Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")

[biomekanic]

Lighting: I have a 25.5" x 4.5" x 12" HOB refugium with excellent Chaeto growth ( harvest about 1/2 to 2/3 every month). For lighting I use 2x 23w Panasonic GenIV 5000K bulbs in a "standard" dual incandescent aquarium hood. I modified the hood by putting in a reflector I picked up from Ahsupply.com. All told, it cost me about $40 for the whole works. After putting in the reflector, I got much better growth. The bulbs are good for about 14 - 16 months, when I was running them 24/7. I've switched to having the HOB on at the same time as the main lights, with the sump/refugium on reverse. When I first got the bulbs, they were $14.99 at a local light store, last time, same store, the price had dropped to $11.99, and according to the merchant, prices will continue to drop. IME, this is also a nice light if you want to do a planted FW or marine macro algae nano tank.
http://www.buylighting.com/Panasonic-GenIV.htm

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Chris... indeed - I wear the badge too

and much thanks for the lighting tip Mike/Bio Very good point about using a good reflector. If one is going to use lights for most any reason at all... a quality reflector is a must.

Anthony

[tabwyo]

Mr. Calfo, I am currently rigging up a scrubber fuge and would like your input. The fuge itself is a 58 quart "rubbermaid" container. I ntend to run 100% of my display overflow(roughly 290GPH) through it. I have read this thread a couple times and I have begun to have and idea. I can cut and bend a piece of plexi as a horizontal deflector that my overflow would dump onto. I would place this deflector about 10" from one side of the container deflecting the water into the larger area of the fuge. Giving me roughly 3/4 of the fuge area for a chaeto tumbler. Under the deflecto I would have an eggcrate wall to corral my chaeto ball. My outlet would be behind this "wall" and surrounded with extra rock rubble and such. This end of the fuge I hope will have a much less hecktic flow pattern and allow a last chance area of detritus to settle out befor it enters the sump. The entire fuge will have a shallow live sand bed as well. Any thoughts would be helpfull.

[Anthony Calfo]

please call me Anthony, my friend.

As best I can visualize, your notion sounds essentially fine. The vessel is small enough that manipulations to get the pattern you need will be relatively simple. No worries.

I do have some wonder and minor concern about the egg grate barrier. I'm not sure its needed and do expect that it will trap or hitch some Chaetomorpha.

Actually... in the big picture, you may not need to tumble Chaetomorpha at all in this refugium. Again, it is small enough in size that lighting and water flow will not be as difficult or expensive to produce as on a much larger refugium.

And since I'm a (very) big fan of keeping systems as simple as possible, I'm suggesting you maybe forego most of the customizing of this vessel and see how it flies at first. Adjust as/if needed afterwards

best of luck, life

Anthony

[tabwyo]

Will do, I have passed my fist leak test and I am biulding the deflector as I type. I was only thinking of the eggcrate as a way to keep the chaeto away from my outlet.

[charlesgage]

how is this setup at about 500 GPH of flow, it is in a 40g long 48x12x12

1 - 5 gal
2 - 4 gal
3- 16 gal
4 - 2 gal

comments? changes?

[Anthony Calfo]

above all things else... then skimmer needs to get all raw water first. Otherwise, organics that you would prefer to be exported are allowed to linger as sediment, get tied up in refugia otherwise, etc.

Be very direct about aggressive skimming and supply it with first chamber raw water.

The water flow may also need to be increased (because the baffles are very diffusive)

[charlesgage]

Well i already have it built and chamber 4 is too small for a sump, any suggestions that only involve plumbing changes or removing walls?

[Anthony Calfo]

you could build a small vessel just slightly larger than the footprint of the skimmer and place it inline next to the sump (and slightly higher) so that it gets raw water first then overflows (to the sump, again).

Else your skimmer performance will be seriously handicapped IMO.

Or... sell the sump you have to someone that does not place an emphasis on skimming ( they do larger water changes, lower bio-load, etc) and rebuild your sump.

do it right the first time, mate... you have a lot of money, time and life forms invested in this tank.

Anthony

[charlesgage]

1. where would the raw water come from (for the skimmer)?
2. I would have built it right the first time, but that is how i was told to build it!
3. I assume that if i switch the skimmer to go before the fuge, than all will be good? I could just move the one wall.

[Anthony Calfo]

yes... do switch the skimmer before the refugium if not giving it a catch basin (inline and before the sump) of its own.

No worries. And seeing you are from MI state.. are you aware of Preuss Animal House up north (Lansing area I think). Rick Preuss is one of the most conscientious merchants/people in the aquarium hobby/industry. A fine aquarium and pet store.

best of luck,

Anthony

[charlesgage]

Thanks, i have not been yet, I am heading out to preuss this weekend to get some livestock, I will talk to them, I can say hi if you want!

[Anthony Calfo]

They are all great folks... truly so.

But if/when you start to attend the hobby conferences like MACNA, you will soon develop an appreciation for how much work Rick Preuss has done for the industry.

best regards, Anthony

[tabwyo]

If the refugium has a sandbed, what critters would you stock.

[Anthony Calfo]

I like refugia for nitrate reduction (DSB) and zooplankton production (Chaetomorpha or unlit with a polyester fiber matrix to grow them in). Do check out some of the other threads on refugiums and stocking them in this forum and beyond.

