Dinoflagellates.

[karimwassef]

so you know I used to have dinos ... but now there's really no sign of them in my system.

Until I set up this secondary tank.. and now it looks like they're in that tank only? the rest of the tank looks great.. and the same with the sump, etc... just this one new tank with CFL bulbs over it.





is it my imagination?

I know it's a black tub and brown stringy stuff on it, so it's not so easy to see, but I think this is localized dinos?

[bertoni]

I can't tell what is growing there, but I probably wouldn't be very concerned. The different lighting and flow likely is encouraging different organisms to grow in that part of the system.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by taricha

I wondered about your ID as well. Can't think of anyone else who had them. Pretty unusual to have a weird one like that.
I've looked a little bit at your pics and vids, I don't have a better ID.
I wonder if there is something cheap that could be used to stain the cellulose theca to help ID.

I could try a stain. I have a gram neg and positive kit.

I wouldn't be surprised if my ID is wrong. It's just the closest I've found by looks. I also wouldn't be surprised if I'm right as there are marine peridinium species.

It is a very persistent and tough dinoflagelet. Its been in my tank since 2009. Its survived many things including but not limited to uv, ozone (have ran this for many years), low salanity, high salinity, large pH drop, large pH and alk spike, and mold cleaner. I know I'm forgetting things as I am close friends with Murphy. Plus various other things I've done on purpose like algaefix, high pH, 2000+ Mg with techm, etc.

It lives everywhere, sand, rock, water column, etc. Seems to like cyano and where I can find cyano I know I will find it. It does release at night. So, if I keep cyano at bay I don't ever visually see it. So, I've never worried about it as I found that to be easy.

[karimwassef]

I'm becoming very disenfranchised with high output CFL to grow algae or chaeto.

[DNA]

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I've seen the exact same thing in a local tank and mentioned it several times in this thread.
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Originally Posted by karimwassef

so you know I used to have dinos ... but now there's really no sign of them in my system.

Until I set up this secondary tank.. and now it looks like they're in that tank only? the rest of the tank looks great.. and the same with the sump, etc... just this one new tank with CFL bulbs over it.





is it my imagination?

I know it's a black tub and brown stringy stuff on it, so it's not so easy to see, but I think this is localized dinos?

[DNA]

Originally Posted by taricha

BTW: Did we know that scientific lit has been looking for, but still can't find any evidence of ostreopsis mixotrophy.
Wonder if we could get by just treating it like a photoautotroph.

When I restarted my tank last time I was forced to use rocks that I knew would come with Ostreopsis on them. Lit with 7% of my normal reef lighting for weeks they quickly grew a bio mass that I was certain to be ostis. I did not even bother to take samples but I've got pictures.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by DNA

When I restarted my tank last time I was forced to use rocks that I knew would come with Ostreopsis on them. Lit with 7% of my normal reef lighting for weeks they quickly grew a bio mass that I was certain to be ostis. I did not even bother to take samples but I've got pictures.

You and your scary super-mutant ostis that are immune to UV and don't need light. For real, please don't ever ship your stuff to the US.
:-)
I know they've found structures (lipid drops and starch grains) that can store enough nutrients for several generations of ostis, but that seems extreme. We knew they were good at exploiting reef lighting, maybe they were good at exploiting barely any light too.

[nvladik]

Originally Posted by taricha

You and your scary super-mutant ostis that are immune to UV and don't need light. For real, please don't ever ship your stuff to the US.
:-)
I know they've found structures (lipid drops and starch grains) that can store enough nutrients for several generations of ostis, but that seems extreme. We knew they were good at exploiting reef lighting, maybe they were good at exploiting barely any light too.

No need to ship it to US, I've got some. Mine couldn't give a crap about UV or blackouts.

[africangrey]

so what is the verdict of using Metroplex and aquazole?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by africangrey

so what is the verdict of using Metroplex and aquazole?

There's definitely a reaction to at least many varieties in the short term during dosing and immediately after. Way to early to know long term or against all variations.

I'm at the of a 10 day double dose treatment. So, we'll see.

[jason2459]

And keep in mind if it is actually possible to eradicate dinos entirely from a system, which I really don't know if that's possible, if you add anything at all could reintroduce dinos back in. They can be in the guts of animals so would be hard to pre-treat.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by jason2459

And keep in mind if it is actually possible to eradicate dinos entirely from a system, which I really don't know if that's possible, if you add anything at all could reintroduce dinos back in. They can be in the guts of animals so would be hard to pre-treat.

True, but a FW dip should kill any dinos that touch the water.

[StrangeDejavu]

Originally Posted by taricha

True, but a FW dip should kill any dinos that touch the water.

This is something I was tossing around the idea of. If dino cell walls burst instantly when exposed to FW, couldn't you dip corals in DI water for 5 - 10 seconds when first bringing them home? Softies/LPS at least, from what I understand SPS don't do well at all in a FW dip.

[karimwassef]

what's the point? It's not a coral infection. It's a tank infection... your ecosystem is sick, not any one coral.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by taricha

True, but a FW dip should kill any dinos that touch the water.

