Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Steve Tyree

TwinFallz,

Actually it was the constant posting about algae on a cryptic thread that promoted the retorts. This is basically why I do not spend much time on forums. Threads get hijacked. Gets to be impossible to keep on topic.

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges.

Are cryptic sponges selective in their take up of DOC considering sugars can vary ?

Your friend in the Philippines' unique filter feeder cryptic zone? Are you able to expand on this?
Has he created some sort of large surface area grid structure where lots of sponges can proliferate in an otherwise small sump?

[Scrubber_steve]

steve; can I get your best link for info to establishing a sponge cryptic zone -

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges.

Are cryptic sponges selective in their take up of DOC considering sugars can vary ?

Your friend in the Philippines' unique filter feeder cryptic zone? Are you able to expand on this?
Has he created some sort of large surface area grid structure where lots of sponges can proliferate in an otherwise small sump?

As I just converted a 25 year old mud/macro refugium into a mud cryptic zone refugium, I am very interested in this topic. With respect to a large surface area grid structure, eggcrate comes to mind. I used it over the mud to keep rock aerobic when I converted macro to cryptic. Instead of rock in refugium, eggcrate, that is used as a light diffusers, could be stacked up. I choose porous rock because “Pods need a home”. I think eggcrate would maximinesurfsace area

It is my goal to provide a food web for NPS corals. Some deep water gorgonions are absolutely gorgeous. If I get confident enough, I will try a Carnation coral.

PS. I just purchased two ebooks on sponges from Steve.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

As I just converted a 25 year old mud/macro refugium into a mud cryptic zone refugium, I am very interested in this topic. With respect to a large surface area grid structure, eggcrate comes to mind. I used it over the mud to keep rock aerobic when I converted macro to cryptic. Instead of rock in refugium, eggcrate, that is used as a light diffusers, could be stacked up. I choose porous rock because “Pods need a home”. I think eggcrate would maximinesurfsace area

It is my goal to provide a food web for NPS corals. Some deep water gorgonions are absolutely gorgeous. If I get confident enough, I will try a Carnation coral.

PS. I just purchased two ebooks on sponges from Steve.

Yeh I was thinking of stacked eggcrate.

two ebooks hey. whats the address?

[karimwassef]

I have a dedicated cryptic that I'll be dismantling in a couple of weeks... we'll see what's in there.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I have a dedicated cryptic that I'll be dismantling in a couple of weeks... we'll see what's in there.

Sounds good.
I'm guessing you'll be photo filing the evidence?

[karimwassef]

Yes. Going to try video

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Hi Tim; Sorry, but I believe that everything I wrote contradicts Delbeek and Sprung, if they suggested that the Algae Turf Farm had anything at all to do with water quality issues in the Coral Reef Exhibit. Its a complete falacy. . . .

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Hi steve.

Yes, I agree. I would like this thread to concentrate on cryptic zones & sponges . . .

I too would like to see Steve's thread stay on topic. I am happy to continue our discussion on my skimmerless thread. Karrim since you are thinking of installing an ATS you may be interested in as well. Among others, one item, Twinfallz, in the two links you posted that caught my eye was this qoute for removing the ats "and inorganic nutrient levels were low." One thing I've learned is not having enough inorganics is as much a water quality issue as having too much.

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by dz6t

I found this article by Haas.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0027973


Quote:

turf algae produced nearly twice as much DOC per unit surface area than the other benthic producers (14.0±2.8 µmol h−1 dm−2), stimulating rapid bacterioplankton growth (0.044±0.002 log10 cells h−1) and concomitant oxygen drawdown (0.16±0.05 µmol L−1 h−1 dm−2).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's probably it. Thanks for finding it!

[karimwassef]

I've been running ATSs for years now. No issues.

The next one will be 1/4 the size of a volleyball court.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Timfish

Twinfallz, in the two links you posted that caught my eye was this qoute for removing the ats "and inorganic nutrient levels were low." One thing I've learned is not having enough inorganics is as much a water quality issue as having too much.

Timfish; from your statement above, you are now misrepresenting what is actually stated in these papers in what appears to be an attempt to confirm your baseless conclusion that the Alage Turf Farm was removed for water quality issues.
The "and inorganic nutrient levels were low" you cut and pasted from 'The Coral Reef Exhibit at Reef HQ Aquarium, Townsville, Australia: Technical operations and water quality', was not referencing the ATF.

Here's what was said in the paper, Chapter 26, quote -

The Estuarine Water period (post-2002)
Water source and exchange

A significant shift occurred during 2002 when
the aquarium was closed to the public for almost
five months to maintain and upgrade the facility.
Based on the analysis of existing practices and
resulting low coral survival, this period was also
used as an important opportunity to modify
CRE operations, starting with its water source
and exchange. The driving forces behind these
changes were the obvious low coral survival
rates and the fact that calcium levels (~ 250
mg Ca2+.L-1, point readings available only) and
inorganic nutrient levels were low.
end quote.

The "and inorganic nutrient levels were low" statement is in reference to the change from pristein off shore water collection to Ross Creek water collection, not the ATF.

Further, in relation to the ATF, the paper chapter 26 states the following -

The Estuarine Water period (post-2002)
Filtration
During the same time period as the change from
oceanic water to estuarine water was occurring,
CRE filtration philosophy shifted away from the
Algal Turf Farm towards the implementation of
large-scale protein skimmers. Following several
water quality monitoring trials where sections
of the ATF were turned off, it was determined
that the ATF effects on CRE filtration were
negligible, especially when compared to the
CRE’s internal algal mass productivity. The
ATF was considered obsolete and taken offline
permanently from the CRE in late 2002

Further, from -

Ecological purification in the captive reef – natural approaches to water quality management Ashley Sharp Zoological Society of London

Algal nutrient management

Case studies

In a case study conducted within the large reef exhibit (2.8 million litres) at Reef HQ, Townsville, Australia, the total biomass of algae supported directly on the ATS screens was approximately 0.5 % of the total algal biomass within the system (Pecorelli et al., in press). Consequently when the ATS was taken offline, the ability of the mesocosm to process nitrite and nitrate was not significantly affected. Indeed orthophosphate levels were significantly lower after the removal of the ATS, suggesting that the rupturing of the algal cells during harvesting was causing orthophosphate to return to the system.

