ich a big issue in larger tanks? - Page 2

shaginwagon13 · 11/07/2017, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

To answer the OP question, ich is as big a problem in a 1000g tank as it is in a 55g tank. Probably more so since there are more fish, time and money involved with large systems. Really sucks when you see all your hard work and money get sick, whether thats a 50g tank or one thats several hundred gallons. Inverts won't "host" ich but the free swiming stage can be in the water in the bag they arrive in or snail shells (really any hard surface.)Same with corals, except the cysts are on rock or frag plugs, not the corals themselves.

I think someone needs to come up with an actual cure that's reef safe lol

QT fish - I can do. But is it really even realistic to QT inverts, snails, ect? I don't think so but that's by .02 cents

ca1ore · 11/07/2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subsea

Many mature reef tanks have dormant ich that may never show themselves until a strees event happens or a fish with a weakened immune system is introduced.

I completely agree. What is less clear to me is how. Can ich actually go 'dormant'? If so , the traditional fallow tank advice is useless. Or, does ich actually continue to reproduce in the tank, but at such a low level that the symptoms are not observed? I tend to think it must be the latter.

Subsea · 11/07/2017, 04:09 PM

I say fallow tank advice is useless.

I remember one line in Jurassic Park, when the scientist realize that the clones they had manipulated were now reproducing, “Nature finds a way”. I say the same applies to this fallow tank advice.

I personally think it is a dormant cocoon in substrate. A classic illustration of this has been documented with bacteria. Red Sea salt has natural sea salt as part of its make-up. When Ken Felderman was testing bacteria responses to carbon dosing in reef tanks, he found some unusual bacteria populations with the tank in question having Red Sea salt. When I posted this, I was blasted by unbelievers because a PHD chemist on this website said it could not happen. In the last two years, salt crystals identified as > 200 million years shocked the scientific community with a bacteria that they could not identify.

Subsea · 11/07/2017, 04:18 PM

Simon,

I am enjoying this conversation with you. I think the subject matter merits a wider audience. Not because I want more input than yours, but because too many reefers are misinformed by faulty information from the scientific community. Be sure they will protect their own and will attack this position.

Do you think that it should be in Advanced Topics, Disease Treatment, Reef Discussion or all three. I am not the OP, but I think moderators should consider the merit of this conversation to a larger audience.

Dmorty217 · 11/08/2017, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

I think someone needs to come up with an actual cure that's reef safe lol

QT fish - I can do. But is it really even realistic to QT inverts, snails, ect? I don't think so but that's by .02 cents

Some do but that presents a whole new set of problems. Sterile tanks and inverts like snails typically don't go together. Shrimp could have a good rinse in clean saltwater before going into a tank and that should be enough to take care of any ich that may have been in the bag. With snails I scrub the shells with something abrasive and rinse in my sink for a few seconds with freshwater and throw them in the tank. Hasn't failed me yet, doesn't mean it won't though

Dmorty217 · 11/08/2017, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subsea

Simon,

I am enjoying this conversation with you. I think the subject matter merits a wider audience. Not because I want more input than yours, but because too many reefers are misinformed by faulty information from the scientific community. Be sure they will protect their own and will attack this position.

Do you think that it should be in Advanced Topics, Disease Treatment, Reef Discussion or all three. I am not the OP, but I think moderators should consider the merit of this conversation to a larger audience.

I agree but you will spend most of your time fighting with people because they are set in their ways and refuse to learn or think outside the box. On here, you are either right or wrong there doesn't seem to be much grey area. There is no grey area on here when you have a PHD and 80K posts... you are right no matter what

ozorowsky · 11/08/2017, 06:21 AM

Are you guys suggesting i not stress about ich and do ich management?

The snail and coral topic is exactly what i was thinking. How do i ensure corals and snails don't bring ich to tank?

My bigger tank is cycling now. I'm thinning pulling my rock sand and corals and inverts out of my 55put in main tank for 76days.

Then put pvc in the 55 and treat all fish with cupramine for 10days. Then. Move them to big tank.

