Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[FishGuttz]

Matt,
I voted in your poll. I had a mandarin about 15 years ago. It was in a 30g reef. I didn't know about specialty feeding at the time. He died rather quickly, certainly not due to old age!!

[mwp]

A quick headcount today yielded about a dozen live larvae as of 11:30 AM...this is pretty good so far. I added 2 basters of the Mandarin Phyto Mix and went on to do my normal daily culture feedings. At some point this evening I think I'm going to strain the L-Strain / Copepod co cultures through 110 or 53 and collect in 10, getting only the smallest of smallest live goodies and add that in for the babies right about the time they should start feeding.

MP

[mwp]

So around 1:00 I seived my cultures...tried getting movies of the the results but they were bad, pics aren't all that helpful other than for showing the scale of what was collected.

Basically, I seived portions of each of my two Tiggerpod cultures through 53 micron, and collected the pass-through with 10 micron. The Blue Line in each photo is roughly 1" (for scale). Here's what was collected:

Tiggerpod culture #1, 12 basters:


Tiggerpod culture #2, 6 basters harvested:


I then harvested a combined total of 20 basters from my 3 L-Strain Rotifer cultures and again strained through 53 micron, collecting food with a 10 micron sieve. Here's what I got:



Now, what was really surprising was how much living stuff came through the 53 micron seive, the size that's typically recommended to use for harvesting rotifers for larval fish feed! Tons of really small living creatures...far too small to identify with the 10X loop. All three samples shown above were added to the larval tank as they're now at 36 hours, should have mouths and should start feeding. The cultures were fed my standard phyto mix a couple hours before harvesting, so they should have full guts of live phyto, good for the HUFA's

FWIW,

MP

[shadowman70]

bump

[mwp]

Here's a "bump" from the larval tank - last night I did a headcount around 1:00 AM - found 6 larvae. They were starting to show visible eyes at that point. This morning I did another headcount and made it up to 8 larvae in the 10 gallon. It's definitely theoretcially possible that there are more that I just missed...they're still REALLY small at this point.

The larvae got another 2 basters of "mandarin mix" just now, and I harvetest about 1 liter of SS-Strain rotifers, collected in a 10 micron seive, and set them aside to enrich with a couple drops of Selcon. Later today I may do a water change to bring down the rotifer population in the larval tank, and then introduce the enriched rotifers.

8 larvae as of about 30 hours...

MP

[BrianPlankis]

MP,

This is so exciting, I'm so happy you stuck with this through all the frustration you experienced. Keep us informed.

Brian

[FMarini]

matt- fantastic
gotta love your ingenuity. I too am surprised at the amount of life in your tiggerpod cultures, esp at <53um in size. Do you have access to a Qx3, or 5. I'd be interested what exactly you have in that culture, hopefully pod nauplii, but yeah never know

[mwp]

Frank! My tiggerpod cultures are VERY cyclical, and I know I have rotifers in them, but not sure what else! The QX5 is "coming"...waiting for some cash from Aquatic Eco and it'll be turned into a microscope The things I'll be able to post..I have to thank MR. UGLY for his Frogfish thread that so clearly illustrates the power and value of even this simple toy digital microscope!

The latest update; the "enriching" water was cleared by the rotifers in about a 3-4 hour timeframe and they got dumped in with the rest of the "life" in the larval tank. I did another check of the Salinity / Specific Gravity, still up at 1.025/ 33. So...I'm going to SLOWLY bring the SG down to closer around 1.022 or 1.023 through the course of the day, and once we're there, I'll make the determination if a water change is in order OR if I can just add another gallon of saltwater (the thank looks like it's holding 8 gallons of water right now; when I set it back up I think it had 5 or 6 gallons.

We still have 8 LARVAE, all floating around, eating and very lively for mandarin larvae! I'm not holding my breath though!

Anyway, this is what went into the tank. 1 Liter of SS-Strain Rotifers sieved through 10 micron, then placed in a cup, enriched with selcon, poured through the 10 micron sieve again, drained, collected and placed on a microscope slide on the "makeshift" microsope.




ONE "OOPS" I caught in my morning post above but can't edit, we're not at "30 hours"...that was a long time ago. We are currently at 64 hours and change with approximately 8 viable active larvae out of a spawn of 613 eggs.

