Bleach vs Acid

[holdyourlight]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I'd just rinse them well with tapwater.

brown gunk only comes off when scrubbed

they've been rinsed many times throughout the process and water alone wont get the stuff off

[bertoni]

Hmm, I'm not sure what the brown is, but I probably wouldn't worry about it.

[holdyourlight]

Originally Posted by bertoni

Hmm, I'm not sure what the brown is, but I probably wouldn't worry about it.

i'll try to get some pics up tonight

[holdyourlight]

so the bleach and acid did not work for me

i let the rock soak in bleach in 10:1 for 24 hours and then 5:1 for 24 hours

rinsed a few times

i then did an hour acid bath, in 10:1 and then another hour

i rinsed twice and let sit in buckets of RODI for another day

now i am rinsing again and want to start cycling but.....

i have a rinsing station set up of 5 buckets filled with RODI water and still by the time the rock hits the 5th bucket the water is still turning brown

[bertoni]

I'm not sure what the brown is, but I would worry very much about it. It might be some organic debris or perhaps just mineral. Calcium carbonate deposits sometimes get tinted a bit brown.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What type of acid did you use?

[holdyourlight]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

What type of acid did you use?

muriatic

i took all of the rocks to the quarter car wash too get all of the gunk off with the power sprayer

note: this is not fun when its below zero degrees outside

now when i swish the rocks around in rodi water the water doesnt turn nearly as brown but it still turns a little brown

is it safe to assume this is because no matter how clean the rock is it will always turn the water a little brown if you swish vigorously enough?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know why it might turn the water brownish now, but I'd probably use it.

[graveyardworm]

Originally Posted by holdyourlight

muriatic

i took all of the rocks to the quarter car wash too get all of the gunk off with the power sprayer

note: this is not fun when its below zero degrees outside

Dont most car wash stations recycle the water? Is there a concern that contaminates like detergents and waxes might still be in the water?

[Dejavu]

This Thread has been nominated for January's Thread of the Month!

Congratulations!

[bheron]

cool! I'll have to dig up my pics including the latest of the rock in the tank.

holdyourlight - awesome approach using the carwash to blast the rocks beforehand! hahaha.

[elijaher]

This is a good thread.

[mth1993]

First I want to say wow thank you to everyone who posted I hve read this post 2 times front to back. I am in the final steps of putting together my second system a 300g in wall unit. my first system had lots of issues. I want to make sure I start my new system with clean rock.

I thought I was done before I saw this post. I left the new rock to try in a box for a few months. Then I scrubbed it and pulled what I could off. The next step was soaking in 2 baths of 50% vinegar and tap water. I scrubbed and use a toothbrush after each bath. I am starting to worry that I am taking off too much rock.

Then I let it try brushed off the vinegar crystals and did 2 day soaks in tap water with a slow stream of constant new water the full time.

I think it is clean. I have seaded the tank with live agro sand and plan on buying corals so I think this may be clean enouth.

Does anyone think I need to do the bleach bath?

[bertoni]

I wouldn't bother.

[redfishsc]

Bleach is a reef-keeper's best friend. It's our "second chance" in a bottle .


Anytime I need to bleach a batch of rock, I just pour in about 4-8 cups per 30-50 gallons of soak water (using a Justin Wilson measuring cup, if you know what I mean).

Next day, check. If I have a swimming pool chlorine test kit handy (dirt cheap at Walmart) I test for chlorine. If it's not "off the charts" high, I hit it with a few more cups---- meaning there was a ton of organic crap in the rock.


After a couple days, I toss all the soak water, rinse the rock with a garden hose, refill, and hit the whole thing with a strong dose of dechlorinator.

Soak overnight.

Test the next day for chlorine. Hit again with dechlorinator if ANYTHING shows up on the chlorine test.

First critters in the new tank are always something like hermits. If there is ANY chlorine residual in the water, the hermits will let you know.

[bheron]

Hi all,

Wow, alot of really great input on this thread. Much more than I expected to get. As promised I have some pics of my process. Thought I'd post them along with a "re-update" of my update in Nov.

Background

B/c my tank was up and running with a few fish and coral, I did this in stages so as to always keep some live rock in the tank. More importantly, I did it for seeding purposes - want to easily seed the cleaned rock.

Specifically, I did it in two batches (a total of about 250 pounds).

