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Unread 07/18/2018, 09:34 AM   #51
tmz
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Toubling news. The PO4 and NO3 nos .don't appear deficient. Backing off the carbon dosing might be the right course at this point. There may be another issue or two though.What's the alkalinity ? How well is the skimmer working? Any chance of new acro pests from new specimens?


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Unread 07/18/2018, 09:59 AM   #52
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Alkalinity has consistently been 7.1-7.4 the whole time. I haven’t started my calcium reactor yet as there hasn’t been a need yet. Magnesium is 1350 and calcium is 425.

I dip everything religiously and buy from some of the best hobbyists, that being said, I don’t see signs of pests. A part of me wonders if dosing just isn’t ideal for acropora.


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Unread 07/18/2018, 07:32 PM   #53
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I'd back off on the dosing. I am not sure what's happening, but coral loss is a bad sign.


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Unread 07/18/2018, 08:06 PM   #54
Nanook
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They probably starved with high light and insufficient nutrients. At least that’s my best educated guess. Dosing certainly reduces nitrate.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 07:34 AM   #55
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Nanook,
to me the alk is somewhat low.
I would start using the CA reactor.
When I attended a seminar on CA reactors the fellow stated,"they should really be called alkalinity reactors because that is the parameter you should set them up with, then dose CA to where you want it".


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Unread 07/19/2018, 08:37 AM   #56
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Acropora of a wide variety do well with carbon dosing IME. Each system is different though and I don't know what's causing the browning and stn in your situation. backing off the dose might help . FWIW, I dose kalk 24/7 to maintain alk around 9dkh , pH at 8.1 to 8.35,calcium over 420ppm and magnesium over 1400. NO3 holds at less than 1ppm with PO4 in the 0.2ppm to 0.4ppm range. I also feed my fish heavily and quarantine new coral specimens for several weeks. Lighting is radium mh plus vho actinic for the main system with several ancillary tanks under leds


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 07/19/2018, 08:52 AM   #57
Nanook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmz View Post
Acropora of a wide variety do well with carbon dosing IME. Each system is different though and I don't know what's causing the browning and stn in your situation. backing off the dose might help . FWIW, I dose kalk 24/7 to maintain alk around 9dkh , pH at 8.1 to 8.35,calcium over 420ppm and magnesium over 1400. NO3 holds at less than 1ppm with PO4 in the 0.2ppm to 0.4ppm range. I also feed my fish heavily and quarantine new coral specimens for several weeks. Lighting is radium mh 250 20K plus vho actinic for the main system with several ancillary tanks under leds
I’ve been very methodical on the dosing and have kept logs every few days to a week on tank parameters. The fact that these frags are browning then STN’ing is hard to take from a confidence perspective, and financial one!

The very high light plus close to water too stripped of nitrate is my only factors that could be causing the problems. But, even when nitrate was in the 4-8 range I was losing frags, which led me to think high light, but I’d run 400 watt halides for years without a need to acclimate.

At this point, my vinegar dosing pump is on standby and the vodka dose goes to me I’ll keep an eye on the corals and see how things look in a couple of weeks.


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Last edited by tmz; 07/19/2018 at 09:13 AM.
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Unread 07/19/2018, 09:00 AM   #58
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Good luck ; hope it improves. The browning is puzzling since that usually indicates high zooxanthelae density which seems contrary to a nitrogen deficiency. Typically paling is observed with a nitrogen deficiency. Really hard to know what reactions are occurring though.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 09:26 AM   #59
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It’s really more of a retraction of polyps, fading into light tan and eventual tissue sloughing.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 12:22 PM   #60
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Has the carbon dosing resulted in clearer water? Maybe better light penetration? Maybe just the change in nutrient levels rather than the level itself caused the issue. I've always had trouble figuring out problems with "sticks" because many times there in a big delay between cause & effect.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 01:52 PM   #61
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How has the calcium and alkalinity consumption trended during the dosing? I read your recent reply where you stated that you keep weekly logs. I wondered whether your system’s consumption of calcium or alkalinity, or both, decreased during dosing. I also wonder whether the rate of calcium and alkalinity consumption decreased as your carbon dose increased.

I am very interested in this information.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 02:09 PM   #62
Nanook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefgeezer View Post
Has the carbon dosing resulted in clearer water? Maybe better light penetration? Maybe just the change in nutrient levels rather than the level itself caused the issue. I've always had trouble figuring out problems with "sticks" because many times there in a big delay between cause & effect.
Water has always been clear as I run carbon passively every month or two if it looks a little yellow. But, the water does look a little clearer than before.

Quote:
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How has the calcium and alkalinity consumption trended during the dosing? I read your recent reply where you stated that you keep weekly logs. I wondered whether your system’s consumption of calcium or alkalinity, or both, decreased during dosing. I also wonder whether the rate of calcium and alkalinity consumption decreased as your carbon dose increased.

I am very interested in this information.
Without dosing either, my alkalinity and calcium have been completely unchanged. No consumption of either number.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 05:10 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook View Post
Without dosing either, my alkalinity and calcium have been completely unchanged. No consumption of either number.
Based on my dosing experiments, I would have guessed this might be the situation.

