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Unread 08/30/2008, 04:55 PM   #251
SantaMonica
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Michael: You already have spores of algae in your tank right now as you read this, including green hair, green slime, and red/brown turf algae. But without enough light (and in the case of turf, flow and air), they will not grow. Algae grows first where it has the most light. That's the first part of how a screen works: It's just more light, out of the tank. The second part of a screen's operation is the turbulent flow across the screen; this brings many more nutrients in contact with the screen than just regular tank flow does. Lastly, if you are doing a vertical screen with a pump, and you put a wavemaker timer on the pump (on, off, on, off), then the "off" time will simulate the time between real waves in the ocean, which breaks up the "boundary layer" around the algae. This boundary layer slows down the passage of nutrients from the water to the algae. This last step (pulsing the water) is very important if you are going to want the true stiff red/brown turf algae, since real turf lives out-of-the-water (on rocks, pylons, etc).

Herring: Yes I was almost going to use 100W halides, but found a nice small 2-bulb 24" T5HO unit from Current. Most important was that it was thin, 1.5", since it will be on both sides of the acrylic. Looks like final measurements will be about 6" high, 6" deep, and 24" wide.


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Unread 08/30/2008, 06:51 PM   #252
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Quote:
In a classic case of "not doing research", some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"
Quote:
ABSTRACT
Declines in coral cover are generally associated with increases in the abundance of fleshy algae. In many cases, it remains unclear whether algae are responsible, directly or indirectly, for coral death or whether they simply settle on dead coral surfaces. Here, we show that algae can indirectly cause coral mortality by enhancing microbial activity via the release of dissolved compounds. When coral and algae were placed in chambers together but separated by a 0.02 ìm filter, corals suffered 100% mortality. With the addition of the broad-spectrum antibiotic ampicillin, mortality was completely prevented. Physiological measurements showed complementary patterns of increasing coral stress with proximity to algae. Our results suggest that as human impacts increase and algae become more abundant on reefs a positive feedback loop may be created whereby compounds released by algae enhance microbial activity on live coral surfaces causing mortality of corals and further algal growth.

Quote:
corals died when placed adjacent to macroalgae, even when separated by a 0.02 µm membrane that was impermeable to viruses and microbes, but not dissolved compounds like DOC. The algae increased microbial growth on the coral, which in turn caused hypoxia and presumably the coral mortality. Coral mortality did not occur in this experiment when antibiotics were added [77]. These results suggest that algal-derived DOC may be a primary driver of coral-microbial interactions. In addition, algae-associated microbial communities harbor pathogens that cause coral disease [78].


Who watched it and who didn't ??

This HELPS the turf scene ????


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Unread 08/30/2008, 08:10 PM   #253
SantaMonica
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I wasn't pointing to or speaking of that. I was speaking of this:

http://www.marine.usf.edu/videos/2007-01-26.wmv

23:30 "Bulk DOC does not correlate with coral decline; higher DOC areas have healthier corals; lower DOC areas have weaker corals. The opposite of what we predicted".

24:40 "The DOC to DIN ratio's are higher on healthy reefs, and lower on less-healthy reefs".

25:45 "Microbial numbers are elevated with a lower DOC to DIN ratio" (!)

34:00 "Christmas Island, with the really low DOC, has the highest pathogens, while Kingman Island, with the highest DOC, has the lowest pathogens."

37:00 "On Kingman Island you have high hard-coral coverage and the lowest disease [and highest DOC]. That's weird! What you should find is that as hard-coral coverage reduces, it should be harder for the pathogens to find hosts, so you should see a pathogen decrease. But we're not seeing that, which means there is something else going on."

49:20 "The DOC definitely always goes down, in the really bad coral areas".

52:39 "You can actually put the corals where the nutrients are really high, and the corals are not dying; in some cases they tend to grow better, which is also true in our [???].


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Unread 08/31/2008, 01:10 AM   #254
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Here's a rather ingenious screen-in-a-trashcan that someone just built. This type of design will eliminate evaporation (and cooling), if that's what you want. One thing I might change would be the distance of the bulb to the screen; it should be so close that it almost touches it. In all the builds I've seen so far, the ones that have slow growth always have the bulb too far away, or too small a wattage.