FWIW,

MP

[mwp]

6-30-06, 12:00 AM - WE've HAD A SPAWN! - sometime in the last hour a bunch of eggs were spawned (turned off the pumps and went to watch TV). Not sure what I'm going to do with them and I have some other cool stuff to post...more soon.

MATT

[mwp]

OK, first up, another MOVIE I shot around 11:00 PM or so; this is one lone larvae, around 71 hours post spawn, making his way through a sea of rotifers and other goodies. Quicktime, about 16 MB. No need to listen to the audio...I suggest turning your volume down. You'll really quickly get an idea why it's so hard to get an accurate count of viable larvae in a 10 gallon tank (FWIW I think we're still around 8 as of this evening!)

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN3016.mov

Tonight's spawn got collected, counted and dumped in the 10 gallon...can only give me some more babies to play with, right? It looked like a small spawn, the female was not "sickly-fat" this evening. The actual egg count of HARVESTED and photographed eggs is 213.

These eggs obviously sat a bit longer and were well on their way to developing. At least 50% looked like a ball of cells within an outer shell with some "void" area; a few looked like they were in the process of "folding over" into two halves that would ultimately create the bilateral symetry (I'm sure there's more technical terms for these early stages of larval development...not going to bother to look them up). I'd guess these eggs sat for as long as 1.5 hours post spawning before they were photographed.

One more update on the larval rearing tank...over the course of the evening I added an entire gallon of freshwater to the tank. The larvae seem unaffected by this gradual reduction in salinity...hopefully it'll ease up some of the osmitic pressures their little bodies have to deal with.

FWIW,

Matt

[Mr. Ugly]

Originally posted by mwp
The QX5 is "coming"...waiting for some cash from Aquatic Eco and it'll be turned into a microscope The things I'll be able to post..I have to thank MR. UGLY for his Frogfish thread that so clearly illustrates the power and value of even this simple toy digital microscope!

Heh, I'll have to thank Dr. Marini for that recommendation

Only wished that I had picked one up sooner!

[Mr. Ugly]

Gonna check out the vid later. This puter doesn't have QT loaded yet.

Keep up the good work, man!

[mwp]

Well, this morning there's still larvae in there...counted 4 or 5 of 'em without even looking! No hatch on last night's spawn yet.

Feed wise, they got 2 basters of the Mandarin Phyto Mix (about 3 oz) and I seived my cultures again through 53, collecting food in 10 micron. Not as much as last time, about 6 basters (9-10 oz) of each Tiggerpod, and 4 basters each of each L-Strain Rotifer. This also went into the tank (which I think now is definitely in need of some rotifer harvest!). I got some good pics of the seived food - tried shooting through the 10X loop and got somewhat interesting pics. Enjoy!



MP

[mwp]

Another update of sorts, I shot a PM off to Mr. Martin Moe asking if he had any suggestions on improving both hatch rates and first foods. Martin agreed to let me share his comments here:

I couldn't figure out how to respond to your messsage
on Reef Central so I'm just sending an email. I had
the same problem with flame angel eggs a while back.
What I did was to take brood tank water, about a
quart, add chlorine to it in the early afternoon (5 to
10 ppm), then just about lights out decholorinate it
with sodiuim Thiosulphate, then collect the eggs after
spawning in a fine mesh net and place them in the
prepared water (a jar) with an airstone. In the
morning, the eggs were perfect. It changes a mortality
of 98% to a survival rate of 98%. ANd the the eggs
were all clear and clean, no funny white spots and the
larvae were strong and active.

This worked for me with the flames, but you tried it
with the mandrins and it didn't? if not I have no
other suggestions at this point.

good luck,

Martin

Martin's suggestions are indeed useful and the KEY thing to me is the pre-harvesting and sterilization of PARENTAL tank water...I haven't done exactly that yet, instead sterilizing a different batch of water that may have differing water chemistry. If it works for Flame Angelfish, maybe it'll work for Madnarins! Next spawn I'm going to give this a shot and see what happens!

Matt

[mwp]

More maintenance updates - I think we lost a few larvae today. I'm pretty sure I saw one FLOATING (a lot of them have been close to the surface, but this one looked dead and stuck in the surface film)...

