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Old 04/12/2007, 02:07 AM   #76
Slakker
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So getting my mind off of the kids and their troubles isn't working. I've been thinking.

I appear to be battling a bit of an unknown enemy here...

From reading, the most common parasites for marine fish are C. Irritans, Amyloo, and Brook.

White spots are completely absent, so C. Irritans would appear to be out, behavior does not suggest Amyloo, and Brook would certainly have them dead by now.

Realistically, we don't even know if Hypo will help the poor little guys at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely going to follow through with Hypo, but what if it doesn't help? Will there be time to try anything else, or is it basically their last hope?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/12/2007, 06:41 AM   #77
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C. irritans(ick) is far from out, in fact seeing white spots then not is quite an indicator in my experience.

One change, if getting down to the hypo target is not going to happen very soon, they I would go with coppersafe/cuprimine/etc., today.

In my opinion, not eating enough is going to be the nail in the coffin and removing the irritants is critical.


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Old 04/12/2007, 12:02 PM   #78
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My refracto has shipped out, and the drs. foster and smith are only 5 or 6 hours away. I wouldn't be surprised to see it arrive tomorrow. Later on today wouldn't even necessarily be out of the question, but I'm not counting on it.

A local reefer has offered to let me borrow his refractometer until mine arrives. My SG is (presumably) at 1.014 currently, so I can probably drag it down to Hypo yet today without too much stress to the fish, right?

Edit: With the black paper on the tank I see them up and moving around a bit more than usual, and the tipping over has gotten a bit less severe, but they're still in trouble for sure.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/12/2007, 12:24 PM   #79
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And as far as getting them to eat, I am going to pick up an eyedropper today and see if I can't get them to chow down by placing the food directly in front of them. They definitely chase Cyclopeeze around, but with the current I don't know if they can actually get much.

They definitely always perk up and start swimming around like crazy trying to get some, but I'm just not sure how effective it is.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/12/2007, 12:32 PM   #80
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Try shutting off the filter, then put in some food.

Just don't forget to turn it back on


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Old 04/12/2007, 12:48 PM   #81
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I did give that a shot, but they didn't really seem to get up and go after it when the filter was off. I could just be really impatient and didn't wait long enough for them to notice it...

Next feeding I'll turn the filter off and actually wait for some of the food to get down near them.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/12/2007, 01:07 PM   #82
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Slakker, Check you PM.


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Old 04/12/2007, 01:07 PM   #83
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man this is raw...i am glad my clowns and first experience hasn't been like this...tyler i feel for you homie hopefully everything works out for you, i thought i almost lost mine but things are still good...hopefully they'll pull through for you


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Old 04/12/2007, 01:23 PM   #84
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Thanks, all, for the support.

However, I think the game has just changed a bit. I've just seem some white, stringy feces on the female. I can't get any pictures of it with her laying on the bottom, but it's definitely there.

Maracyn 2?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/12/2007, 01:32 PM   #85
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internal parasites...


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Old 04/12/2007, 01:40 PM   #86
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My thoughts too...I fully intend to stay the course with the hypo, but will that affect anything internal or do I have to start some other treatment?

Also, my pH is way low, i'm talkin 7.7ish. I'm adding the baking soda/water mix to bring it back up. How long after I add ~1 ounce should I wait to add more?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/12/2007, 01:42 PM   #87
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This link sounds exactly like what you're experiencing.. .unfortunately they don't mention the cure!

here

Good luck...


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Old 04/12/2007, 01:56 PM   #88
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Maracyn 2 is an antibiotic, it will do nothing for implied internal parasites. Not necessarily a bad thing, but lord knows what near term chemical is going to be required.

Based on the information available regarding how much they are eating, diagnosing white stringy feces is not a given. I have seen treated and isolated pairs, produce white feces after 4-5 days without feeding, only to return to normal within 24 hours of normal feeding schedules.

At this point, the target fish need to eat or all else is moot.

Good catch on the pH, if it is down, I would perform 33% waterchange with 8.2ish pH water with a slightly less SG before I added any sodium bicarb/pH up, etc.


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Old 04/12/2007, 02:12 PM   #89
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Alright, sounds like a plan.

It was suggested that I try hatching brine shrimp to get them to eat...good idea, bad idea?

I'll be picking up a refractometer from a local reefer after 6:30 this evening, my time (in about 4 and a half hours) and will then get SG down to 1.009. and try to get everything stable.

I think I might rinse out the filter pad (not the bio-floss crap, but the pad on the carbon cartridge) in an attempt to rid it of some of the cyclopeeze that are without a doubt gummed up in there. It probably isn't helping my water quality to have all that crap on there, and even after two 1gal water changes my ammonia appeared to be barely detectable.
Before I do that, will rinsing this pad out have a negative affect on any denitrifying bacteria I may have built up at this point?

From reading the linked WWM article, I find it possible that I might have something wrong with my water that could be causing a toxicity reaction in the fish, but can't think of anything that would be doing it. Although, I guess if my ammonia is still up a bit, that is a possible culprit.

I don't think that all my "Zero" ammonia readings were correct when I was testing the main tank earlier on. I believe that I was improperly testing for ammonia, not waiting long enough for the results of the chem test. (The instructions say 20 minutes...I said 5. Bad move.)


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/12/2007, 02:57 PM   #90
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If you have another container, supplies, time, etc., then hatching brine, won't hurt; but your fish are in hypo and you definitely don't want to hatch brine in the Hospital tank for water quality issues. If you want to try a wiggling food to entice, you could pick up a very small amount of live black worms or live brine from an LFS. Of course adding anything else is also a potential to add something undesirable to the current equation. Bottom line, they need to eat and sooner is better then later, err on the side of them eating.