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Unread 09/01/2008, 09:47 PM   #255
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Here is an example of a screen that I wish were done better. He's using the skimmer output and dropping it right down on the screen at an angle, so that most of it goes through the screen. I'd rather see the water spread out across the screen. Also, the light is too far away. Thus, he got very little growth in the first seven days:




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Unread 09/02/2008, 06:28 AM   #256
CaptiveReef
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Post Turf Algae Filter

Thanks, good to hear back from you. Feel free to add anything to the thread if you want, too.

Bryan




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CaptiveReef wrote on 09/01/2008 07:00 PM:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SantaMonica wrote on 08/02/2008 05:30 AM:
Hi,

I was reading an older post of yours about skimmerless filtering. Could take a look at a turf filter post I made, and post your comments on it if you care to? It is here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...76#post12931276

Regards,
Bryan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hello Bryan,
I went to the begining of this thread and looked at the design pics as well as the actual working prototype pics. It is a great design! you are getting more light than a horizontal turf unit, as well as more contact area.
If you are going skimmerless then use a good carbon with water changes, to maintain clear water. Algae filters do work, but they will in time yellow the water.
These days everybody is using algae filters,(Eco-Systems) Refugiums, but they are using protein skimmers with them. I find Turf, (algae filters) are excellent for removing Phosphates, but not effective in removing proteins, fish waste, and most important Terpens, ( which is the corals chemical defense). I just helped one of my friends who has 180 gal reef with SPS, LPS, Leathers, he is using a refugium/Eco-System filter with a skimmer. He didn't notice the skimmer's 2 venturi's clog up and stop working. He lost about $500.00 in corals, the water quality went out the window. The Algae filter could not handle the Terpen buildup in the tank, 1st to go were the SPS, LPS, the leathers were able to handle the nutrient rich water conditions.
SPS corals are found in fast moving water with very little nutrient levels due to strong currents.
Your design is excellent, use it with a protein skimmer and reef carbon, and you will have an efficient complete filter.

Thanks, Greg CaptiveReef



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Unread 09/02/2008, 08:54 AM   #257
SantaMonica
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Good to have accounts from both sides. I've never used the Eco System mud before, nor researched it, so I can't really comment on how the mud might have affected the corals. But maybe the sudden change in water conditions shocked the corals.


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Unread 09/02/2008, 11:19 AM   #258
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For sloped growing surfaces, you can use the backside of fired ceramic tile or sanded acrylic for a growing surface. The water will spread out and flow over the surface rather than through it. If you insist on using the unnecessary (IMO/IME) screen, put the screen over a sheet of acrylic. Turfs attach to even the slickest surfaces. The thing is you don't want to completely remove the algae when you scrape, so glass or slick plastic is not appropriate. A porous (the backside of a fired tile) or rough (sanded acrylic) surface allows tiny remnants of the algae to not be scrapped away.


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Unread 09/02/2008, 01:15 PM   #259
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Santa monica, do you know if anyone is looking at optimal submerged/aerated timesfor turf algae? I'm confused if having it submerged all the time or the timed spraybar is better. Any data in this regard?


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Unread 09/02/2008, 01:59 PM   #260
SantaMonica
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Rick, the only data I know of is Adey patent, which recommends (I believe) a minimum of 8 seconds. I however have been playing around with the wave timer, from 15 to 120 seconds, and I don't see a difference in growth. I keep it now at 30 seconds; seems to be enough time for the algae to rid most of the water.


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Unread 09/02/2008, 07:33 PM   #261
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Today I thought I'd show what's up with my screen. I'm back to using just my main original bucket (that started with pre-grown screen), since the 2nd bucket that I used for the build thread is on loan to the lfs. I'll be posting progress pics of that soon. But for my tank/screen, N and P are zero of course. I check every day unless I forget. The main development has been true green turf, i.e, not green hair or slime. Now, hair and slime are always there (they grow right over everything else), but I started noticing that after regular cleanings there were still some green remaining. I thought I was just rushing and missing it, but it got to be too much green. So on the next cleaning I used the camera, and when cleaning I found for the first time true green turf. I also let it grow more than I normally would, so the pics would show more:

Here is the screen just before cleaning, looking down into the bucket (both sides looked about the same).


