Bleach vs Acid - Page 11

zubat · 05/02/2010, 02:04 AM

hey guys, i broke every rule as i didn't discover this thread sooner. i did the muriatic acid thing. my rocks were heavily coated with white and purple. they sat for 2 years. first i place all the rocks in two 7 gal buckets. i wore shorts and sandals no gloves, mask, goggles. i poured straight muriatic acid (from Ace) and watched amazed as all my evidences fizzle. i sprayed water into the buckets to rinse. splashing it all over the Lexus behind the buckets. i emptied the buckets of the water. all the rocks rolled out. i continue to line all the rocks on the floor and continue to pour acid on them. neighbors walked by. i hear them says "stinks" repeatedly. i high pressure sprayed the white coatings off. some rock pieces fell off. i flipped the rocks over. poured acid. sprayed. then as a final step, i placed all the rocks back into the buckets. poured what's left of acid i got. topped off with water. carried the buckets inside splashing as i go. i smiled as i felt my work was complete. it has been sitting for about 1 1/2 days now. i'm afraid to look as i may have dissolved all my rocks. good news though is there are no fingerprints to be found.

zubat · 05/02/2010, 02:14 AM

oh yea, question. is the thick white coating on my rocks aiptasia? is that what you guys trying to get rid of with the bleach? hey Aadler, while scrolling down this page your avatar looked like a nice golden rotisserie chicken. ummm.

bertoni · 05/02/2010, 04:05 AM

Aiptasia are anemones, and have very distinct tentacles, etc, and don't create a skeleton. I don't know what the crust is, maybe just coralline. After a day and a half, the acid probably has been consumed, but I might check the pH to be sure.

kdirk · 05/05/2010, 10:05 PM

So if I'm just trying to kill hair algae do i really need to do the bleach? Can i pull the rock scrub it with a steel brush then do the acid?

HighlandReefer · 05/06/2010, 05:06 AM

Bleach works the best for killing living organisms (algae) and also braking down their dead cells. Acid works best for removing the phosphate and heavy metals on your rock and sand surfaces.

bertoni · 05/07/2010, 02:29 PM

The acid will kill the hair algae, although I agree that bleach is more commonly used as a strong disinfectant.

Klownfish · 05/07/2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Bleach works the best for killing living organisms (algae) and also braking down their dead cells. Acid works best for removing the phosphate and heavy metals on your rock and sand surfaces.

Any guess on how long to re-seed after the bleach-acid process?

bertoni · 05/07/2010, 08:37 PM

The usual guess is around 6-8 weeks to produce reasonably-functioning live rock, assuming there's enough food for bacterial growth, but the presence of live rock in the system might help reduce that, and it's only a guess.

kdirk · 05/08/2010, 10:32 PM

If im doing half my rock at a time after the first batch is done can i put it back in the tank or do i need to cure/reseed it outside of the tank?

bertoni · 05/08/2010, 10:41 PM

It can be put back into the tank after a thorough rinsing. It won't provide any filtration for a while, though.

kdirk · 05/09/2010, 08:52 AM

Thats should be ok i have a deep sand bed and a refuge. Someone said that i should keep the other live rock in there for about a month to reseed, but if the other rock is covered in hair algae will that not give the hair algae a chance to reseed as well?

bertoni · 05/09/2010, 01:51 PM

Leaving the untreated live rock in the tank will allow various animals to move to the treated rock, but the hair algae will be able to spread, too. I was successful at killing hair algae off, so I don't consider it much of a problem, but others haven't been so lucky. The hair algae might have a harder time growing once all the rock has been treated, though.

kdirk · 05/09/2010, 02:22 PM

Thats what I'm hoping, the water in my tank has been nitrate and phosphate free for 5 months. Its got to be leaching out of the rock and dsb, so I'm going to do this to the rock, and slowly remove my sand till i have about 1-3". Is there a common use for sodium thiosulfate so i can try to find it locally? Thanks

bertoni · 05/09/2010, 02:34 PM

It's used in black and white photographic processing, but I don't know of any more common uses.

kdirk · 05/09/2010, 06:15 PM

Thanks I'll just have to order it on-line.

kdirk · 05/10/2010, 04:59 PM

Do you think theres a need to do the acid twice for 20 to 30 minutes?

bertoni · 05/10/2010, 05:04 PM

No, I think one dip likely is fine. If the rock is still contaminated at that point, I'd pitch it.

kdirk · 05/11/2010, 06:14 AM

Ok Thanks

bertoni · 05/11/2010, 11:11 AM

You're welcome! Good luck!

bugshop · 06/12/2010, 05:17 PM

Hi All, I picked up a tank from a local reefer and it was covered with majano anemone.
I just did all the rock from my tank.
I put it in a 10:1 bleach mix for about 16 hrs.
then mixed a 10:1 acid in one tote
and baking soda and water in another tote
and a tote of fresh water.

