Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by tripdad

Hello Matt, just curious...why the break at 3 - 4? Also, how do you fit all that lighting over one tank, must be packed overhead?

Hey Scott. I’m actually not sure where the daily dark period came from. I think I had originally done it as a way to acclimate new corals and for whatever reason, I liked what it did to the existing corals. But it coincided with my realizing that my photoperiod was too long. Or that I had too much intensity for too long. Looking at many super colored reefs - watchguy’s and BigE’s tanks come to mind.. they both have pretty short photoperiods. I wanted to reduce the hours of full intensity but still have a decent viewable timespan of lighting. So, the dark period is kind of like a daily cloud cover to give the coral a break from extreme photosynthesis. It was only after reducing the photoperiod that the orange really came out on my orange passion.
My tank is 32 inches from back to front. I have 3 t5 at the rear, then the 3 mh fixtures with a pair of Primes between them and then another 3 t5s at the front. It all fits quite nicely.

Originally Posted by Alfrareef

Thanks Matt.
Every day that passes I’m more pro T5 than ever.
I like led light, control capabilities and power saving, but I’m starting to believe that a hybrid solution it’s the best option for my tank.
Maybe Santa brings my tank a ATI Hybrid for coral grow and colors...

There is absolutely no question that the t5/mh combo is perfect for sps. It is tried and true and just plain bullet proof. Blue LEDs can really bring out more saturation from the corals and give them nice colour pop. T5/led combo also give you the best of both worlds with full spectrum and led ‘pop’
Having said that, the latest generation of radion pros can do some out of this world things to sps corals.
They can make the corals produce colours that you’d never believe were possible. This on top of keeping them happy, healthy and growing..
if I had several thousand dollars sitting around and I needed to redo my lights, I wouldn’t hesitate to use them.
But at the moment my lighting is pretty much ideal for me

[tripdad]

Thanks Matt. I've tried a 6 hour photoperiod but did not work for me, t5 only. I agree with you, Big E's colors are top notch, as are yours. I appreciate the info.

[Pife]

My goodness Matt. I missed a lot in several days. Nice updates. Great pictures and I really love that Robin hood frag.

Do you run kalkwasser? Could you give me a run down on your system as I'm thinking of incorporating it into my system. Thanks for any insight you can give.

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[Rakie]

I was completely surprised by your lighting until I saw the 3 Metal Halides, lol. I forgot about the Ushio's. 4 AI Primes and 6 T5's seemed to be getting some intense results haha.

[FloformAustria]

Holy moly Matt
Those FTS look incredible
Your tank is my favorite here!!!

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by tripdad

Thanks Matt. I've tried a 6 hour photoperiod but did not work for me, t5 only. I agree with you, Big E's colors are top notch, as are yours. I appreciate the info.

No problem, maybe height is playing a role? I remember Mhucasey playing around with the hieght of his fixture and getting better results..

Originally Posted by Pife

My goodness Matt. I missed a lot in several days. Nice updates. Great pictures and I really love that Robin hood frag.

Do you run kalkwasser? Could you give me a run down on your system as I'm thinking of incorporating it into my system. Thanks for any insight you can give.

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Hey Brandon, thanks! Yes I do run kalk. I have a kamoer single motor doser designed for continuous use. I currently run it at 8ml/min from 7 pm to 11 am. Overnight. Really great pump that kamoer. It pumps ro water into a Deltec Kalk stirrer. I add kalk to it each weekend to keep it fresh and well saturated.
This is on top of the calcium reactor which has a pretty high flow through it so I don’t get particularly high kh coming out but high flow.. I do this because I find it easier to regulate the flow through.

Originally Posted by Rakie

I was completely surprised by your lighting until I saw the 3 Metal Halides, lol. I forgot about the Ushio's. 4 AI Primes and 6 T5's seemed to be getting some intense results haha.

Yeah, I don’t even run the mh for very long but I think it puts thing over the top for photosynthesis and really makes the corals react but not for very long.

Originally Posted by FloformAustria

Holy moly Matt
Those FTS look incredible
Your tank is my favorite here!!!

Hey Flo thanks! That’s a very big compliment. Very nice to hear.

[selje]

Wow Matt, your tank is stunning! Superb pictures as always. Good work buddy

[Pife]

I myself am transitioning from running ultra low PH in my reactor to running higher pH with more flow. Do you think that a BRS dosing pump is strong enough to push Ro to my Aqua Medic kalkwasser stirrer? Any basis on how many milliliters to dose at night? I'm mainly trying to bring the pH of my system up higher because I experienced much much better growth when I can get above 8 pH.

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[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by selje

Wow Matt, your tank is stunning! Superb pictures as always. Good work buddy

Thanks, Andreas!