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scre...ng08-27-08.jpg


Here is the screen pulled out (still not cleaned):


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scre...ed08-27-08.jpg


Here is the screen after a regular cleaning (scrubbing) with fingernails and toothbrush. Note that tons of green remains:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scre...ng08-27-08.jpg


Here is the screen after scraping with a razor blade:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scre...ng08-27-08.jpg


Note how most of the green turf is on the top half of the screen, near the lights. The flow is the same; only the light is stronger near the top (the very top is only one inch from the lights). It had been exactly on one month since I'd used a razor before this. It took that long for the real turf to grow (both red/brown and green). Real turf takes so long because it is very tightly packed and strong, with very little water. It looks like the green turf grows a bit faster than the red/brown, however, and is not quite as strong; it grows longer too. However I still could not scrub it off with my fingernails or a toothbrush, no matter how hard I tried. Only the razor could get it off. Took about 5 minutes; not bad for a month of growing.

Anyways, intrigued by this green turf, I went down to the beach with a camera so I could search for what I've been wanting for a while: Pics of how real turf lives. Sure enough I found it on the pylings of the pier at Paradise Cove (just north of Malibu):


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/TurfBeach.jpg


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/TurfBeachCloseup.jpg


It's exacty what was on my screen. The white specs you see are sand. In order to get the second (closup) pic, I had to pinch the turf very hard and pull it out... like pulling out plant roots; then I held it up for the pic. Note also that it's low tide, which means that the turf holds its color and stays alive for many hours in direct sunlight with no water. Further down the beach I found the same turf on rocks that were 100 feet away from the water.

So, like I said before, real turf is used to living out of the water, and that's why I say that to simulate this (as Aday's machine does) you need some type of on-off-on pulsed flow, and the easiest way I could think to do this was a wavemaker timer (although, as I'll post soon, other folks are coming up with ingenious ways too.)

And again, the importance of light is clearly apparent with this green turf, since it grew no more that 6" away from the lights at the top. And lastly, it does look like some of the red/brown is being replaced by the green, which makes sense since the original red/brown came from IA with their different nutrients and lighting.


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Unread 09/03/2008, 01:47 PM   #262
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What does everyone think about this?...





I'm going to have this built, so I can get all my filtering off of my sink/counter, and into my stand. It will set on the sump, and be fed either by the overflow, or by a pump. There will be a drain hose going from the drain hole down to the waterline so it drains quietly. The sides where the lights are attached will be clear, but all other sides will be mirror acrylic (with the mirror facing inwards). This will get more light onto the screen. Also, the part of the clear side panels that are not covered by the light will be painted or covered with something to keep light from getting out. This should keep most of the light inside so it does not light up the whole room or stand. This lighting setup will have over three times the power (8000 lumens) compared to my demo bucket (2500 lumens), and all the light will be 1.5" from the screen. Here are the lights:

http://www.petstore.com/ps_viewItem-...24-&tab-4.html

The lights are 1.5" thick each, which will add 3" to the depth, making the total depth 6"


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Unread 09/03/2008, 07:56 PM   #263
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Hope the space under your tank isn't too confined. the less convenient it is to reach the screen the more likely the interval between cleanings will lengthen. I would be very concerned about the sides becoming covered with growth. On my ecowheel, with light directly overhead, the amount of algae growth is pretty robust on the sides of the acyrlic at the waterline. I predict you'll eventually have more algae on the sides than you will on the screen. If there are any submerged sections I would also think you would end up with coraline algae covering the bottom sections.

I would suggest lighting from above, even if it means less light.

Also, I would dump the screen and switch to a piece of 1/4" pvc sheet that will last forever. You can take some sandpaper if you want to rough up the surface to give the algae a better foot but it's really not necessary based on my experience. In fact, if you put the light above, you could use perhaps 3 sheets instead of one if you can figure how to distribute water evenly over all the sheets and not block lighting too much.


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Unread 09/03/2008, 09:01 PM   #264
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Good points. Will consider them on the next version (I just ordered this one)


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Unread 09/03/2008, 10:11 PM   #265
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Reader Hits Zero!

'Gone Postal' who is on the RS site, becomes the first homebuilt screen user to reach zero nitrate. No pics from him yet, but he says, "My trates hit 0 for the first time in the 5 months that my tank has been up. The lowest i had ever gotten them to was 5. I built my setup [9 days ago]. I have some growth, but nothing too spectacular. The screen is completely covered in brown, but it seems as if it's just surface algae - not really hair algae, etc like I'd originally expected. Comes off really easy. If I just wipe my finger across, the screen is clear again."