How much calcium and alkalinity were consumed weekly before dosing (Forgot to ask)?


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Unread 07/19/2018, 05:24 PM   #64
Nanook
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Originally Posted by Dan_P View Post
Based on my dosing experiments, I would have guessed this might be the situation.

How much calcium and alkalinity were consumed weekly before dosing (Forgot to ask)?
Nothing really before, but I had just added live rock on January 12th.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 06:59 PM   #65
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Nothing really before, but I had just added live rock on January 12th.
OK, I missed the point that this was a fairly new set up.

I was wondering whether the presence of coral and lack of alkalinity and calcium consumption might be indicative of a problem. But if your coral are small, maybe consumption levels are too small to measure.

The second thought was around dosing vinegar (acetic acid). Every dose neutralizes a small amount of carbonate alkalinity and replaces it with acetate. Then what? When the acetate is consumed, is the carbonate alkalinity replaced or are you slowly losing alkalinity? This might not be noticed because acetate can look like bicarbonate in alkalinity tests. If acetate is consumed slower than it is dosed, it could accumulate and become a bigger part of the alkalinity. A top end dose of 2 mL vinegar/gallon could replace 0.4 meq/L in one day. If your system is running at 3 meq/L, that might be an important consideration for coral health. And if there is accumulation of acetate at this dose, an even larger part of the alkalinity could be replaced by acetate. The worse case scenario occurs when there are no water changes or alkalinity dosing.

Anyway, no definite answer to your question but something for the forum to debate as to the possible impact on coral health when acetate replaces some of the carbonate alkalinity.


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Unread 07/19/2018, 09:36 PM   #66
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That's an interesting idea. I don't know that acetate would last all that long in our systems, but I don't know of a cost-effective way of checking that, either.


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Unread 07/20/2018, 12:01 PM   #67
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That's an interesting idea. I don't know that acetate would last all that long in our systems, but I don't know of a cost-effective way of checking that, either.
You echo my thoughts. The big assumption is that acetate is rapidly consumed. Ken Feldman provided TOC evidence for the rapid disappearance of ethanol (TOC went up then went down in an expected amount after ethanol dose, but that was only 1 ppm. Does the system respond this way with larger amounts?). He did not measure the response for a larger dose. Ditto for glucose. Unless bacteria are actively adjusted to consume these carbon sources, there could be a lag time before consumption starts. All this is thinking out loud. We need data.


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Unread 07/31/2018, 02:29 PM   #68
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The most conservative standard for amping up is the chart presented as as a sticky at the top of this forum( see vodka dosing chart under reef chemistry articles) Personally, I go faster. How the tank reacts is tank specific though given variables like surface area for bacteria to growth ; nutrient levels and a number of other things. Having said that, if pressed for a hip shot opinion , I'd say: increase by ten to fifteen percent per week till you reach a .4 vinegar equivalent per gallon per day level and hold that level for a few weeks before going higher; drop it back to .2 to .3 if cloudiness or excessive bacterial growth is observed in areas you don't want it.
I wanted to give an update and comment on how it is going:

I started prepared a vodka / vinager mix in wich 1ml of my mix equals to 4ml of vinager equivalent.

I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??

Thanks


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Unread 07/31/2018, 05:26 PM   #69
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Where are we with understanding the role of carbon dosing increasing bacteria that are harmful (STN) to coral? The Vibrio genus seems to be a popular culprit that can harm coral and its population potentially increased with carbon dosing.


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Unread 07/31/2018, 06:52 PM   #70
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Quote:
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The fact that these frags are browning then STN’ing
How long have these frags been in your reef?
Cheers! Mark


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Unread 08/03/2018, 08:24 AM   #71
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I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??



I'd take a look at the PO4. ATP (adenosine triphosapate)has a role in poviding energy and direction for the secretion of calcium carbonate for skeletal growth in the ECF(extracytoplastic cacifying fluid) which is present at the low end of the polyp.

Sorry for the late response; I post infrequently now due to some minor medical issues which sometimes make if difficult to sit at the computer for long


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 08/03/2018, 07:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmz View Post
I was dosing 55 ml of the mix (220ml of vineger equivalent) after 5 weeks but one week later I started seeing burned tips in acros, so I lowered to 50ml ( 200ml of vineger equivalent). After 2 weeks of maintaing that dose things do not really look better so I just back to 40 ml ( 160ml vineger equivalent).

at the begining I was 25- 30ppm of NO3, now the reading I am gettting is less than 25 but more than 10 with salifert NO3 kit so not exactly sure the actual value.

what could be the cause of the burned tips?
could it be a rapid decrease in NO3? alk has been 7.5. alk and other parameters had been very stable and the only change in tank was the carbon dosing so it is the only thing I could atribute the detrimental effects I started seing.

any ideas and or comments??



I'd take a look at the PO4. ATP (adenosine triphosapate)has a role in poviding energy and direction for the secretion of calcium carbonate for skeletal growth in the ECF(extracytoplastic cacifying fluid) which is present at the low end of the polyp.

Sorry for the late response; I post infrequently now due to some minor medical issues which sometimes make if difficult to sit at the computer for long
Tom,

my PO4 is 0.055 with hanna phosphorus.
any other ideas?


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