KZ Coral Snow = Chalk?

[jason2459]

MSDS and COA sheet info for the 97% stuff linked to here:
http://www.dudadiesel.com/sheets.php

The coa

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

still Using 1/8 teaspoon in 100ml RO/DI, or has the dose changed over the years?

Here's what I use and mix up. Then just shake and add a tablespoon to my 180.


Add 18tbs CaCO3 then add RODI to the 900ml line.

[2smokes]

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

KZ Coral Snow (calcium carbonate) is definitely not kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide), as even a small dry amount of kalkwasser dosed to a tank can lead to serious pH spikes.


I've been using the DIY version since this thread opened up, essentially.

If you know a litle chemistry than you know that CaCO3 is not soluble in water.Its just snake oil.All our sand and live rock or dead corals skeletons are made of calcium carbonate but that doesnt disolve in water.To disolve the CACO3 you need to add CO2 thats why you see people using calcium reactors where they melt lime stone or dead coral skeleton by using CO2.Kalkwasser on the otther hand is much better than CACO3 because that makes calcium available.Calcium is good ,,floculant,,because calcium bonds the fosfates bestter than GFO in salt water or fresh water but with a ph above 7 ,resulting calcium fosfate(the substance from what human bones are made of).

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

If you know a litle chemistry than you know that CaCO3 is not soluble in water.Its just snake oil.All our sand and live rock or dead corals skeletons are made of calcium carbonate but that doesnt disolve in water.To disolve the CACO3 you need to add CO2 thats why you see people using calcium reactors where they melt lime stone or dead coral skeleton by using CO2.Kalkwasser on the otther hand is much better than CACO3 because that makes calcium available.Calcium is good ,,floculant,,because calcium bonds the fosfates bestter than GFO in salt water or fresh water but with a ph above 7 ,resulting calcium fosfate(the substance from what human bones are made of).

I'm not sure I understand the conclusion of your post between the opening and the ending.

I don't think anyone has proposed that this is a method to supplement Ca. Only that it may be useful as a flocculant to help skimming or other types of mechanical filtration.

[2smokes]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I'm not sure I understand the conclusion of your post between the opening and the ending.

I don't think anyone has proposed that this is a method to supplement Ca. Only that it may be useful as a flocculant to help skimming or other types of mechanical filtration.

To get a conclusion you have to read the quote to wich i was giving the reply.That user sayd CACO3 is better than kalk(CAOH) wich is totally wrong.Caco3 is just tossed limestone and it isnt soluble in water just like sand is-it will deposit on the bottom.It wont ,,floculate,, nothing.The real stuff that makes water clear as in thoose pictures is kalk because the calcium in calk is available in the water solution and that calcium bonds to the phosphates that make the floating detritus.A lot of people use kalkwasser mainly to keep theyr water clear and not necesarely for adding calcium or keep the alk stable(like the soft corals aquarium that use kalkwater in the top off).I assumed that the KZ product was kalk (never measured to see the ph of the coral snow)but if its just tossed up limestone(caco3) its even worse than if it was kalk .This is just my opinion on the matter but nobody keeps you from pouring tossed limmestone into the aquarium.It wouldnt hurt nothing for sure.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

To get a conclusion you have to read the quote to wich i was giving the reply.That user sayd CACO3 is better than kalk(CAOH) wich is totally wrong.Caco3 is just tossed limestone and it isnt soluble in water just like sand is-it will deposit on the bottom.It wont ,,floculate,, nothing.The real stuff that makes water clear as in thoose pictures is kalk because the calcium in calk is available in the water solution and that calcium bonds to the phosphates that make the floating detritus.A lot of people use kalkwasser mainly to keep theyr water clear and not necesarely for adding calcium or keep the alk stable(like the soft corals aquarium that use kalkwater in the top off).I assumed that the KZ product was kalk (never measured to see the ph of the coral snow)but if its just tossed up limestone(caco3) its even worse than if it was kalk .This is just my opinion on the matter but nobody keeps you from pouring tossed limmestone into the aquarium.It wouldnt hurt nothing for sure.

Read the post you quoted would be a good idea. No mention of better or worse was made and stated what you are arguing that CaCO3 is not limewater. Maybe you quoted the wrong post?

There's some evidence that dosing lime may bind phosphates but not a significant amount. At least it has not been shown in practice afaik.

Under: "What Else Does Limewater Do In An Aquarium? Reduce Phosphate"
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php#15


There are some reasons to believe CaCO3 could help remove some metals and that PO4 could bind to it as well then get filtered out.

Under: "export of metals"
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

If you know a litle chemistry than you know that CaCO3 is not soluble in water.Its just snake oil.All our sand and live rock or dead corals skeletons are made of calcium carbonate but that doesnt disolve in water.To disolve the CACO3 you need to add CO2 thats why you see people using calcium reactors where they melt lime stone or dead coral skeleton by using CO2.Kalkwasser on the otther hand is much better than CACO3 because that makes calcium available.Calcium is good ,,floculant,,because calcium bonds the fosfates bestter than GFO in salt water or fresh water but with a ph above 7 ,resulting calcium fosfate(the substance from what human bones are made of).

