Reef Central Online Community
Live Aquaria

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > Invert and Plant Forums > Marine Plants & Macroalgae
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 09/11/2014, 03:13 PM   #126
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
http://mblaquaculture.com/content/or..._beryllina.php


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 03:30 PM   #127
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Sweet! A source for live silversides! Dr.Brain Coral, I thank you. Yet another reason these forums are awesome. Information exchange at its best!


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 03:56 PM   #128
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Your Welcome. Hey I want to suggest something. I was wondering if you wanted to make a thread on Nano Reef so the Folks there can see this. Thats where I spend the majority of my time and I think all the people there would like to see this.


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 04:25 PM   #129
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Let me think about that. On one hand, I'm not comfortable posting in Nano Reefs, since this isn't a nano tank. On the other, maybe I could post a link to it. I'll take a look at the nano forum and see if it looks kosher.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 04:44 PM   #130
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
The Nano Reef forum has a section specifically for large tanks, such as yours. I am sure they would be delighted to have your tank. They also have a section just for Biotopes, and there have been large tanks posted there in the past as well. I have to agree with Dr Brain Coral- they would be delighted to have a thread for your tank there. Generally speaking, I think the Nano Reef crowd is a little more enthusiastic about biotopes. Especially if you include lots of pictures!


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 05:22 PM   #131
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Is there an easy way to copy and paste a thread elsewhere?


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 05:24 PM   #132
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
We have lots of large tanks over on Nano Reef. If you make and account you can make a thread and post a link from there


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 06:07 PM   #133
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Thanks, Dr.Brain Coral and JLynn, for your encouragement. I went ahead and posted links to this thread, as well as my DIY threads. Maybe we'll get some more bodies to the party!


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 07:06 PM   #134
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
where did you post the links?


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 07:35 PM   #135
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Just in the Nano Tank forum. I didn't see any different sections.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 07:41 PM   #136
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Oh haha I meant the Forum Nano Reef.com.


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/2014, 08:41 PM   #137
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
D'oh!


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/12/2014, 10:43 AM   #138
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Ill post a link for you if that's all right with you


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/12/2014, 10:49 AM   #139
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
OK, thanks. As long as it's cool to post a link to another forum…


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/12/2014, 01:51 PM   #140
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
I don't think Nano Reef has any rules about that- they are generally much less strictly moderated.


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/13/2014, 02:30 PM   #141
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Ok, here's a pic of the fake wall, including the overflow portion.


I still have some tightening up to do, but we're getting there!


Whoops! I meant to post this to my fake wall thread! I guess I'll do both…


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/13/2014, 03:20 PM   #142
Dr.Brain Coral
Registered Member
 
Dr.Brain Coral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Looks good


Dr.Brain Coral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/14/2014, 11:48 PM   #143
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
"I'd really love to approach having a tank full of life that fed itself and filtered itself. I drive it with energy, and nature takes it from there."

"So I may need to trim down my fish list a bit. I should prioritize them, according to their niche in the food web in my tank. What do they eat? At what level in the water column do they eat? It's a fascinating problem to solve. Every creature in the tank has to 'pull his weight' and do his part in maintaining the tank for me."

Those are a couple of thoughts I expressed earlier that I'd like to explore a little more.

The ideal of the self-sustaining aquarium is very interesting. To harness natural processes to approach sustainability is a guiding principal for me. I hope to apply low-tech methods to encourage nature reach a beautiful equilibrium in my display.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/15/2014, 06:31 AM   #144
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
I agree about aiming for more self-sustaining aquariums. However, the larger the tank is, the less possible it is to create a truly self-sustaining ecosystem. Maybe someday we will know enough about the ecology of the oceans and our tanks to create larger self-sustaining ecosystems, but for now, a reef-in-a-jar is about as good as it gets. I'm sure you know that already, of course.

About trimming down your fish list, what niche does each of those fish have? I am too lazy to look it up ATM, and based on prior experience, I am sure you have already done your research .


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/15/2014, 09:33 AM   #145
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
That's funny, you can tell you and I come from two different 'camps'. You have a more 'nano tank' point of view, and I'm from the 'bigger the better' side. I would have said,"the larger the tank, MORE possible it is to create a self-sustaining ecosystem." For example, I could probably fill my 240 with enough micro and macro algae to support one herbivorous fish. So I could build a self-sustaining tank, but it would not be very interesting as a display. But I couldn't do that with a small tank. It couldn't grow enough algae to support a herbivorous fish. It would consume quicker than algae could regrow.