Maybe, I wouldn't put it past some kinds surviving that, but it wouldn't touch any that are working through the gut of some critter.

[StrangeDejavu]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

what's the point? It's not a coral infection. It's a tank infection... your ecosystem is sick, not any one coral.

Dinos appear to be acquired, not something that's just "always there" and grows when conditions are favorable. I beat them in my main tank, everything was spotless. Then I bought some frags from the store my LR came from and within a few days, dinos again. The point would be to eliminate adding dinos back to a system that is currently dino-free.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by taricha

True, but a FW dip should kill any dinos that touch the water.

Originally Posted by jason2459

Maybe, I wouldn't put it past some kinds surviving that, but it wouldn't touch any that are working through the gut of some critter.

Case in point Peridinium which I keep coming up with for what I have that has survived so many things in my system.

http://darwin.wcupa.edu/faculty/boet...lab%202015.pdf

Peridinium – Although most dinoflagellates are marine, Peridinium is a biflagellate unicell that may live in both freshwater and marine environments.



Edit: I need to get my stains out
"These primitive nuclear features are not visible unless special stains were employed."

[jason2459]

"At the light microscopy level Peridinium is most readily recognized by its “armor” (you might
think of them as fierce, armored plankters) and flagellar position. The armor, composed of
cellulosic plates, may bear various types of ornamentation. The two flagellae emerge through a
lateral pore (unlike the apical flagellum in euglenoids) with one flagellum extends as a cingulum
in a groove called the girdle surrounding the organism. The other, shorter flagellum, extends
posteriorly in a groove referred to as the sulcus. The two flagellae are both synchronized to direct
the organism’s movement with the cingular beat propelling the cell forward and the shorted
flagellum “steering” the cell. Though most dinoflagellates lack the light sensitive stigma,
Peridinium is an exception and possesses a plastid bound eyespot near the location of the
flagellar emergence. Peridinium reproduces both sexually and asexually. During sexual
reproduction the theca or armor is being discarded (similar to a molting process) after which
nuclear and cytoplasmic divisions occur. "

Mine are exactly like that and explains what I see sometimes as empty shell casings

[jason2459]

BOOM

I was wrong

I've been trying to get positive ID's for many things I find under the scope. For this larger dino I haven't stopped looking for a positive id of it. Closest I've found was some type of Peridinium. I am wrong unless it too or a type of it has two longitudinal flagella. I haven't seen anything to indicate that any var. of it does.

It's looking much more likely to be a type of Alexandrium. Which also has plates, a girdle and transverse undilipodium but has two of those longitudinal flagella. More researching.


Under high contrast, closed iris, and green filter. Can barely make out the two flagella coming out. Otherwise it looks like one the entire time.


Video that came from

[jason2459]

Run down Update
Prep

• Dumped in enough food to cause a massive outbreak of cyano and dinos that would normally last at least 1-2 months

Before Dosing

• Turned off Automatic Water Changes
• Took out GAC (would have taken out any GFO too if I had any)
• No ozone (same would apply to UV or dosing H2O2)
• Cut carbon dosing in half
• Tuned down the skimmer but kept it aerating the water
• Kept ATS online
• Kept ATO online
• Kept feeding as normal (a lot)

Day 1 (Night of June 28th)

• 5 grams Metroplex dosed
• (This works out to around 250mg per 10 gallons per day.)

Day 2 (Night of June 29th)

• 5 grams Metroplex dosed

Day 3 (June 30th)

• 5 grams (20 pills) Aquazole dosed
• sample under microscope shows active peridinium dinos

Day 4 (July 1st)

• Added filter sock.(100 micron felt. 4" ring by 14" length)
• Blew of all surfaces
• Changed sock
• Brought skimmer back online
• 5 grams Aquazole dosed

Day 5 (July 2nd)

• Changing filter sock 3 times per day
• Blowing off all surfaces in the evening
• Minor grow back of visual dinos
• extremely minor to no growth back of cyano
• 5 grams Aquazole dosed

Day 6 (July 3rd)

• 5 grams Aquazole dosed.
• Very minor growth again.
• Changing out 100 micron felt sock 3x per day still.
• Blowing off all surfaces at night

Day 6 (night of July 4th)

• Very minor growth again.
• Changing out 100 micron felt sock 3x per day still.
• Blowing off all surfaces at night

• Samples show no recognizable or moving peridinium dinos. A lot more much smaller flagelet phytoplankton of some kind.
• No dosing done

Day 7 (July 5th)

• 5 grams Metroplex dosed
• No blowing off of surfaces done
• Skimmer still online
• Filter sock changed out twice
• Very minor amounts of visual dino growth on rocks

Day 8 (July 6th)

• 5 grams Metroplex dosed
• No blowing off of surfaces done
• Skimmer still online
• Filter sock changed out twice
• Extremly minor amounts of visual dino growth on rocks
• No real change to nitrates or phosphates through out. Possible slight increase in PO4 tontoni

Day 9 (July 7th)