Nevertheless, the nutrient processing capabilities of algae within any exhibit will depend upon a multitude of factors such as grazing pressure and light levels, therefore the use of remote vessels such as the ATS screens and refugia remain extremely useful tools to optimize algal growth.

https://www.burgerszoo.com/media/560510/chapter-11.pdf

The Algae Turf Farm was not removed from the Coral Reef Exhibit because of water quality issues.

The Algae Turf Farm was removed because the labour intensive managment of 70 scrubber units could not be justified when they only accounted for 0.5% of the total algal biomass within the system .

I'm not interested in flogging a dead horse any further, here or on your skimmerless thread.

[karimwassef]

So I really didn't do anything to intentionally cultivate my cryptic sponges like I've done with my algae scrubbers...

but if I did want to create a monster cryptic sponge mass - what's the best way to do that assuming that I have no restrictions (space, energy, etc...)?

[Subsea]

Twin,
Both ebooks together cost $16. Go to reeffarmers.com.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Twin,
Both ebooks together cost $16. Go to reeffarmers.com.

thanks subsea, but I can only find - Volume 2 of the CMAT or Captive Maintenance Advanced Techniques series is titled "The Cryptic Zonal System - Expanding the Zonal Reproduction of Tropical Reef Platforms" for $14.99 US.

Can you help me out with the link you used to buy 'both ebooks' for $16

thanks

[Subsea]

Sorry, I can not find link at website. My PC crashed a week ago and I am somewhat lost finding data. Best I remember, I sent an email to reeffarmers@rocketmail.com, then received an invoice and then a link to ebooks.

[SAT]

Try this: http://reeffarmers.contentshelf.com/shop

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by SAT

Try this: http://reeffarmers.contentshelf.com/shop

Thanks for that link SAT.

Now I just have to work out which one to buy ????

Captive Oceans Vol 1
Captive Oceans Vol 2
Captive Oceans Package Deal
CMAT Volume 1
CMAT Volume 2
Expanded Zonal
Zonal Complete Package Deal
Zonal Intro Package Deal

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Steve Tyree

TwinFallz,

Actually it was the constant posting about algae on a cryptic thread that promoted the retorts. This is basically why I do not spend much time on forums. Threads get hijacked. Gets to be impossible to keep on topic.

And yeah, like algae, sponges have many different capabilities. You do not want boring sponges in a coral tank. Also do not think exposed zone sponges work well due to collection and transportation issues. That is why I use cryptic cave sponges. And with respect to algae I prefer coralline algae. You cannot lump all green algae under Halimeda. The fleshy macro algae species they tested was not green, but it was a fleshy algae.

Steve,
Due to the complex nature of food webs in our reef aquarium, I like understanding the effects of different participants on each other. The dynamics of competition for nutrients is an art to reefkeeping that I enjoy. I have used macros in a utilitarian capacity for 45 years. I recently read a scientific paper that described the dynamics between a hard coral, herbivore fish and macro algae. When the macro was grown in a meadow of its own kind, it grew distasteful to predatation by herbivores. When a hard coral was put into their proximity, the macro algae chemistry changed to respond to chemistry of hard coral. In responding to the hard coral, the macro lost its distasteful taste and was grazed on by herbivores.

The point is that for most reefkeepers we want compatible systems. Can macro and cryptic sponges be in the same system. Of course they can. As the Moody Blues said it so succinctly, it is “A Question of Balance”.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

I recently read a scientific paper that described the dynamics between a hard coral, herbivore fish and macro algae. When the macro was grown in a meadow of its own kind, it grew distasteful to predatation by herbivores. When a hard coral was put into their proximity, the macro algae chemistry changed to respond to chemistry of hard coral. In responding to the hard coral, the macro lost its distasteful taste and was grazed on by herbivores.

Interesting stuff subsea. do you have a link to that paper

[Subsea]

Link was on a PC that crashed a month ago, but I will continue searching.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Link was on a PC that crashed a month ago, but I will continue searching.

appreciated

[Subsea]

As I ponder on the different methods that are represented by three systems with 70 years of life. I think that the reef operator is the one constant that makes each system successful in its own way. What I have seen in Tim’s methods is a strong focus on grazing herbivore control of algae with a consistent water change protocol. I agree about janitors at all levels of maintenance. I do not completely agree that “dilution is the solution to pollution” I support aggressive substrate vacuuming which is a partial water change.

I know little about cryptic zone filtration but I have embraced it for the diversity that it brings into reef keeping. Filter feeders have always caught my attention. I love the fans and feathers.

This is a bad picture of flame scallops. There are two of them behind this sponge filter. They go where they want. I have maintained individuals for up to 18 months.

[Subsea]

I like this filter feeder better.


Don’t know why I can not post picture?

[Timfish]

This seemed appropriate for this thread:
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved
organic matter via the sponge loop

[Subsea]

Now I know why the Greek sponge fishin* fleet was located at Tarpon Springs, Florida. The Gulf of Mexico is high in nutrients. It make sense to see large sponge populations considering the nutrients coming from the many rivers emptying into it with both organic and inorganic nutrients.

Tim,
Here is a Orange Encrusting Sponge that looks red to me. What kind of DOC does it eat?

https://www.live-plants.com/orangesponge.htm