[Bugger]

Hi Anthony Im just wondering what you mean by Raw water into the skimmer? At what flow rate would sand start blowing around? Is DBS really worth the trouble and expense.
Did people jump the gun with bare botton.
like you said most people run low flow rates through there refugiums bacteria rely heavly on strong currents to bring them nutriunts.
Also particle size and sand depth have little to do with bacteria numbers.
Sorry if this is just all just yesterday's news

Reference's
Adams,G and S. Spotte. 1985. "Carbonate Mineral Filtrants and New Surfaces Reduce Alkalinity in Seawater and Artificial Seawater:
Preliminary findings."Aquacult Eng 4:305-311
Anderson, T.K., M. H. Jensen and J. Soreensen. 1984. "Diurnal Variations of Nitrogen Cycling in Coastal, Marine Sediments I. "Mar Biol 83:171-176
Capone, D G., S. E. Dunhan, S. G. Horrigan and L. E. Duguay. 1992. "micorbial Nitrogen Transformation in Unconsolidalted Caroal Reef Sediments."Mar Ecol Prog Series 80:75-88.
Coull, B.C., M.A. Palmer and P.E. Myers. 1989. "Controls on the Vertical Disttribution of Meiobenthos in Mud."Mar Ecol Prog Series 55:133-140.

[wayne in norway]

Raw water to the skimmer means raw tank water goes to the skimmer first - this is the dirtiest water. Skim out as much as possible, pass this cleaned water to the filter bacteria to reduce load on them.
I will read the references you quote. However my first impressions would be , based on experience looking at sand beds in tanks and beaches that you are right to say bacterial numbers aren't much affescted by particle size and depth. However what I would say is that both of these, and water flow have direct efects on the behaviour of some of these bacteria as they have a control on the flow of oxygenated water through a sand bed.
Particle size increases - thickness aerobic layer increases as water penetrates more easily
Depth - more depth .... well obviously dissolved oxygen content decreases with depth
Water flow - higher = greater thickness richly aerobic zone.

SO it's not necessarily a measure of mow many bacteria are there, as to what they're getting up to.

[Anthony Calfo]

... and we are not talking about a beach on/near a reef... we are talking about a comparatively lifeless bed of sand in an aquarium with a staggeringly miniscule rate of water flow and exchange compared to the a given/analyzed portion of a beach.

In so many ways, we are talking about two different realities here. And so, we make concessions to the artifacts of captivity. That is the only biology I personally speak to/about. Aquarium science... not aquatic science, if you will

I do appreciate the references, Bugger... but 3/4 are 15-20 years old... the fourth is fast approaching that. Aquarium science and Aquatic science have evolved considerably since these excellent works were published, with all due respect my friend.

Anthony

[turbo2oh]

I'm bringing this thread back to life theres lots of good info here. I'm planning on building my own HOB fuge for my 29g. I plan on only having chaeto in there no sand bed or LR, and maybe a snail or two to help keep the walls clean.

I knew I wanted to keep the chaeto tumbling and was trying to come up with a good design for that. Its been hard for me to visualize some of the models discussed here so I made a quick model myself.

Please keep in mind I have no background in fluid dynamics I still have no idea how to setup the "spillover" area to return the water to the main tank. If Anthony or anyone could provide feedback that would be great.

[Anthony Calfo]

if the return water is a narrow nozzle, it will not move the surface adequately in a shear wave/wall.

That's the reason for the sealed plate under the surface of the water... to splash and divert the incurrent stream into a laminar plane of water. A spray bar could be a workable compromise here... although I've never liked the (poor) serviceability of spray bars.

[turbo2oh]

Thanks, I'm still a little confused though, should it be similar to my 2nd drawing or should the flow exit below the "sealed plate"? Does anyone have a link to a pic of a system like this?

[Anthony Calfo]

ah, I see. The second drawing my friend. I did not realize the line under the effluent pipe was a sealed plate (do draw an end wall perhaps for sharing this diagram in the future. A good diagram indeed).

And this plate need not be very large. Just a couple inches wide.

I saw this on Steve Pro's refugium. Perhaps he has or can take a picture to share.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
I saw this on Steve Pro's refugium. Perhaps he has or can take a picture to share.

The best picture I have of my sump/refugium is here,
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=500

[Anthony Calfo]

ah, fab! You can see the sealed glass lip on the right side very well (lust under the surface of the water). Works very well for causing a rolling action to the water for tumbling Radiolarian, Chaetomorpha etc... reduces the qty of light needed, stimulates vigor/growth in such algae, etc.

[walt13]

Anthony-

I have another question about flow rates. You helped me with my upstream 15 gal fuge and changing sand beds in my 55 gal FOWLR. We also discussed greyhounds a bit. I took your advice and did not lose any fish, snail, crabs ect. Thank you.

Now for my question. For the fuge I am going to use a mag 5 pump instead of a smaller powerhead. If I send all the water through the pump I will have roughly 400 GPH using the head loss calculator. I am planning on Chaeto and having a deep sand bed 6-8''. Would you recommend sending all the water through the fuge ore splitting it and having some return directly to the tank? The return form the fuge will be gravity fed.

thanks Walt