Originally Posted by 2smokes

To get a conclusion you have to read the quote to wich i was giving the reply.That user sayd CACO3 is better than kalk(CAOH) wich is totally wrong.Caco3 is just tossed limestone and it isnt soluble in water just like sand is-it will deposit on the bottom.It wont ,,floculate,, nothing.The real stuff that makes water clear as in thoose pictures is kalk because the calcium in calk is available in the water solution and that calcium bonds to the phosphates that make the floating detritus.A lot of people use kalkwasser mainly to keep theyr water clear and not necesarely for adding calcium or keep the alk stable(like the soft corals aquarium that use kalkwater in the top off).I assumed that the KZ product was kalk (never measured to see the ph of the coral snow)but if its just tossed up limestone(caco3) its even worse than if it was kalk .This is just my opinion on the matter but nobody keeps you from pouring tossed limmestone into the aquarium.It wouldnt hurt nothing for sure.

did.... did you even read the thread, or my posts? You're thinking that calcium carbonate is being added in an attempt to raise cal and alk levels, which is not the case.

Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) will not dissolve in a reef aquarium under normal circumstances. What it does, however, is act as a flocculent, binding small particulates along with some yellow dissolved organic matter (aka gelbstoff) to its surface, which will then be much more easily removed by the protein skimmer in the system (or really fine mechanical filtration). Some phosphate could also bind, but mostly at the higher end of a reef aquarium pH scale, and with my tank running a pH of 7.7-7.8, I have never personally measured any change in that regard. A far better binder for phosphate is lanthanum chloride.

Kalkwasser (CaOH) when added to a reef aquarium will react with CO2 in the water and will separate into calcium and carbonate/bicarbonate. This will raise calcium and alkalinity levels, raise pH significantly if not dosed in small quantities, and can precipitate some phosphate which will bind with some organics for easier removal via skimming. Kalk generally should have little on water discoloration or turbidity as only minor amounts of organics will be bound.

The binding effect of CaCO3 can be significant - see the photos in post 36 by Reefer PT. I can confirm those results. My well water after going through a $3000 purification system isn't even as clear as the 'after' results.

[Reefer PT]

I love when you talk about a kz product like coral snow, people make "snake oil" statements. I have not done any scientific studies, but the results seem pretty outstanding to me. As for it precipitating out. I run a bare bottom tank and have noticed no more "sand" on the bottom then what I saw before dosing.


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[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

I love when you talk about a kz product like coral snow, people make "snake oil" statements. I have not done any scientific studies, but the results seem pretty outstanding to me. As for it precipitating out. I run a bare bottom tank and have noticed no more "sand" on the bottom then what I saw before dosing.


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moar floooooowwww

[Reefer PT]

Never thought about that. I am running a lot of flow in my tank. So maybe it would precipitate out if I didn't have as much flow.


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[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

Never thought about that. I am running a lot of flow in my tank. So maybe it would precipitate out if I didn't have as much flow.


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I used my Gyre 150 in my BB 40 breeder and even it wasn't enough to keep stuff from settling under the rocks until I lifted them up off the starboard using some very tiny rocks, so they had roughly an inch or so under them, then it was much better

[Reefer PT]

I have 2 mp40's on either end of the tank plus 2 rw20's on the back wall aimed at the bottoms of my "rock islands" I could create a hurricane if I wanted


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[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

I have 2 mp40's on either end of the tank plus 2 rw20's on the back wall aimed at the bottoms of my "rock islands" I could create a hurricane if I wanted


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LOL, I think that should do the trick! Maybe when dosing turn the RW20 up just a fuzz to keep stuff moving away from the bottom. Also turn the MP40 to NTM

[jason2459]

I've got some flow going on too.

Two xf150/250's at 100% working together to churn plus around 1400gph from my return pump.

[2smokes]

First of all ,all the korallen zucht products have secret retepy so nobody knows for sure if Coral snow is CaOH or CaCO3.The guy that sayd it could be clay might also be right.To find out what Coral snow is made of you should test that with a mass spectometer(not toy spectrocolorimeter we use in the hobby).Kalk, CaOH is best known phosphate binder in saltwater beating even the GFO(floculant if you want to call it that way because thoose floating matter are mostly made of phosphate and calcium).We all know that GFO binds phosphate verry well but the GFO is made for treating fresh water with a lower ph than 7 while the kalk works better than GFO if the if the ph is above.Dicalcium phosphate is made like this using kalk H3PO4 + Ca(OH)2 → CaHPO4 creating a sediment stone thats called monetite wich is made by thoose floating detritus that is your problem in the aquarium.With kalk you can do a lot of things in a reef aquarium like killing aiptasia or any nuisance coral,maintaining propper level of Ca and alk,bonding phosphates...