So, I haven't done a water test YET, but I did siphon out 4 gallons of water...siphoned out 2 larvae but I think it was the same one twice; each time it was rescued from the 10 micron seive and placed back in the tank. Anyway, new water is mixing up and I'll gradually add it in throughout the day, at least 2 gallons worth today and maybe more tomorrow. And yes, I'll be doing a water test.

On last night's spawn, we've had some hatch..I counted at least 6 larvae.

FWIW,

Matt

[mwp]

Well, 2 gallons of freshly mixed saltwater have gone in since 3:00 (it's now 4:45). I did a water test, it was already pristine...pH 8.2, free ammonia 0 ppm, total ammonia 0.05 ppm or so, Nitrite 0 ppm...basically any larval losses are NOT due to water quality issues.

All of the larvae were up at the water's SURFACE at 3:30 PM...not sure what that's all about but I DID get to see one open up it's "HUGE" mouth and take down a rotifer...very cool!

MP

[mwp]

Well, we're just past 96 hours on the larger babies - over the last 24 hours we lost 75% of the larvae from the spawn on the 27th. 2 left, lookin' "OK" but not very fat I added some 2 more basters of "Mandarin Mix" around 9:30 PM...actually found 2 bodies...frustrated at the moment! we're down to 2 from 613, well there are another 6 babies about 26 hours old...

MP

[mwp]

103.5 hours in, those 2 larvae made it through the night but man they look skinny! It's not like there isn't enough food, water quality is fine, but they seem a bit lethargic. I added a small splash of Nannochloropsis straight from a culture (the stuff in the fridge is a bit old at this point) as well as a bit of T-Ios from the cultures as well...can't hurt to round out the nutritional profile a bit more than just T-Iso and Tet. I don't think they're looking all that good at this point...we'll see.

MP

[Luis A M]

Wow,your film is great!.looks like an OVNI in outer soace!
And sound effects are terrific!
Using new or broodstock water have both pros and cons.I would try new water.

[mwp]

7-2-06, 12:25 AM - WE HAVE ANOTHER SPAWN! - It happened after midnight, I know that to be sure as I checked and then went off on the search for larvae.

BTW, for the record, we are now around 120 hours with the oldest larvae and they are actively swimming and feeding...got to see several strikes and at least a couple rotifer takedowns!

Wasn't prepared for a spawn tonight so I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet!

Matt

[Krypticol]

congrats Matt, 120 hours and active that is just awesome.
Very happy to know the dedication you have put into this.
keep up thegreat work, you are pioneering here.

[mwp]

Alrighty, so at 12:50 AM I pulled out 1/2 gallon of the parental tank water. Gave it 1 ML regular household bleach.

1:20 AM, tested the water with a dip clorine test - off the scale! Added 1 ML of Prime, swirled it, tested again, all gone! Swirled it a bit more and retested, still 0 free and 0 total chlorine! Not necessarily exactly what Martin Moe suggested, but close enough for a first try. They are now sitting in a 1/2 gallon specimen cup in the parental tank (for temperature regulation) with an air feed doing about 2-3 bubbles per second. By tomorrow afternoon I think we'll have a good idea what type of success this "Bleached parental water" might yield.

Now, historically I have not had any good successes incubating in this particular "specimen cup with air feed" type setup before, so even if it completely fails, I may be able to chalk it up to the container/circulation, not a disproval of Moe's suggestion. However, I still fail to see how doing the same thing in simply a larger container can make that much difference...the dimensions are roughly compareable, temperature regulation would be perhaps even more stable in the specimen cup (24 gallon tank vs. 10). I ALSO think it took me a relatively LONG time to set up this evening...there easily could have been a temperature DROP while waiting for the bleach (the eggs were in a small cup with little water) and then all the counting/photographing before finally getting put into the incubation vessel. My MAIN reason for going this route is that I have those 2 older larvae + a few from the subsequent (and now prior) spawn...I don't want any more dead eggs rotting in the tank NOR did I want to drain the tank and start over. However, whatever hatches in the specimen cup will likely go into the 10 gallon tank tomorrow evening. Well..we'll see.