And here's a second person below, with the build-of-the-day. He says "I am currently running this system, and I'm hoping to reduce my nitrates from a steady 20 down to zero. Here's my set up on the 2nd week. (water is supplied from the output of my UV filter)". Note that he drilled his pipe, instead of cutting a slot in it; he said he did not have a rotary cutting tool, and thus he had to make it only one-sided:






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Unread 09/04/2008, 09:44 AM   #266
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Santa Monica,

I have not read through all of the posts, so forgive me if this has already been stated, but I noticed that you said that you are scraping your screen once a month? This is not often enough. The turf algae can easily be overrun by less desirable and efficient macro algae if you let it go longer than a week. Additionally, you have to go through and kill the pods in the scrubber on a weekly basis or they will eat all of the turf algae. They will largely leave the macro alone and eat the turf. This adds to the problem of the macro overgrowing the turf.

I ran my scrubber for about a year, scraping it down about once a month, and saw very little benefit for my tank, other than massive pod growth. Once I started scraping it down every week or two weeks, my nitrates and phosphates have dropped dramatically. Also, what I found, after this all was pointed out to me, was that I had no turf algae left. I was growing lots of macro, but no turf. Now, I have little or no macro and only turf. I scrape the screen down with a sharp knife each time to where there is virtually no visible algae left on the screen. I do the scrape at every water change, which can be weekly or bi-weekly, depending on my mood. When I pull the screens out, I fill the scrubber with RO water while I scrape the screens, in order to kill the pods that eat the turf. I then empty the RO, replace the screens, and fire it back up.

p.s. The red and brown algae is macro. Green is good. Turf algae grows in long strands and is stringy. The macro grows in a mat and bubbles.


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Last edited by jglackin; 09/04/2008 at 09:57 AM.
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Unread 09/04/2008, 10:34 AM   #267
SantaMonica
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JG, correct, it was covered a few times previously, agreeing with what you covered. I break it down into weekly "cleanings" which just scrub loose stuff off the screen under tap water, and monthly "scrapings" with a razor blade under tap water. My red/brown, however, is stiff astroturf-like turf. And for green, I've now had three types: Green slime (washes right off), green hair (scrubs right off), and now green turf (only comes off with razor.)

Can you post pics of your scrubber?


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Unread 09/04/2008, 10:39 AM   #268
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Yeah, the red/brown grows in a mat, like astroturf. Do what you can to get rid of it.

I never use tap water on my screens. I am afraid that chlorine or something else in the tap water may kill off algae. When you scrape the screens, you are leaving only very small amounts of "seed" algae to grow back. Tap water may kill off some/much of the seed and hinder growing a healthy culture. I use RO in the scrubber and SW for the screens. Maybe not necessary, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.


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AE400
ACIII Pro
Turf Scrubber
LiterMeterIII
4 Nanostream 6055s
Tunze Wavebox
Tunze 6201
Current Tank Stats: Click on my homepage

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Unread 09/04/2008, 11:38 AM   #269
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I took an idea from the trashcan design and modified it a little. I added a surge device on the outside and I must say it works very well. I had to go through about 3 prototypes before I got it right but now it surges once every 30 seconds and is completely self regulating.


[IMG]http://i34.*******.com/wjfh90.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i33.*******.com/2qlww28.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i34.*******.com/23t4gew.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i35.*******.com/30c57x0.jpg[/IMG]
Full Bucket before surge

[IMG]http://i37.*******.com/11hxstv.jpg[/IMG]
Bucket after surge

[IMG]http://i35.*******.com/2j8x7b.jpg[/IMG]
During water surge

[IMG]http://i35.*******.com/14to6dz.jpg[/IMG]
After surge

This design is completely self regulating and is virtually silent. I set the water level in the trash can to where it will be high enough to not splash when the water travels down the screen.

[IMG]http://i33.*******.com/2hyz4g8.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i35.*******.com/35am8fr.jpg[/IMG]



I added an Aqua Lifter pump to help break the siphon. With lower water flow it didn't even need a pump but when I hooked everything up to my Rio 2100 pump I had to add the aqua lifter to add air to the siphon when the water level got low so that it would fully break the siphon. Without the Aqua Lifter the siphon would not fully break and so it would not surge. Instead it would just fill the bucket up until it reached a balance to where the water level stayed the same and just ran out in a continuous stream into the scrubber.

If the siphon opening were a little higher then I'm sure it would start to break the siphon earlier which would mean that I could probably not even need to use the Aqua Lifter...Meaning that this is a solid state, completely self regulating surge device. ))*


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Unread 09/04/2008, 11:39 AM   #270
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[IMG]http://i33.*******.com/30hncpd.jpg[/IMG]
Screen pops out for easy cleaning.