I'd like to hear more about a reef in a jar. How does smaller make it MORE possible?

As for my fish (consumers) list:

Chromis, Royal Gramma, Chalk Bass, Swiss Guard Basslet, Neon Goby, Silversides - Planktivores
Blennie, Cherub Angel, Blue Tang, Molly, Snails - Herbivores/Detrivores
Lookdown - Carnivore (small fish & crustaceans)
Shrimps and crabs - Omnivores
Rock Beauty - spongovore, detrivore, herbivore
Sponges, Sea squirt, Scallop, gorgonia, anemone, zooplankton - planktivores, bacteriovores

Producers:
Manatee Grass, Chaeto, Ulva, various red Macro Algae, microalgae, Phytoplankton, diatoms, cyanobacteria

Clearly, I've got more planktivores than my tank could sustainably feed, even with a refugium. So either I drastically reduce their numbers or I feed them. Some of my herbivores can sustain themselves with what's produced in the tank. But the larger ones like the Blue Tang will likely need feeding. I'll need to feed the Lookdowns as well, if I don't want them to eat any of the smaller fish. The tricky part will be closing the circle with all the bacteria and detrivores, that recycle fish waste, uneaten food, etc. to feed the plants. But the size of my tank will limit what can be recycled, so I'll have to export excess pollutants with water changes, macro algae pruning and removal of excess seagrass.

So, I don't expect my tank to be completely self-sustaining, but I will aim to get as close to it as is reasonably possible. And this will make it easier on me to maintain it.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/15/2014, 03:44 PM   #146
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
That's funny, you can tell you and I come from two different 'camps'. You have a more 'nano tank' point of view, and I'm from the 'bigger the better' side. I would have said,"the larger the tank, MORE possible it is to create a self-sustaining ecosystem." For example, I could probably fill my 240 with enough micro and macro algae to support one herbivorous fish. So I could build a self-sustaining tank, but it would not be very interesting as a display. But I couldn't do that with a small tank. It couldn't grow enough algae to support a herbivorous fish. It would consume quicker than algae could regrow.

I'd like to hear more about a reef in a jar. How does smaller make it MORE possible?
Take a look at the 2008 Advanced Aquarist article, "Micro-Ecosystems." I think you would enjoy it. The reason I say that smaller is better is that the bigger the ecosystem (and, particularly, the size and complexity of the organisms within it), the more difficult it is to balance all the environmental factors. Though I should probably specify that when I say ecosystem I mean in the food-web sense, rather than the geographical sense. In other words, I would consider a 100g tank full of plankton to be a "small" ecosystem in this context, and a 10g tank with a clownfish and some corals to be a "large" ecosystem.

Of course, in a large tank, it may be possible to create a simple ecosystem with a more complex animal. But consider it from the perspective of keeping relatively simple organisms (like in those Ecospheres you can buy) such as invertebrates, algae, bacteria, and plankton. It is much easier to set up a small ecosystem (<=1g) and balance the ecological factors on a minor scale than it would be to try and balance, say, a 50g full of invertebrates, algae, bacteria, and plankton. On a small scale, calculations are much simpler, and the general ecology (growth rates, reproduction rates, death rates, predation rates, etc) is far simpler to predict; even though these are exponential functions, if you only have, say, 2 shrimp in a small ecosystem, these rates are going to be a lot more linear, and thus easier to analyze, predict, manipulate, and calculate. On a large scale, calculations are much more complicated because these are exponential functions, and higher magnitudes are more difficult to predict, analyze, manipulate, etc.

About the reef-in-a-jar, it has come to my attention that the "Reefbowl" I was originally referring to is not actually a closed, self-sustaining ecosystem. That said, it is an awesome example of an unbelievable microecosystem. However, another example would be the PJ Reefs jar. Also, there are several different examples in the article I mentioned in the first sentence.


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/15/2014, 10:49 PM   #147
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
I see what you mean with smaller being easier. With fewer organisms it's simpler to balance environmental factors.

It's funny, I haven't really ever looked at this hobby from the 'smaller is better' point of view. It's refreshing!

Conversely, from my point of view, having more diversity makes my job simpler. I let the multitudes balance environmental factors for me. More complex systems cans adapt to changes more easily and 'act' more like the natural ecosystems we are trying to recreate with our aquariums.