I then started counting the eggs...just before 1:55 AM I was done with the picture taking. 2:25 AM I finished up counting all the eggs in the pictures - 458 eggs tonight!

Since the eggs obviously sat around a while again, I also wanted to remark that I looked at the pics with an extra side-note...I was looking for signs of viability / development...usually around this time there's a little cell mass of sorts as a sphere inside a larger sphere. Using that as my criteria for a "fertilized egg" I want to say that roughly 95% or higher were fertilized. If this is indeed the case then we really have to focus in further on incubation techniques to maximize hatch rates - microscope observations on future spawns will help confirm if what I'm seeing is actually a cell mass vs. an oil deposit or something.

I'm starting to notice some sort of relationship between the amount I feed in the day or two prior to a spawn and the number of eggs produced. I can't really quantify by the amount of food being eaten by the mandarins, but I can tell you that yesterday they got fed 3-4 times whereas a spawn like our 200 some odd spawn was immediately proceded by some time out of town where Renee's sister was only instructed to feed once per day. I'm not going to dive any further into researching this relationship between food availability vs. fecudity, but I just want to let you guys know that it appears that bigger spawns are the result of more frequent feedings (and thus more food available throughout the day).

MP

[mwp]

Originally posted by Krypticol
congrats Matt, 120 hours and active that is just awesome.
Very happy to know the dedication you have put into this.
keep up thegreat work, you are pioneering here.

Thanks Krypt! I don't know that I'd say I'm "pioneering" since at least a few individuals before me have successfully reared various Synchiropus. It does seem that more folks have done it with ease when wild plankton is utilized but I really can't say for certain - you'll notice RSMan has the "proof" right in his avitar, some citations from Moe's email, C-Quest, Sadovy, Mai and others have all raised S. splendidus.

Where I'd like to maybe contribute is to figure out a no-nonsense formula for success. We ALL know that we're going to lose larvae, that's a given - i.e. I lost 75% of the older larvae yesterday...that's a big hit. RSMan has suggested two developmental points where you'll lose as many as 60% of the live larvae at each stage....when you're starting with hatches of only 2-3 dozen on the best ones, the numerical odds are simply so against you, especially when you consider my INEXPERIENCE raising any marine larvae. However, if I could get a HIGH hatch rate and start out with TONS of larvae, the odds simply go up...suddenly losing 60% of 400 babies almost becomes a necessity if all you have to raise the with is 1 10 gallon tank!

Thanks for the props Krypt - I aim to please

Matt

[mwp]

FAT BELLIES! I took one last look at the larvae this evening...the ones from two days ago have their eyes, and while I only found 1 of the oldest ones (2 spawns prior now) man what a joy to watch! It was CRUISING on a rampage of destruction...taking a stab at something every 1-2 seconds. VERY VERY actively feeding but honestly, I don't exactly know WHAT it's eating as it's too small for me to see. YES, I've seen them take down smaller rotifers, but there's something else in here they're feeding on that are likely smaller than adult SS strain (no doubt I have some L-Strain rotifers in here as well now...it's one big jumble of life in the 10 gallon tank!) My biggest joy is seeing the fat belly on this active little larvae! Even if I only get to see my mandarins this far (which hasn't happened very often) they are some of the neatest little fish...and FWIW looks NOTHING like the parents. Take one of those lanternfish with the huge heads and sabertooth jaws and miniaturize the heck out of it...the mouth opens up as big as the whole head and make the coloration an olive-green type...that's what thse baby mandarins look like to the naked eye right now!

I THINK the 24 hour lighting has maybe helped just a wee bit but I also think they could use brighter and more direct lighting overhead. Perhaps that's for future experiments..it just seems like the larvae go into a berzerk feeding frenzy every time I'm highlighting them with the flashlight (granted they're pretty hard to observe otherwise).

MP

[Krypticol]

Your getting there! Sounds like offering lots of different types, sizes of food is starting to mimic wild plankton maybe.?
Pull that off while keeping their water params good and you might have something...Not as easy as it was to type obviously.
what other first food are there? what more could be offered?
there is certainly more super tiny critter on the reefs than we have access to....I remember seeing a compmay selling liters of live wild plankton, 1 gearing towards copepods, and one not...
I will checkit out...could besomething there.