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

First of all ,all the korallen zucht products have secret retepy so nobody knows for sure if Coral snow is CaOH or CaCO3.The guy that sayd it could be clay might also be right.To find out what Coral snow is made of you should test that with a mass spectometer(not toy spectrocolorimeter we use in the hobby).Kalk, CaOH is best known phosphate binder in saltwater beating even the GFO(floculant if you want to call it that way because thoose floating matter are mostly made of phosphate and calcium).We all know that GFO binds phosphate verry well but the GFO is made for treating fresh water with a lower ph than 7 while the kalk works better than GFO if the if the ph is above.Dicalcium phosphate is made like this using kalk H3PO4 + Ca(OH)2 → CaHPO4 creating a sediment stone thats called monetite wich is made by thoose floating detritus that is your problem in the aquarium.With kalk you can do a lot of things in a reef aquarium like killing aiptasia or any nuisance coral,maintaining propper level of Ca and alk,bonding phosphates...

Uh, actually, literally every person that has ever used thid particular KZ product would know immediately if they were dosing CaCO3 or CaOH, as if it were CaOH and they dosed the recommended amount, there would be an immediate change in pH (which there isn't), there would be a noticeable increase in the tank's calcium and alkalinity (which there isn't), and there wouldn't really be any clouding effect (which there is).

And no, kalkwasser is not the best phosphate removal tool that reefers have, lanthanum chloride beats it out handily without any significant caveats like there would be if you dosed enough to do the same job.

[bertoni]

I doubt that the KZ product contains Kalk. Kalk would raise the pH, and might cause calcium carbonate precipitation. Precipitating phosphate won't make the water clearer, nor is there much evidence that Kalk will cause such precipitation. I agree that calcium carbonate can act as a flocculant, although we don't know what's in the KZ product. Calcium carbonate will fizz when vinegar is added, and most clays likely won't, which might help as a first-order check.

Interestingly, the calcium carbonate product might adsorb phosphate along with causing some calcium carbonate precipitation. I think people have noticed this effect, anyway, although I have forgotten any numbers.

[jason2459]

In fact, very first post shows kz coral snow dissolves in acetic acid as would CaCO3.

Originally Posted by biom

I was wondering what KZ Coral Snow is made of. It seems that it is pure natural chalk and water. I've made few simple tests and I'm pretty sure that it is chalk - it vigorously dissolves in acetic acid without residue, and after dehydration it looks exactly like chalk. I have natural chalk in hand and it is hard to find difference when compare with dehydrated Coral Snow. You can judge by yourself - on the picture attached - left is natural chalk and right is dehydrated Coral Snow, the stone is chalk.
Since chalk is almost pure calcite - Calcium carbonate with traces of Magnesium carbonate, silicates, ferric oxides,inorganic phosphates etc, I decide to give a try to pure calcium carbonate (analytical grade) instead Coral Snow - and it works like charm - it has the same effect, and I'm sure that there is no unwanted impurities like phosphates, silicates and ferric salts. The pure calcium carbonate is bright white, while chalk and Coral Snow have yellowish color, because of other salts.
I really like Coral snow because is helps a lot especially when new corals are added into the tank - the chalk reduces the mucus secretion from one side and coagulate organic compounds make them easily removed by skimmer or consumed by bacteria.
There are about 4 grams chalk in 10 ml of CoralSnow.

And a few posts after that giving a bit more info

Originally Posted by biom

Could you please provide some arguments? I don't think it is a clay because the clay is hydrous aluminium phyllosilicate with various alkaline metals. Both aluminium oxides and silicates do not react with acetic acid, but CoralSnow dissolves completely with no residue even in 5% acetic acid, exactly like calcium carbonate.

[jason2459]

And further information. Clacium hydroxide has a pH of around 12.

Originally Posted by biom

Did't compare it with Milk of Magnesia, but since Milk of Magnesia is Magnesium hydroxide with pH 10.35 I don't think this is the case, because I've measured the pH of CoraLSnow and it was 9 something (I have to check).

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

...not toy spectrocolorimeter we use in the hobby)....

No spectometers were used.


FYI, biom who started this thread works at a laboratory.

[bertoni]

I agree that the KZ product might be calcium carbonate, and probably is, but we'd need to use some lab equipment to be sure.

[2smokes]

To be sure what it contains ,needs checked with a mass spectrometer.Looks like this and i doubt its used in the hobby by even most fanatic chemist reefer. In the hobby we rely more on assumptions and on tools that look like this toy.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I agree that the KZ product might be calcium carbonate, and probably is, but we'd need to use some lab equipment to be sure.

But it's certainly not Ca(OH)2 which is what I guess I was highlighting as it was questioned that it could be.

[Reefer PT]

2smokes, what exactly is your point? Don't use kz products because we don't know exactly what's in them? If that's it, well we know what's in 97% pure calcium carbonate. And people here have been arguing that it has good effect on water clarity. No one claims it's a phosphate binder, no one claims it's a food. No one claims it's a buffer, alkalinity or calcium additive.


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[rtparty]

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

2smokes, what exactly is your point? Don't use kz products because we don't know exactly what's in them? If that's it, well we know what's in 97% pure calcium carbonate. And people here have been arguing that it has good effect on water clarity. No one claims it's a phosphate binder, no one claims it's a food. No one claims it's a buffer, alkalinity or calcium additive.


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Sadly, he has no point. Most posts are him just trying to argue for the sake of arguing. Even when people back up their posts, he says they're wrong