Originally Posted by Pife

I myself am transitioning from running ultra low PH in my reactor to running higher pH with more flow. Do you think that a BRS dosing pump is strong enough to push Ro to my Aqua Medic kalkwasser stirrer? Any basis on how many milliliters to dose at night? I'm mainly trying to bring the pH of my system up higher because I experienced much much better growth when I can get above 8 pH.

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If your stirrer is not under pressure, I would think any doser would pump through it. If it’s like my Deltec, it’s an open system so not under any pressure at all.
It is really tough to give an amount to start with kalkwasser. Really, the best way to start with kalk is to start off ridiculously slowly.
I’m not here how the hrs doser works. Is it a continuous doser or do you have to program dosing periods and amounts?
I would start with a four hour period of lowest ph- this should be the four hours leading up to your main lights coming on. Program the smallest amount of kalk you possibly can over that four hour period and see if it affects ph or alk/ca levels. Increase in tiny increments over a long period of time until you see an effect. Never push it with kalk.
It’s a tough thing to do when you are also running a ca reactor.
Speaking of which, do you have a separate crushed coral chamber that you can pump the ca reactor effluent through, before it goes back to the tank?
This might help absorb some extra co2.

[Pife]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

If your stirrer is not under pressure, I would think any doser would pump through it. If it’s like my Deltec, it’s an open system so not under any pressure at all.
It is really tough to give an amount to start with kalkwasser. Really, the best way to start with kalk is to start off ridiculously slowly.
I’m not here how the hrs doser works. Is it a continuous doser or do you have to program dosing periods and amounts?
I would start with a four hour period of lowest ph- this should be the four hours leading up to your main lights coming on. Program the smallest amount of kalk you possibly can over that four hour period and see if it affects ph or alk/ca levels. Increase in tiny increments over a long period of time until you see an effect. Never push it with kalk.
It’s a tough thing to do when you are also running a ca reactor.
Speaking of which, do you have a separate crushed coral chamber that you can pump the ca reactor effluent through, before it goes back to the tank?
This might help absorb some extra co2.

It isn't pressurized. It just constantly slowly turns. My brs pump doses at a fixed rate of 1.1ml per minute. I'll be running it off my apex. That sounds like a good plan. I'll just start out and go slow. Maybe 10 minutes every hour for the lowest four hours? Do you think 40 ml of saturated kalkwasser will do anything to 360ish gallons?

I just refilled my gassing off chamber completely full of extra course arm. I'm thinking of using an old geo recirculating sulfur denitatrator as a gas off chamber to see if that would help.

Thanks for the insight.

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[mtlreeffreak]

Awesome tank man!

[gregkn73]

Matt I am starting dosing nano3 to increase no3, I have a solution of 75gr/1lt water, and already dosed 10ml over 3 days, without any slightly darkening of salifert test colour :-( how many ml of kno3 did you dose to notice no3 increasing?

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[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Pife

It isn't pressurized. It just constantly slowly turns. My brs pump doses at a fixed rate of 1.1ml per minute. I'll be running it off my apex. That sounds like a good plan. I'll just start out and go slow. Maybe 10 minutes every hour for the lowest four hours? Do you think 40 ml of saturated kalkwasser will do anything to 360ish gallons?

I just refilled my gassing off chamber completely full of extra course arm. I'm thinking of using an old geo recirculating sulfur denitatrator as a gas off chamber to see if that would help.

Thanks for the insight.

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My system is also about 350g. I am running at 9ml/m for 16 hrs a day.. until recently, I was dosing half that amount (same timeframe). I have a pretty big reverse daylight cheato fuge and my ph has pretty much stayed the same from befor she increase to now..
I honestly don’t think it’ll make a huge difference. BUT, it’s a good starting point.
I’d be inclined to not run every ten minutes over four hours but instead start with 4 ten minute intervals over the course of the lowest ph hour. Then, add another ten minute interval until you get to 4 solid hours and the increase the amount of dosing hours.
Not sure that made sense.. basically, even though 1.1ml/min is a pretty mild dose for a 360g system, dosing one ten minute period every hour will have a potential yo yo effect. If you put the intervals closer together, the yo-yo will be reduced to hopefully a plateau effect. You want to then prolong the plateau over a longer and longer period..
Having said all this, I’m not so sure how much of an effect the 1.1ml/min will actually have.
Do you run a fuge? What is your ph?
Personally I think ph can really be pretty much ignored unless it dips below 7.7 or so..
Ph really isn’t so important as long as it isn’t going too low and then it’s usually an indicator of poor environmental conditions in the house..
Regardless of your motivation, though, I am a fan of kalk dosing..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by mtlreeffreak

Awesome tank man!