Going forward ill qt all fish in cupramine for 14days. I'll leave corals in separate quarantine for 76days but not sure howto handle lighting properly to keep the corals alive long enough to go to big tank.

As far as snails/ inverts I'm not sure how to quarantine as they need algae to eat, and can't put them in cupramine.

McPuff · 11/08/2017, 07:17 AM

I think you should always have an eye toward ich management even with QT and TTM procedures in place. Subsea, I'm not disagreeing with your points about immune system. All of that is very true and one would be reckless to not think along these lines. BUT, there are two things to consider: 1) fish in the ocean do not have to worry about exponential reproduction of parasites like they do in captivity. The health of the individual does matter but it only takes one fish with a weak(er) immune system to doom the entire tank. 2) I do think it is important to be proactive with the new additions. TTM means no chemicals and uses the life cycle of ich to your advantage. It is very easy and only takes 12 days. From there, you can do whatever chemical treatments you wish (though freshwater dips are effective for some parasites as well). At the minimum, an observation period will be helpful, especially if you're putting the fish[es] into a large tank where they will be difficult to capture. For my fish, I do TTM and then put them into the refugium where I can monitor them for about a month. I'm changing it up slightly to include some medicated foods (metroplex) to ensure there are no gut parasites. Also important to look carefully for monotremes (clear!), hook worms, and isopods, etc. Those are more easily observed and remedied.

There is already a lot of information on ich in the Fish Disease forum. And you are right that people will have a very staunch stance on ich and other parasites. So I'm not sure how much it will help to post in there given what has already been written in this thread. In my opinion, this is the best of both worlds in terms of advice and information. A little proactive, chemical-free treatment, followed by immune boosting diet will go a LONG way toward ensuring the fish you add are happy and healthy!

Subsea · 11/08/2017, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPuff

I think you should always have an eye toward ich management even with QT and TTM procedures in place. Subsea, I'm not disagreeing with your points about immune system. All of that is very true and one would be reckless to not think along these lines. BUT, there are two things to consider: 1) fish in the ocean do not have to worry about exponential reproduction of parasites like they do in captivity. The health of the individual does matter but it only takes one fish with a weak(er) immune system to doom the entire tank. 2) I do think it is important to be proactive with the new additions. TTM means no chemicals and uses the life cycle of ich to your advantage. It is very easy and only takes 12 days. From there, you can do whatever chemical treatments you wish (though freshwater dips are effective for some parasites as well). At the minimum, an observation period will be helpful, especially if you're putting the fish[es] into a large tank where they will be difficult to capture. For my fish, I do TTM and then put them into the refugium where I can monitor them for about a month. I'm changing it up slightly to include some medicated foods (metroplex) to ensure there are no gut parasites. Also important to look carefully for monotremes (clear!), hook worms, and isopods, etc. Those are more easily observed and remedied.

There is already a lot of information on ich in the Fish Disease forum. And you are right that people will have a very staunch stance on ich and other parasites. So I'm not sure how much it will help to post in there given what has already been written in this thread. In my opinion, this is the best of both worlds in terms of advice and information. A little proactive, chemical-free treatment, followed by immune boosting diet will go a LONG way toward ensuring the fish you add are happy and healthy!

Thank you. That is well stated and I agree 100%.

Mishri · 11/10/2017, 10:43 AM

Agree with dmorty here, larger tank equals larger problems. (more $$$ on creatures you might lose).

more water volume doesn't help, as ich falls off at night where the fish sleeps, and in a heavily stocked tank it will be easy for it to find a host.

Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich in them and the fish are able to fight it off. Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich that wiped out all of their fish that feed and do everything the other guys do.

I prefer to ensure all parasites are eradicated. 90 days fallow -for anything wet. macro algae, inverts, corals... all need to be in a fishless system for 90 days.

for fish my preferred method is chloroquine phosphate, treats most parasites(like ich and brook), and prazipro gets the other parasites. 30 days of treatment/observation then in the display tank they go. -can't use it on some wrasse, pipefish, or sea horses.. so tank transfer is better for ich on the wrasse.