Rinse the pad, the hospital does not have a functional bio filter anyway. Water changes are going to be required as brute force "filtration".

Check your waterchange water for pH, ammonia, etc., as well. Always good to know the starting point. With all the changes of late, what is the current fresh water source?

IMHO: snails, shrimp, etc., would be as likely to show toxicity as the clowns if not more so.

There are a million things that could be going on but this is what we know for certain:

1. visible spots have been seen
2. elevated gill activity
3. sedentary behavior
4. lack of appetite

In my humble opinion, treat for ick until that is eliminated. Assuming the water itself is "safe"; stopping the ick cycle and getting them eating are the focal points.


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Old 04/12/2007, 08:06 PM   #91
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Yeah, my Peppermint shrimp is still alive and eating and everything, and I barely acclimated him...so I think you're right about toxicity.

Freshwater comes from the grocery store's RO machine. Probably not the cleanest RO ever, but certainly cleaner than the tap water here at the university, which I won't even heat Ramen Noodles in without running through a Brita. Why I thought it would be okay for my fish, I don't know...lol

I highly value your opinion, Scott, and I really appreciate your help to this point and your continuing interest in helping me out. I have no doubt that they would be dead by now if it wasn't for you.

I'm heading over to pick up the refractometer right now (stupid job and stuff getting in the way) and will continue their descent to 1.009 immediately upon returning. They are at ~1.012 right now, so I don't have far to go. I think I can get them to 1.009 by midnight.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/12/2007, 08:37 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slakker
I highly value your opinion
There goes the neighborhood



Quote:
Originally posted by Slakker
I'm heading over to pick up the refractometer right now (stupid job and stuff getting in the way) and will continue their descent to 1.009 immediately upon returning. They are at ~1.012 right now, so I don't have far to go. I think I can get them to 1.009 by midnight.
Take them down to 1.010 tonight and dial in the last little bit tomorrow morning while making up a supply of 1.009 water change reserves :>) You want to be around to monitor for fluctuations and really dial in the maintenance process for the next few weeks.

Good luck tonight


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Old 04/12/2007, 10:39 PM   #93
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Thanks again for the advice! Why did I never think before to test the pH of my change water? I'm dumb...lol

I read an article in RK magazine yesterday suggesting the calibration of refractometers, and since I'm doing Hypo I checked the accuracy with RO water and it was spot on 1.000. I'm mixing up some water at 1.010 to change out about a third of the water (still from the pH issue, it's been an unhelpfully busy day.) and after I get that done I'll be dripping in some RO to bring it down to 1.010 overall.

The good news is, I don't know whether just having the refractometer is giving me hope, but they seem to be acting a little differently. The female especially is up and swimming around, checking out one of the PVC pipes and not resting on the bottom, and the male seems to be having an easier time holding himself up. But I could be crazy.

I know people are probably getting pretty sick of seeing this post bumped up to the top...so just to spite those people, i'll post my progress as the evening goes on.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/13/2007, 12:22 AM   #94
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Well...turns out my WC water at an SG of 1.010 has a pH of ~7.7. Good thing I decided to test it. I've added the sodium bicarb solution to this mixing batch of water and gotten it up to just a little bit over 8.0. I'm about to carry out the suggested water change as soon as temperature is even.

I figure they can deal with a little less sleep if it gets them healthier water conditions.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/13/2007, 02:22 AM   #95
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Alright. WC is done. Took much longer than I would have liked, but whatever.

pH was still pretty low after the ~30% change with slightly higher than 8.0 water...maybe a little bit over the 7.7 I had tested earlier today. Ammonia isn't quite registering 0 on my test kit, but it's not registering any clear reading either. I might pick up an ammonia alert badge tomorrow.

I think that maybe more WCs at 1.009 at 8.2ish pH are probably in order to fix the pH. SG is a little higher than desired, as the Hydrometer was about .001 off. I'm currently sitting at 1.011. Those last .002 tomorrow shouldn't be hard at all.

It's bedtime...for the clowns AND me...lol


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/13/2007, 11:27 AM   #96
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After all the effort, hope the morning greeted you with 2 ready to eat clowns


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Old 04/13/2007, 01:05 PM   #97
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Well...morning definitely brought some good signs

Both clowns up and off the bottom far more than I've seen in days. I can now absolutely confirm that the male IS eating. I've seen him grab a bunch of cyclopeeze. The female is definitely interested in it, but I haven't seen her really eat much. I think I will try the eyedropper, as they both charged the fork immediately when I dipped it in. I think they'd be real happy with a meal delivered straight to them.

This could be me being crazy again, but their colors look richer than they have in the past couple of days, and they certainly are spending a lot less time on the bottom. Breathing rates seem to have gone back to normal as well.

Here's a real short video that is pretty representative of their overall behavior so far today. (it's kinda dark, but you can definitely see them up and at 'em )



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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

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Old 04/13/2007, 01:15 PM   #98
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Yippie!!!!


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Old 04/13/2007, 01:19 PM   #99
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They sure look more clownish in the video

Keep up the good work!


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Old 04/13/2007, 01:33 PM   #100
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They're still spending a little bit of time in their corner, but I think it's definitely a good sign that they're moving out of it at all and getting up into the water column.

I'm wondering if this maybe isn't the encysting stage of whatever parasite? I'm not really clear on if all or most of the parasites will detach from the host at the same time, but regardless it seems like today is the perfect time to hit Hypo.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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