Thanks, mr. tuesday!

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Matt I am starting dosing nano3 to increase no3, I have a solution of 75gr/1lt water, and already dosed 10ml over 3 days, without any slightly darkening of salifert test colour :-( how many ml of kno3 did you dose to notice no3 increasing?

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Hey Greg, I’ve never used sodium nitrate, so I can’t really comment on a recommended dose.
When my n had gone down to around .2-0, I was adding about a teaspoon of cano3 and 10ml kno3 (Seachem’s flourish nitrogen) twice a week to get n just above 1ppm.
That’s for 350g system with a rapidly growing cheato fuge. Not sure if this info can really be used formylur purposes..
How big is your tank? How many fish? Do you have a fuge?

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Hey Greg, I’ve never used sodium nitrate, so I can’t really comment on a recommended dose.
When my n had gone down to around .2-0, I was adding about a teaspoon of cano3 and 10ml kno3 (Seachem’s flourish nitrogen) twice a week to get n just above 1ppm.
That’s for 350g system with a rapidly growing cheato fuge. Not sure if this info can really be used formylur purposes..
How big is your tank? How many fish? Do you have a fuge?

Thank you Matt , it was very useful info. I am dosing too little to see a result. My system is 210g net volume with ATS, chaeto, Dsb, cryptic zone , and Donovan's denitrator=heterotrophic bacteria reactor but no skimmer. 75gr of nano3 is probably 3-4 teaspoons, which in cano3 morph you dose in 2 weeks and I by adding 3ml/day I will add in 50 weeks, so I should increase my dosage considerably :-)

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[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Thank you Matt , it was very useful info. I am dosing too little to see a result. My system is 210g net volume with ATS, chaeto, Dsb, cryptic zone , and Donovan's denitrator=heterotrophic bacteria reactor but no skimmer. 75gr of nano3 is probably 3-4 teaspoons, which in cano3 morph you dose in 2 weeks and I by adding 3ml/day I will add in 50 weeks, so I should increase my dosage considerably :-)

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No problem, Greg. But.. wow! You have an ats, cheato, dsb, AND a denitrator. You may need a truck load of nano3.. those are all strong nitrate sinks..
I can only assume you are battling a HUGE po4 problem..
If po4 isn’t your issue, why all the nutrient sinks and the addition of nitrate on top of them?
How old is the dsb?

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

No problem, Greg. But.. wow! You have an ats, cheato, dsb, AND a denitrator. You may need a truck load of nano3.. those are all strong nitrate sinks..
I can only assume you are battling a HUGE po4 problem..
If po4 isn’t your issue, why all the nutrient sinks and the addition of nitrate on top of them?
How old is the dsb?

Matt the Dsb was set up since the beginning of my tank 2,5 years ago, but except the 3-6 cm at the top, I am pretty sure that nothing happening any deeper.

ATS and chaeto are really efficient at reducing both no3 po4 but also many more nasties,

And denitrator "productivity" depends at my dosing of carbon.....

My po4 since stopping usage of gfo 6 months ago is fluctuatimg between 0.15-0.2, but green dusting algae on the glass and little but persistent cyanobacteria , is the reason for dosing nano3, I wanted to increase the ratio of no3/ po4. My no3 are steady at 1ppm for at least 4 months but the last month I am cleaning the glass every 2-3 days ,instead of 5-6 since stopping gfo and cyanobacteria reappear after nearly a year.

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[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Matt the Dsb was set up since the beginning of my tank 2,5 years ago, but except the 3-6 cm at the top, I am pretty sure that nothing happening any deeper.

ATS and chaeto are really efficient at reducing both no3 po4 but also many more nasties,

And denitrator "productivity" depends at my dosing of carbon.....

My po4 since stopping usage of gfo 6 months ago is fluctuatimg between 0.15-0.2, but green dusting algae on the glass and little but persistent cyanobacteria , is the reason for dosing nano3, I wanted to increase the ratio of no3/ po4. My no3 are steady at 1ppm for at least 4 months but the last month I am cleaning the glass every 2-3 days ,instead of 5-6 since stopping gfo and cyanobacteria reappear after nearly a year.

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I see. You have the same problem I have.. persistent po4.
Your denitrator is such a specific piece of equipment. Why not discontinue its use and see where n goes instead of using it and dosing n at the same time?

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

I see. You have the same problem I have.. persistent po4.
Your denitrator is such a specific piece of equipment. Why not discontinue its use and see where n goes instead of using it and dosing n at the same time?

