic design principles of the BA system.

My question is, what is not done according to the basic design principles with your system? Most all problems are solved with this system by following the basic design principles that were not followed in the first place.

I have used 28mm pipework throughout.
Swept Tees with threaded caps at the inlet, (hoping they would be less turbulent)
My return is a DC 4000 liter/hour pump, variable speed.
Top of tank is about 5 feet to weir inlet.

But what is the actual drop height or "head height" from surface of water in the overflow, and surface of water in the sump? And what is the head height from the surface of water in the tank, to the surface of the water in the sump. These are the numbers that have relevance. Affects the drain capacity, but not necessarily how high the water level in the overflow box needs to rise to purge the air in the siphon, but it can.

Part of your problem is the size of the plumbing you are using for the open channel. 28mm (not any better than 25mm; e.g. ~1" and 1.1", is too small for a practical quiet Durso. The smallest practical size is 1.25" (~ 30mm. 31.something to be closer,) It is very difficult, to keep a Durso this small quiet.

Also, increasing the amount of air in the standpipe (e.g. increasing the size of the air vent line or increasing the hole size,) will not solve the problem. This allows more air into the line, meaning that less water can be in the line and have it still be quiet. The standpipe has to be < 1/4 full of water, or it is in turbulent flow, (air and water mixing.) This is what creates the noise.

[BlueRoofTang]

If you have three separate drains, think this through by process of elimination...and lets look at facts:

The siphon line isn't making noise when it's full and siphoning...because there is no air in the line.

The open channel is making noise because it has water and air in it.
-Water displaces air, which can then move and make noise.
-Water moving can make noise when air is present.

So the problem lies in that... you have too much water flowing into the open channel line. It then means noise from water moving and/or noise from the air being displaced by the water.

The fix: Less water in the open channel line. You probably need to open the valve in the siphon line just slightly.

If that's not it, your problem may be in the height of the elbows, as mentioned above.

[rwgarrison]

I'm brand new to the saltwater reef hobby. I have had a couple different freshwater tanks through the years - but that is it. I was given a 75 Gallon Tank with stand so now I've been reading and reading and reading. The tank came with 2 drains through the back and the return was an over the top.



I have decided to remove the plumbing and drill 2 more holes so I can put in a Silent and Failsafe Overflow System (using an internal overflow box) reusing one of the existing holes. I plan on using the second existing hole for the return, probably using loc-line. Here is the back of the tank with the plumbing removed:



Below is a drawing I put together that shows where I plan to drill the new holes and it also shows the outline of the overflow box. I'm planning on making the overflow box 3 inches deep (not shown). It is not coast to coast due to the other already existing hole.



Looking for confirmation that I'm approaching this correctly and if not, what should I be doing differently. I understand that I still need to specify the plumbing itself, and will do that as I move forward. Thanks.

Ron

[rwgarrison]

As I think about this further... Would I be better off doing a narrow coast to coast internally and mount an external overflow box around the two existing holes and put the piping there? Will the uneven existing holes cause me problems as the water flows to the external box? Then stay with an over the top return. Thanks.

Ron

[BlueRoofTang]

I don't know what the previous owner of that tank was thinking... really odd placement of holes.

The problem is that you can't really use the lower one for a good drain, and if you use it as a return, it will siphon a lot of the water out of the tank in the event of a power failure.

I would suggest two options:

1) Put an elbow inside the tank, upwards, or some loc-line near the water surface. This will effectively put your return up higher and help with siphoning in a power outage.

2) Put a bulkhead and a plug in the lower one. Then you can drill your return wherever you want it.

As far as the drain, try to use one of the higher of the holes for one of the three required for a Synergy Ghost.

[rwgarrison]

Thanks for the feedback - yes that is what I originally was thinking of doing. Use the upper of 2 holes as 1 of my 3 for the drain. And use the lower hole for the return with a loc line up to the surface to minimize siphon issues in the event of a power loss.

Now another question. What if I did this instead. Instead of using an internal overflow I use an external overflow.

So - I would install a coast to coast box for skimming - maybe inch or inch and a half from the rear glass and deep enough to encompass both existing holes. This would provide skimming and the water would flow out the two existing holes into an external box wide enough to cover both holes. I would have 3 holes in the bottom of the external box for the drain pipes. This approach would require no more drilling on the tank itself.

For the return - I would probably just go over the top.

Would the offset of the existing holes cause issues in the water flow to the rear overflow box?

Ron

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by rwgarrison

Thanks for the feedback - yes that is what I originally was thinking of doing. Use the upper of 2 holes as 1 of my 3 for the drain. And use the lower hole for the return with a loc line up to the surface to minimize siphon issues in the event of a power loss.

Now another question. What if I did this instead. Instead of using an internal overflow I use an external overflow.

So - I would install a coast to coast box for skimming - maybe inch or inch and a half from the rear glass and deep enough to encompass both existing holes. This would provide skimming and the water would flow out the two existing holes into an external box wide enough to cover both holes. I would have 3 holes in the bottom of the external box for the drain pipes. This approach would require no more drilling on the tank itself.

For the return - I would probably just go over the top.

Would the offset of the existing holes cause issues in the water flow to the rear overflow box?

Ron

I worked with pass through holes around 9 or so years ago... not worth the effort. The last system I built using the pass-through concept worked, (and adhered to the basic design principles of the BA system) but really was not worth the extra effort involved. (building an external box.) The subsequent "fad" or "race" to stuff Bean's system into the smallest box possible is fraught with issues, as shown by the required modifications to get the Synergy overflow to work at all. It still does not adhere to the design principles of BA's system, and does not really work the same. This makes trouble shooting a matter of fixing what does not adhere to the basic design principles.

By leaps and bounds, your original idea in your first post is the better idea, than subsequently suggested following. Run the return over the top, (the best performing return) and plug the oddball hole (with a plugged bulkhead.) You can pretty much be assured that it will work out of the box, without having to mess with it.