Then you don't have to worry about ich someday getting out of hand... finding a weak fish, multiplying to the point they start overwhelming them.. etc... and yes, tangs tend to be the easiest target for ich to attach to.

mikluha · 11/10/2017, 05:07 PM

My 2 cents.

240 gal tank got ich not so long time ago. Bought a fish from place I knew I shouldn't buy. Quarantine wasn't long enough, I suspect. I panicked. Started to catch all my fishes, freshwater dips, etc. Too much of headache. Lost few fishes during treatment (I think the catching them, freshwater dips, etc was too much stress, which is killer when combined with ich). Finally used cupramin, which took care. Tank was fallow for 80 days.

Moved fish back. In 3-4 weeks noticed ich on chocolate tang. The fish was eating like a pig, so I decided to ignore it. For 3 weeks he had few white spots on/off. Same time I realized my nitrates were too high (messing with DIY coral food) - 70 ppm or so.

Bumped vodka addition, water changes, etc. Nitrates went down to 0 in few days. The tang was healthy again couple of days later.

No problem since that incident. Recently I added Achilles tang, which is ich magnet. Of course, he got white spots within week or so. But they're pretty much all gone by now.

So, I proved for MYSELF that:

1) Ich may exist in fish tank. Dormant? Maybe. How long can it be dormant? Who knows. 80/90 days maybe good for one strain, but maybe not enough others (ich should have different genetic variations, correct?)

2) Optimal fish conditions is a must for disease-free tank. Who knows what is in my tank besides ich. I use variety of foods and always add diy selcon/garlic/vitamins/etc. I'd like to use blackworms like PaulB but nobody around here carries them.

3) In may case high nitrates triggered infection.

And, of course, quarantine all new fishes.

11/07/2017, 04:09 PM	#28
Subsea Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,882	I say fallow tank advice is useless. I remember one line in Jurassic Park, when the scientist realize that the clones they had manipulated were now reproducing, “Nature finds a way”. I say the same applies to this fallow tank advice. I personally think it is a dormant cocoon in substrate. A classic illustration of this has been documented with bacteria. Red Sea salt has natural sea salt as part of its make-up. When Ken Felderman was testing bacteria responses to carbon dosing in reef tanks, he found some unusual bacteria populations with the tank in question having Red Sea salt. When I posted this, I was blasted by unbelievers because a PHD chemist on this website said it could not happen. In the last two years, salt crystals identified as > 200 million years shocked the scientific community with a bacteria that they could not identify. __________________ Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

11/07/2017, 04:18 PM	#29
Subsea Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,882	Simon, I am enjoying this conversation with you. I think the subject matter merits a wider audience. Not because I want more input than yours, but because too many reefers are misinformed by faulty information from the scientific community. Be sure they will protect their own and will attack this position. Do you think that it should be in Advanced Topics, Disease Treatment, Reef Discussion or all three. I am not the OP, but I think moderators should consider the merit of this conversation to a larger audience. __________________ Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout

11/10/2017, 10:43 AM	#35
Mishri Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Great Falls, MT Posts: 1,404	Agree with dmorty here, larger tank equals larger problems. (more $$$ on creatures you might lose). more water volume doesn't help, as ich falls off at night where the fish sleeps, and in a heavily stocked tank it will be easy for it to find a host. Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich in them and the fish are able to fight it off. Many members here have well stocked tanks with ich that wiped out all of their fish that feed and do everything the other guys do. I prefer to ensure all parasites are eradicated. 90 days fallow -for anything wet. macro algae, inverts, corals... all need to be in a fishless system for 90 days. for fish my preferred method is chloroquine phosphate, treats most parasites(like ich and brook), and prazipro gets the other parasites. 30 days of treatment/observation then in the display tank they go. -can't use it on some wrasse, pipefish, or sea horses.. so tank transfer is better for ich on the wrasse. Then you don't have to worry about ich someday getting out of hand... finding a weak fish, multiplying to the point they start overwhelming them.. etc... and yes, tangs tend to be the easiest target for ich to attach to. __________________ 300 gallon 8ft long, 2x xf250 gyre, reef octopus 250-int - work in progress Aquarist since 1986