I guess in the end, small and large tanks are really the same. It's just a matter of scale and complexity. Just depends on what you're going for.


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/16/2014, 06:13 AM   #148
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
Yep.

Hey, about the sponges- are you going to limit yourself to Caribbean sponges (which won't be easy, considering how easily and often they are mistakenly identified)? Because if not, Reef Gen has this gorgeous purple photosynthetic sponge on DD right now. It is labelled "Collospongia sp."- whether because it is undescribed or because they did not want to go through the trouble of IDing the species I don't know- which, according to the internet, is a genus found only in Australia. So if you are not going for Caribbean sponges, it looks like it would be a great choice, and you could have your LFS order it from ReefGen when the tank is ready.


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/16/2014, 05:49 PM   #149
Michael Hoaster
Registered Member
 
Michael Hoaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,574
Yes, I plan to use Caribbean species only, including sponges. After all, the Caribbean is known for its sponges. I will purchase from Caribbean collectors, so I'm confident I'll get Caribbean sponges.

I was curious to see that sponge though! I went to Reef Gen's website and saw no sponges. You said it was on 'DD' right now. What does DD mean?

Like I said before, I had a photosynthetic blue sponge in my old reef tank, and it was gorgeous. It did really well too! In my experience, photosynthetic sponges are easier to keep than non-photosynthetic, since they can feed themselves, sort of, and they don't get covered in algae. I'm still researching, but I haven't come across any beautiful, photosynthetic, Caribbean sponges yet. My favorite Caribbean sponge is the Purple Tube Sponge. I won't try one until the tank matures, and I'm confident of having favorable conditions for it.

Hopefully, I can set up my lighting to accommodate non-photosynthetics. I think on and around my fake mangrove root will be the best location to place them, since I plan to put less light on that area. I hope to place some on the fake mud bank as well, if I can find suitable locations.

Right now I'm just trying to get the fake mud bank done, so I can move on to plumbing and lighting. THEN, I can add substrate, water, plankton and SEAGRASS!


__________________
As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Lagoon in the works
Michael Hoaster is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09/17/2014, 07:08 AM   #150
JLynn
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Yes, I plan to use Caribbean species only, including sponges. After all, the Caribbean is known for its sponges. I will purchase from Caribbean collectors, so I'm confident I'll get Caribbean sponges.

I was curious to see that sponge though! I went to Reef Gen's website and saw no sponges. You said it was on 'DD' right now. What does DD mean?

Like I said before, I had a photosynthetic blue sponge in my old reef tank, and it was gorgeous. It did really well too! In my experience, photosynthetic sponges are easier to keep than non-photosynthetic, since they can feed themselves, sort of, and they don't get covered in algae. I'm still researching, but I haven't come across any beautiful, photosynthetic, Caribbean sponges yet. My favorite Caribbean sponge is the Purple Tube Sponge. I won't try one until the tank matures, and I'm confident of having favorable conditions for it.

Hopefully, I can set up my lighting to accommodate non-photosynthetics. I think on and around my fake mangrove root will be the best location to place them, since I plan to put less light on that area. I hope to place some on the fake mud bank as well, if I can find suitable locations.

Right now I'm just trying to get the fake mud bank done, so I can move on to plumbing and lighting. THEN, I can add substrate, water, plankton and SEAGRASS!
DD is short for Diver's Den (Live Aquaria's WYSIWYG section).

Tube sponges are very nice, but my personal favorite Caribbean sponge is probably Mycale laxissima.

One way to accommodate NPS in a tank like yours would be to use something like Kessil's fixtures for the lighting; they are aim-able. You could have one or two just pointing straight down over the seagrass, and then a third over the mangrove part pointing at an angle over to the seagrass/macro algae area. That way the mangrove roots would be in shadow, and it would even look like the light was filtering in through the imaginary canopy of the non-existent forest.

If you wanted to get really fancy with that you could even add something to make leafy-looking shadows to project into part of the tank. Tissue paper might be a good choice for that- it would create light shadows without blocking the light entirely. If you did that, you could have the third light pointing straight down and have the "leaf" shadows shade the mangrove roots from the "sunlight".


JLynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
biotope, caribbean, food chain detrivores, macro algae, seagrass

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:37 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2018 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.