Here's what a batch the rock looked like right before I started (keep in mind this is AFTER I tried to "cook" it a few times - at one point almost every inch of rock was covered in thick hair algae )



Step 1: Bleaching - Round 1 - As I have learned from this thread, bleach will "Oxidize" organic material on the rock, which basically means it vaporizes anything that is alive or once was (of course the gurus on here let me know if I have that right)

First, I soaked the rock in a tub of water and bleach. About a 3-1 ratio seemed plenty. Luckily my local Costco was selling it for 3 large bottles for like $15! I say a 3-1 ratio b/c after a few days I smelled less and less bleach and no bubbles. For awhile the water was yellow and some tiny bubbles (oxidation?) came up.

I wound up leaving it sit for well over a week simply b/c I didn't have time to work on it. By then all of the bleach smell in my basement was gone and there were no more bubbles. Occasionally I'd swish a few pieces to see if anything came off. Almost always the water turned cloudy.

Eventually I removed all the rock, swishing it as I took it out. The result was a thick layer of sediment in the bottom of the tub. I'm guessing this was just rock/calcerous material and not dead life. The bleach killed anything alive and pretty much dissolved it.



Step 2 - Bleaching - Round 2

Yep, I rinsed the tub and started all over - did a 2nd round of soaking in the tub, just for kicks. No idea if it did anything or helped. Did another round of swishing as I took it out.

Once again the tub was filled with sediment, but much less. At this point I'm think its really just residual rock/sand and if I kept bleaching I'd keep seeing this sediment. And the rock definitely smelled. My wife has a blood hound nose on the front of her face so I asked her to check. She said, "Ewww, smells like the pool at the YMCA!". So I knew I did good.

Step 3 - Playing with Acid - The reason for this, as I've learned on this thread, was to try to remove an outer layer of Phosphate that might be on the rock. Interesting thought so I did it.

After risning I filled the tub with a mixture of water and acid. Used Muriatic Acid from the pool store at a 10-1 ratio. The ratio seemed to work good.

With gloves and goggles on, one by one I dipped each piece of rock in the tub. A TON of fizzing and bubbles occurred. For some reason the bubbles were a rust color. I noticed the rock didn't look any different or cleaner but it sure was fun :-)

Here's a shot of a 5 gallon salt bucket filled with water and acid and after dipping my rock.

The end result was a layer of crud, rust colored gook in the bottom of the bucket. So maybe it helped.

Also, I think this helped to dissolve some or all of the residual from the bleach since it didn't smell nearly as bad. Who knows?

Step 4 - Air Drying - In an effort to release any residual bleach I decided to let the rock sit in the fresh air and son - one approach I've learned here. Another approach I saw someone mention was to soak in water.

After rinsing the rock, now in RODI water, I let the it sit outside for a few days in the open air and sunlight. After 3-5 days I brought the rock inside

To see if the bleach was removed, I soaked it in a tub of RODI. I bought a pool chlorine test kit (redfishsc - wish I knew about the walmart deal!) The test showed no chlorine.

Note: My real plan was to set aside a batch of water directly from my display tank, measure all parameters (PH, etc) and put some of the rock in it, keeping it aerated and at the same temp. If there was no chlorine and the params stayed the same, I'd really know the rock was safe. But, alas, I was too eager to get moving!

So I was left with a nice batch of very clean, white, light rock. It was very chalky to the touch. I spent alot of time aquascaping the new rock using PVC pipe.





Step 5 - Test Run
Once ready I dumped it into the tank with the existing, dirty, live rock and let it sit for about 2 months. The goal was to "seed" the new base rock.

It was bright white under the lights when I first put it in. Looked Awesome!

But, as expected, eventually it started to "color" up - ie: get duller, a little brown - as life started to grow in it.


Step 6 - Rinse and Repeat - Once I felt the new rock was seeded (about 5-6 weeks), I repeated the whole process with the rest of the rock (save for about 10lbs just in case).

And after aquascaping that batch I put it in the tank and I now have a tank ful of shiny new rock :-) It was really white at first but is now starting to fade. No issues with the fish I have in the tank or with high waste levels. I'm making sure to do frequent basting of the rock to help keep it clean.


Here's a few pics - you can see the rock on the left is the 2nd batch while the set on the right is the first that I put in the tank. Notice the differnce in color. Batches were maybe a month apart.





Overall, while it took a long time - maybe 3-4 months b/c of other projects.
I'm very happy with the approach and would recommend it to anyone.


Good luck and thanks to all who participated in the effort!

[bertoni]

Wow! Thanks for the thorough update and pictures!

[mth1993]

This has been such a great thread. I had my system old system crash -top off error lowered salt to 1.010 for 2 days. Killed everything except the fish. My house smells like "the devils arm pit". I have been vinigar soaking all rock to avoid hitch hikers - gave me a lot of issues originally.