After removing the rock from the bleach and rinsing well
I put it into the acid until it stopped foaming, about 20 min. or so.
then rinsed in fresh water and then rinsed in the backing soda water.

Then I mixed another batch of acid dip and repeated.

For the most part the rock is clean. It's darker than it was after I remover it from the bleach though...

Thanks for this thread and all the info in it.

GatorPharmD · 07/02/2010, 01:45 PM

Going through this thread has been an exponential learning experience for me as I prepare to set up a brand new tank. One of my concerns is the introduction of unwanted critters/fungi/algae in the piece(s) of live rock needed to seed the dry rock after the bleach and acid treatments. I would love to hear experiences of individuals who completed the seeding with minimal live rock or without it.

Thank you for all the information.

Keith P · 07/02/2010, 01:58 PM

My tank has been up for about 4 months. I seeded it with with two small rocks. The rocks I seeded with were from unestablished tanks. I also used MicrobeLift.

The tank is healthy and seems to have decent micro fauna. I have bristle worms, micro brittle stars and TONS of pods.

To me this proves that you don't need much life to seed a tank.

Every coral I have added has been dipped (Kent Tech-D) and was quarantined for at least a week. I have no unwanted pests. I couldn't be happier.

I am planning on adding Cheato to my refugium. I will quarantine this too as the first batch of Cheato I was given had hydroids!

For reference, my tank is a Tech 70 w/ 30G sump.

HighlandReefer · 07/02/2010, 02:07 PM

There are bacteria in the air that will re-populate your tank without introduction of live rock. Once you put your dry rock in your tank, you will need to provide a food supply to get the bacterial populations going. One can add a little fish food for this purpose. IMHO, providing a carbon source will help considerably to increase the rate of growth and reproduction of the bacteria that populate your tank from the air. Vodka and/or vinegar would be a good choice for this IMHO.

GatorPharmD · 07/02/2010, 06:57 PM

Thank you.

dirk_brijs · 08/26/2010, 10:07 AM

So after having read all this?
I only have a serious Phosphate problem
So soaking in Vinegar would get rid of that problem?
then just rinse well to get acid neutralised or baking soda right?
Dont need the bleach bathing I guess?

05/02/2010, 04:05 AM	#253
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Aiptasia are anemones, and have very distinct tentacles, etc, and don't create a skeleton. I don't know what the crust is, maybe just coralline. After a day and a half, the acid probably has been consumed, but I might check the pH to be sure. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/06/2010, 05:06 AM	#255
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	Bleach works the best for killing living organisms (algae) and also braking down their dead cells. Acid works best for removing the phosphate and heavy metals on your rock and sand surfaces. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

05/07/2010, 02:29 PM	#256
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The acid will kill the hair algae, although I agree that bleach is more commonly used as a strong disinfectant. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/07/2010, 08:37 PM	#258
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The usual guess is around 6-8 weeks to produce reasonably-functioning live rock, assuming there's enough food for bacterial growth, but the presence of live rock in the system might help reduce that, and it's only a guess. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/08/2010, 10:41 PM	#260
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	It can be put back into the tank after a thorough rinsing. It won't provide any filtration for a while, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/02/2010, 02:04 AM	#251
zubat Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 65	hey guys, i broke every rule as i didn't discover this thread sooner. i did the muriatic acid thing. my rocks were heavily coated with white and purple. they sat for 2 years. first i place all the rocks in two 7 gal buckets. i wore shorts and sandals no gloves, mask, goggles. i poured straight muriatic acid (from Ace) and watched amazed as all my evidences fizzle. i sprayed water into the buckets to rinse. splashing it all over the Lexus behind the buckets. i emptied the buckets of the water. all the rocks rolled out. i continue to line all the rocks on the floor and continue to pour acid on them. neighbors walked by. i hear them says "stinks" repeatedly. i high pressure sprayed the white coatings off. some rock pieces fell off. i flipped the rocks over. poured acid. sprayed. then as a final step, i placed all the rocks back into the buckets. poured what's left of acid i got. topped off with water. carried the buckets inside splashing as i go. i smiled as i felt my work was complete. it has been sitting for about 1 1/2 days now. i'm afraid to look as i may have dissolved all my rocks. good news though is there are no fingerprints to be found.

05/02/2010, 02:14 AM	#252
zubat Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 65	oh yea, question. is the thick white coating on my rocks aiptasia? is that what you guys trying to get rid of with the bleach? hey Aadler, while scrolling down this page your avatar looked like a nice golden rotisserie chicken. ummm.