11/08/2017, 06:21 AM	#32
ozorowsky Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 311	Are you guys suggesting i not stress about ich and do ich management? The snail and coral topic is exactly what i was thinking. How do i ensure corals and snails don't bring ich to tank? My bigger tank is cycling now. I'm thinning pulling my rock sand and corals and inverts out of my 55put in main tank for 76days. Then put pvc in the 55 and treat all fish with cupramine for 10days. Then. Move them to big tank. Going forward ill qt all fish in cupramine for 14days. I'll leave corals in separate quarantine for 76days but not sure howto handle lighting properly to keep the corals alive long enough to go to big tank. As far as snails/ inverts I'm not sure how to quarantine as they need algae to eat, and can't put them in cupramine.

11/08/2017, 07:17 AM	#33
McPuff Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,735	I think you should always have an eye toward ich management even with QT and TTM procedures in place. Subsea, I'm not disagreeing with your points about immune system. All of that is very true and one would be reckless to not think along these lines. BUT, there are two things to consider: 1) fish in the ocean do not have to worry about exponential reproduction of parasites like they do in captivity. The health of the individual does matter but it only takes one fish with a weak(er) immune system to doom the entire tank. 2) I do think it is important to be proactive with the new additions. TTM means no chemicals and uses the life cycle of ich to your advantage. It is very easy and only takes 12 days. From there, you can do whatever chemical treatments you wish (though freshwater dips are effective for some parasites as well). At the minimum, an observation period will be helpful, especially if you're putting the fish[es] into a large tank where they will be difficult to capture. For my fish, I do TTM and then put them into the refugium where I can monitor them for about a month. I'm changing it up slightly to include some medicated foods (metroplex) to ensure there are no gut parasites. Also important to look carefully for monotremes (clear!), hook worms, and isopods, etc. Those are more easily observed and remedied. There is already a lot of information on ich in the Fish Disease forum. And you are right that people will have a very staunch stance on ich and other parasites. So I'm not sure how much it will help to post in there given what has already been written in this thread. In my opinion, this is the best of both worlds in terms of advice and information. A little proactive, chemical-free treatment, followed by immune boosting diet will go a LONG way toward ensuring the fish you add are happy and healthy!

11/10/2017, 05:07 PM	#36
mikluha Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Phoeniz, AZ Posts: 80	My 2 cents. 240 gal tank got ich not so long time ago. Bought a fish from place I knew I shouldn't buy. Quarantine wasn't long enough, I suspect. I panicked. Started to catch all my fishes, freshwater dips, etc. Too much of headache. Lost few fishes during treatment (I think the catching them, freshwater dips, etc was too much stress, which is killer when combined with ich). Finally used cupramin, which took care. Tank was fallow for 80 days. Moved fish back. In 3-4 weeks noticed ich on chocolate tang. The fish was eating like a pig, so I decided to ignore it. For 3 weeks he had few white spots on/off. Same time I realized my nitrates were too high (messing with DIY coral food) - 70 ppm or so. Bumped vodka addition, water changes, etc. Nitrates went down to 0 in few days. The tang was healthy again couple of days later. No problem since that incident. Recently I added Achilles tang, which is ich magnet. Of course, he got white spots within week or so. But they're pretty much all gone by now. So, I proved for MYSELF that: 1) Ich may exist in fish tank. Dormant? Maybe. How long can it be dormant? Who knows. 80/90 days maybe good for one strain, but maybe not enough others (ich should have different genetic variations, correct?) 2) Optimal fish conditions is a must for disease-free tank. Who knows what is in my tank besides ich. I use variety of foods and always add diy selcon/garlic/vitamins/etc. I'd like to use blackworms like PaulB but nobody around here carries them. 3) In may case high nitrates triggered infection. And, of course, quarantine all new fishes.