My question is are we to use bleach or chlorine? I am leaning towards chlorine since it all leave with airation unlike bleach.

Please correct anything you see wrong in the plan.

Remove all dead organics from rock and tank.
100 gal total system volume, add 3 gallons of bleach and run system for a few days before tear down - no heaters, reactiors, lights, uv, or skimmer.

NOW ROCK
Soak rock in 1:10 chlorine solution, change it and soak a second time
Airate for a week

Dip rocks for 30 min batch at a time in muratic acid and fresh water

Soak in ro water for 2 days or until PH = 7 ish.

Then move all rock to new 300g inwall tank I finished cycling 3 weeks ago.

[bertoni]

I don't know enough about handling chlorine to know how dangerous it might be. Bleach is tricky enough, though, IMO.

[jasony816]

I have been following the thread and I am also in the process of cooking my rocks since im upgrading my tank but it is a long and slow process w/o using any chemicals. My question is can you just soak the rock in ro/di salt water with vinegar to get rid off all the algae pest on the rock?

[jlinzmaier]

Can I get a confirmation on neutralizing the two major cleaning components (bleach and muriatic acid)??

In cleaning my rock, I'd first use bleach. To remove the residual bleach I should rinse several times then soak in RO/DI water for a week or so as well as using a dechlorinator. It sounds like using the dechlorinator can be very expensive since the large amounts of bleach used contains far more chlorine than amoquel is intended to neutralize. Another option to neutralize the bleach is to rinse in RO/DI then do a dip in a muriatic acid bath. The risk here is the release of chlorine gas (I'd do this outside and stay up-wind of my project). How long would the rock need to sit in the acid bath to neutralize the bleach?? I'm guessing the answer to that question is based on the amount of bleach in/on the rock. I'm just looking for a general length of time for an acid dip to neutralize an average amount of bleach remnant - 5 minutes? two hours? two days?? To confirm that all bleach has been neutralized I can pick up a cheap Wal-Mart chlorine test kit?? I'll first soak the rock in some RO /DI water then test that water for chlorine. Does that all sound correct??

I'd then like to do a second muriatic acid dip to remove bound po4 or heavy metals (as opposed to just neutralizing the bleach). To neutralize the muriatic acid I can simply use baking soda. The determination of total acid neutralization is based on reaching a pH of 7-9. Is that right??

Does neutralizing the acid also prevent it from being an organic carbon source for bacterial growth?? I'd hate to have a major cyano outbreak because I neutralized the effect of the acid but failed to entirely remove it thus leaving it to fuel unwanted bacterial growth.

Very much appreciate any feedback!!

Jeremy

[mth1993]

Well I waited for about an hour for a reply and then moved ahead with the chlorine. I did not see the post saying no until I was done.

I have the lr in a 35 gal tank about 30 gal full with 2 gal of Chlorine, Since the lr takes up so much room I am going to drain the fluid and replce with pure water today. keep going until chlorine test 0 try and brush the rock, then acid dip with 1:10 muratic acid. Or is the rock toast and I should just stop?

I also put 2 gal into a total of about 130gal system (72 display + 60 sump both full) I had pulled everything living out. Which was 6 fish. Plan there is to pull all water tomorrow, fill with water run 2 days, drain and repeat until my chlorine test reads 0. Then break down and put in garage.

I had to move fast my family was actully talking about hotel due to the stink.

It was true luck that I had a 300 gal in wall system cycled and waiting for fish.

ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE APPRICIATED?

But after the death of all corals, mushrooms, crabs, snails and my fav rtba basicky 4 years worth of tank care flushed away I am so sad I do not want to put much in my 300 gal. But it is a show case in the wall of my living room I have been working on since March. The new tank has a neptune apex and I have already installed the float switches - top off will be automated and I am going to purchase the salanity sensor.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's no reason to think the rock is toast.

It should be dead but clean rock at the end.

[jlinzmaier]

Randy.

What are your thoughts on the questions I posted about neutralizing the bleach and then neutralizing the muriatic acid?? Post #196

Jeremy

[jlinzmaier]

One last question:

I'm using dried rock and I've been using the typical curing method for about 8 weeks to remove the dried on organics (lots of flow, lots of heaters, and strong skimming). There is still a lot of brown material on the rock but it doesn't easily scrub off. There is also many crevices with old dead sponges that pretty much turn to mush now when you touch them (the trouble is getting them out from all the nooks and crannies).

Would a bleach soak be of any benefit for my rock??Would it further decompose any organic material on the rocks surface or should I just go ahead with the muriatic acid??

Thanks.

Jeremy