[IMG]http://i38.*******.com/ir3z7q.jpg[/IMG]


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Unread 09/04/2008, 11:40 AM   #271
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Self regulating surge device:

[IMG]http://i33.*******.com/2q2esd0.jpg[/IMG]

Parts list (all 3/4" PVC fittings):
  • 2 90 degree elbows
  • 1 slip coupling
  • 1 Tee with slip fittings and a threaded 1/2" opening
  • 1/2" barb fitting
  • Teflon Pipe Tape
  • 1 threaded male/female slip coupling
  • O-ring
  • 3/4" pipe cut into pieces to join fittings together

Basically you just glue all the parts together as shown... This device has two siphon breaks. It has the main one which is the open end of the J opposite of the threaded coupling and it has the threaded barb fitting... You attach two airline hoses and run them to an aqua lifter pump.

Here's how it works. As water fills the bucket it rises up to the top of the J and creates a siphon. The siphoning water quickly rushes out creating a surge effect. As the water level drops, the inlet on the aqua lifter pump starts to suck air. Water continues to drop until the siphon breaks at the main PVC opening. Air from the aqua lifter then reaches the barb fitting and squirts just enough air into the tube to finish fully breaking the siphon. Once the siphon is fully broken, water then starts to fill the bucket again. As it rises it covers the inlet hose of the aqua lifter and causes it to start squirting water through the barb fitting. Water rises up until its high enough to start a siphon again...

There are two adjustments to get it to work. One is the amount of water entering the bucket. I have a ball valve on the outlet of the main pump which feeds the whole scrubber. You don't want to have so much water entering the bucket that the siphon can't keep up. Also, the more water flow you have, the shorter the surges. I like to keep about 30 seconds between surges and so I adjusted the water flow accordingly.

Next you can adjust the height of the airline tubing which is strapped with the wire tie. This sets the level to where the aqua lifter starts to suck air. You don't want the airline to be too high or else the aqua lifter will suck air too soon and break the siphon before the surge has finished. If you have the airline too low then it won't suck enough air and won't break the siphon fully. If the siphon does not break fully then the water level will rise in the bucket and find a balance to where the siphon equals the water coming in... This means that the bucket will just sit there at the same water level and never surge.

If you wanted to use more water flow then you can use a taller bucket and larger diameter tubing. Everything I used was 3/4" and it was more than enough to keep up with the Rio 2100 pump I'm using.

When I tested it in the sink I didn't even need the aqua lifter pump. I used little water flow and it surged itself with no moving parts. The Rio pump puts out a lot more water flow and so I had to add the aqua lifter pump so that the siphon could break properly. What was happening was the barb fitting didn't stay out of the water long enough to draw enough air to break the siphon. If you put the barb fitting a little higher you may be able to use higher water flows without having to use an aqua lifter pump.


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Unread 09/04/2008, 11:41 AM   #272
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I started playing with the surge device some more and it will run without a pump if you offset the two siphon breaks more. By placing a piece of PVC in the main opening you increase the distance between the main siphon break and the barb fitting. This allows the barb fitting to start drawing air sooner which means that it will fully break the siphon and create the surge you are looking for.

[IMG]http://i33.*******.com/23k7koy.jpg[/IMG]

Now it's a solid-state, self regulating surge device.


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Unread 09/04/2008, 09:09 PM   #273
2_zoa
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Rngrdave,


Please excuse the interruption but.......I am concerned about the electrical here. One is the electrical components in an enclosed container with salty water ( Very good conductor ) and i think i see exposed wires ? Other than that I think that your idea is great. I like the surge system from what i have read that is what the algae want a surge of water and then a surge of air.

I don't know if this was discussed earlier I was to lazy to read the whole thread.


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Unread 09/04/2008, 09:34 PM   #274
jglackin
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My thoughts on the electrical, exactly. This is a house fire waiting to happen.

What about cutting the side away and attaching clear plexiglass and mounting strip light on the side? More lighting on the algae and safe from electrical issues.

My TS does not surge. It is a constant stream of water running over baffles that sit on the screens. I grow large amounts of turf algae with no issues. It's always good to experiment and try different variations, but I am certain that the drip method that this scrubber has is sufficient without adding the complexity of a surge. Just my opinion.


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Unread 09/04/2008, 09:39 PM   #275
servicky
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this is a big thread i was wondering i have a one month old tank that it being takin over by greeen alge. is this the soulution for any alge in my tank or should i set up the fuge on my sump??? any ideas thank you


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