05/05/2010, 10:05 PM	#254
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	So if I'm just trying to kill hair algae do i really need to do the bleach? Can i pull the rock scrub it with a steel brush then do the acid?

05/08/2010, 10:32 PM	#259
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	If im doing half my rock at a time after the first batch is done can i put it back in the tank or do i need to cure/reseed it outside of the tank?

05/09/2010, 08:52 AM	#261
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	Thats should be ok i have a deep sand bed and a refuge. Someone said that i should keep the other live rock in there for about a month to reseed, but if the other rock is covered in hair algae will that not give the hair algae a chance to reseed as well?

05/09/2010, 01:51 PM	#262
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Leaving the untreated live rock in the tank will allow various animals to move to the treated rock, but the hair algae will be able to spread, too. I was successful at killing hair algae off, so I don't consider it much of a problem, but others haven't been so lucky. The hair algae might have a harder time growing once all the rock has been treated, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/09/2010, 02:22 PM	#263
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	Thats what I'm hoping, the water in my tank has been nitrate and phosphate free for 5 months. Its got to be leaching out of the rock and dsb, so I'm going to do this to the rock, and slowly remove my sand till i have about 1-3". Is there a common use for sodium thiosulfate so i can try to find it locally? Thanks

05/09/2010, 02:34 PM	#264
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	It's used in black and white photographic processing, but I don't know of any more common uses. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/09/2010, 06:15 PM	#265
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	Thanks I'll just have to order it on-line.

05/10/2010, 04:59 PM	#266
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	Do you think theres a need to do the acid twice for 20 to 30 minutes?

05/10/2010, 05:04 PM	#267
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	No, I think one dip likely is fine. If the rock is still contaminated at that point, I'd pitch it. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

05/11/2010, 06:14 AM	#268
kdirk Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bismarck, ND Posts: 234	Ok Thanks

05/11/2010, 11:11 AM	#269
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	You're welcome! Good luck! __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/12/2010, 05:17 PM	#270
bugshop Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Anderson/ Belton S.C. Posts: 652	Hi All, I picked up a tank from a local reefer and it was covered with majano anemone. I just did all the rock from my tank. I put it in a 10:1 bleach mix for about 16 hrs. then mixed a 10:1 acid in one tote and baking soda and water in another tote and a tote of fresh water. After removing the rock from the bleach and rinsing well I put it into the acid until it stopped foaming, about 20 min. or so. then rinsed in fresh water and then rinsed in the backing soda water. Then I mixed another batch of acid dip and repeated. For the most part the rock is clean. It's darker than it was after I remover it from the bleach though... Thanks for this thread and all the info in it. __________________ Greenville, SC Reefer? Join the PMAC.

07/02/2010, 01:45 PM	#271
GatorPharmD Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: South FL Posts: 229	Going through this thread has been an exponential learning experience for me as I prepare to set up a brand new tank. One of my concerns is the introduction of unwanted critters/fungi/algae in the piece(s) of live rock needed to seed the dry rock after the bleach and acid treatments. I would love to hear experiences of individuals who completed the seeding with minimal live rock or without it. Thank you for all the information. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: Elos MIDI - automated control by Profilux 3

07/02/2010, 01:58 PM	#272
Keith P Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 101	My tank has been up for about 4 months. I seeded it with with two small rocks. The rocks I seeded with were from unestablished tanks. I also used MicrobeLift. The tank is healthy and seems to have decent micro fauna. I have bristle worms, micro brittle stars and TONS of pods. To me this proves that you don't need much life to seed a tank. Every coral I have added has been dipped (Kent Tech-D) and was quarantined for at least a week. I have no unwanted pests. I couldn't be happier. I am planning on adding Cheato to my refugium. I will quarantine this too as the first batch of Cheato I was given had hydroids! For reference, my tank is a Tech 70 w/ 30G sump.

07/02/2010, 02:07 PM	#273
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	There are bacteria in the air that will re-populate your tank without introduction of live rock. Once you put your dry rock in your tank, you will need to provide a food supply to get the bacterial populations going. One can add a little fish food for this purpose. IMHO, providing a carbon source will help considerably to increase the rate of growth and reproduction of the bacteria that populate your tank from the air. Vodka and/or vinegar would be a good choice for this IMHO. __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

07/02/2010, 06:57 PM	#274
GatorPharmD Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: South FL Posts: 229	Thank you. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: Elos MIDI - automated control by Profilux 3

08/26/2010, 10:07 AM	#275
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	So after having read all this? I only have a serious Phosphate problem So soaking in Vinegar would get rid of that problem? then just rinse well to get acid neutralised or baking soda right? Dont need the bleach bathing I guess?