• I didn't blow anything off again
• Changed filter socks twice today
• Found some mobile but slight off looking peridinium dinos
• Cleaned off ATS where the dinos were found
• Dosed 5 grams MetroPlex (dose 8 fyi)

Day 10 (July 8th)

• Dosed 5 grams MetroPlex (dose 9)
• Changed filter socks twice
• No blowing off surfaces

Day 11 (July 9th)

• Dosed 5 grams MetroPlex (last dose #10)
• Changed Filter socks twice
• No blowing off surfaces
• No noticeable difference in dino bubbles (extremely small amount)
• Some very minor cyano growth

Day 12 (July 10th)

• I was going to start blowing off surfaces today but failed to get the time
• Filter sock lasted all day from 7am to the time I changed it sometime after 11pm and wasn't overflowing. First time its lasted more then 12 hours with out overflowing.
• Nothing else has changed and no more dosing
• The tiny amount of cyano growth noticed yesterday didn't get any larger or spread anywhere else
• Noticed a very tiny amounts of dino bubbles.

• a LOT less of the main dino's I see when I have a dino explosion. Those that I do see are now almost all seem to be effected in some way.
• What I think are encysted cells I think I've seen a couple that have been penetrated to at least the point that bacteria is attacking the insides.
• The other smaller type of flagellate I have seems unaffected so far (I think it's a type of Amphidinium but also believe it to be harmles)

Day 13, 14, 15

• No change in equipment used or maintenance
• Filter sock changed twice a day
• Reduced visual cyano and dinos to the point of having to look extremely hard for them.

Day 16 (July 14th)

• No visual cyano seen anywhere
• Extremely small amounts of bubbles indicating possible dinos still linguring but have to look very hard for them
• Blew off all surfaces and changed filter sock 3 times
• Took sample from filter sock to look under microscope again
  • There is still some active larger dinos and smaller dinos (possibly Amphidinium)
  • Possbly other dinos or stages of maturity. Researching this
  • Positively removed peridinium as a possible ID for the larger dino. Possibly Alexandrium.

So far I don't see that this will permanently erradicate all dinos but that would also be extremely hard to do anyways in the long term. Anything at all you add to your tank can easily reintroduce them. They could be encysted that could survive some dips and could be encysted working through the guts of something like copepods, corals, fish, anything.

BUT the fact that with this treatment I saw very quick results on even day 3 and dramatic reaults with in 2 weeks I think says something and potential. What I did and have seen several times before would typically have seen the before metro outbreak look for well over a month to several months. I could very easily be doing something thats not allowing full erradication but will keep monitoring for a full 30 days(and longer really) keep taking samples to look under the microscope to see if theres any more changes.

[jason2459]

I would possibly even suggest turning off an ATS, macro fuge, algae reactors or any kind of algae growth areas. The ATS became an absolute playground and refuge for my dinos for this. Its the one place I knew to find any active ones though their count became a lot less there as well.

I would do that and not run any GAC, Ozone, UV, H2O2, or any other kind of oxidizing agents or methods.

I would turn down the skimmer so its not removing any water that needs replenished with fresh saltwater but keeps aerating the water.

I would stop water changes and dosing of at least iron products even removing GFO. And limit dosing to just Ca, Mg, and alk if required.

Cut down on carbon dosing if doing so or even stop all together.

Basically anything that will reduce or remove the metronidazole or feed or help phototrophs or heterotrophs as dinos could be either depending on the type.

I would have added the filter socks from the very beginning. But not blown off surfaces daily or at the beginning as I saw an increased amount of encysted dinos. This could drive them under the substrate where medication may not be as effective. Maybe blow of surfaces 2-3 times a week. Just a thought on that. Toxins may be a concern and not blowing off the rocks daily may actually help reduce that chance so the dino doesn't feel as stressed or threatened? Don't know.

Otherwise 10 days was probably a good idea and didn't see or haven't seen yet any major negative reactions.

[Squidmotron]

So does anyone have an explanation for why metro would work?

[DNA]

Has anyone come across something concrete about how the poisons persist in our tanks?
Do they keep building up since our tank water gets replaced really slowly or do they degrade naturally?
We have no way of measuring this and poison tends to be bad for coral health.

If they can persist through boiling I'd bet they build up.

[Livingjewels]

The boiling process for me has got rid of them, my tank has now got back to normality.

The water is now able to go back to frequent water changes without the fear of dino explosions.

I think it's good doing the current regime of experiments to see if you can beat them, but a week of boiling batches of water for me is the way to go..if you really want to beat them.

Even if there are toxins or poisons present, I've had no adverse effect on any tank livestock..so if any are present, each week they being discharged from my tank by frequent water changes..

I've been dino free now for a good six weeks..and my tank now looks amazing again.

It ll take a while but I'm sure when you guys get fed up, you may want to give my method a go you'll get your tank back to how it should be and you'll be able to enjoy the reef keeping hobby again.

All the best

Paul

[DNA]

Breathing the steam can land you in a hospital.
Do NOT boil dinos.

What did you do exactly?