Google Donovan's denitrator, it is a thread here in diy , to see what it is exactly. I use it generally for increased bacteria population. I have noticed that only with increased bacteria population, I have very little film algae onto the glass. Before the reactor even with 0 po4, with Hanna 736, I have to clean the glass every 3-4 days. With optimum denitrator usage = splitting doses of 1ml carbon through out the day, without gfo and po4 between 0,15-0,2 I have to clean the glass most of the time every 6 days, so something good was happening in there:-) last month after the summer vacations , i started to clean more often the glass, even every other day, and small patches of cyano reappeared. So I thought to increase the dosages of 1 ml carbon from 7to 9 and dose some nano3 to increase bacteria population and bring down po4 and reduce cyano and frequency of film algae cleaning.

PS Today morning I dosed 5ml nano3, and I thing I am seeing now i am home,some more cyano, so maybe I should reconsider the above strategy

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Google Donovan's denitrator, it is a thread here in diy , to see what it is exactly. I use it generally for increased bacteria population. I have noticed that only with increased bacteria population, I have very little film algae onto the glass. Before the reactor even with 0 po4, with Hanna 736, I have to clean the glass every 3-4 days. With optimum denitrator usage = splitting doses of 1ml carbon through out the day, without gfo and po4 between 0,15-0,2 I have to clean the glass most of the time every 6 days, so something good was happening in there:-) last month after the summer vacations , i started to clean more often the glass, even every other day, and small patches of cyano reappeared. So I thought to increase the dosages of 1 ml carbon from 7to 9 and dose some nano3 to increase bacteria population and bring down po4 and reduce cyano and frequency of film algae cleaning.

PS Today morning I dosed 5ml nano3, and I thing I am seeing now i am home,some more cyano, so maybe I should reconsider the above strategy

Cyano has a bloody life of its own. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I probably won’t wait too long before I treat mine..
I find that if you wait too long, it sets up its own ecosystem and skews the whole system it is in.
I prefer to kill it early before it establishes itself..
Curious to see if the added no3 helps pull down your p..

[slavetonet]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Cyano has a bloody life of its own. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I probably won’t wait too long before I treat mine..
I find that if you wait too long, it sets up its own ecosystem and skews the whole system it is in.
I prefer to kill it early before it establishes itself..
Curious to see if the added no3 helps pull down your p..

Do you know why you are getting cyano in the first place?
The time I got it is when I just finished the 14 days cycle.
From NO3 of 100+ppm and PO4 of 0.38ppm to ULNS in 3 days - without any water change at all.
I think you want to look carefully at your actual organic balance in your system.
Peel back all the layers of cheatos, mechanical filtration and whatever else you have going on to control your nutrients.
Objectively see your input and output of nutrients with rate of tank water turnover ratio.

Anyway I have ramble on too much now.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Cyano has a bloody life of its own. I don’t have a lot of patience for it. I probably won’t wait too long before I treat mine..
I find that if you wait too long, it sets up its own ecosystem and skews the whole system it is in.
I prefer to kill it early before it establishes itself..
Curious to see if the added no3 helps pull down your p..

I've had my share of Cyano days.
Learned never to blow the stuff off the rocks EVER!! or it can spread like wildfire. (In this case if was also too much RED LED lights/Nutrients Leaching out of new rocks).

So best it to Siphon EARLY PATCHES out of tank, and not spread around.

Since then I always treat with a mix of (Zeovit Zeobak in Coral Snow), and if not good enough I use (Zeovit Cyano Clean in Coral Snow).
Either product is soaked in Coral Snow (for 5 mins), and then dosed into tank for overnight treatment. (Daily till Cyano disappears)
Works best at first sign of Cyano. (Did this last week, and Cyano gone).

[slavetonet]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

I've had my share of Cyano days.
Learned never to blow the stuff off the rocks EVER!! or it can spread like wildfire. (In this case if was also too much RED LED lights/Nutrients Leaching out of new rocks).

So best it to Siphon EARLY PATCHES out of tank, and not spread around.

Since then I always treat with a mix of (Zeovit Zeobak in Coral Snow), and if not good enough I use (Zeovit Cyano Clean in Coral Snow).
Either product is soaked in Coral Snow (for 5 mins), and then dosed into tank for overnight treatment. (Daily till Cyano disappears)
Works best at first sign of Cyano. (Did this last week, and Cyano gone).

I don't know what you are doing to make them stay.
I have done 3 of my recent tanks and don't have issues even when it break out, I know what to fix it with.
End of the day, it is a bacteria form, best way is have other desirable bacteria to out compete it.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by slavetonet

End of the day, it is a bacteria form, best way is have other desirable bacteria to out compete it.

That's exactly what treating with ZeoBak or Cyanoclean is all about. It's just quicker at the start.
I assume there are other cheaper more natural ways to achieve this.
Especially in a Larger Tanks where the products are not cost effective.