Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

Good to meet a fellow 'species'. And don't forget we're also 'cheapass aquariasts' too! One other species characteristic I have is a love of 'low tech' solutions, or as I like to call them, 'elegant solutions'.

I do have a 'side sump', with the partitioned left end of my tank. It's not a refugium, but it gives me room for heaters, etc. And again, given my display will have refuges built in, I think I can do without a separate vessel, which for me, is less work/worry.

So, the question is whether this 'solution' is beneficial for my tank, as well as beneficial for me. No additional plumbing, lighting or pumps-that's all good for me. Maintenance should be very easy. Remove Chaeto right from the top of the tank, shake out pods, and bag it for store credit. I think that's about it!

I'd love to hear thoughts on the functionality (or lack thereof) of this 'coast to coast overflow conversion to a built in refugium' idea. Looks good for me. Is it good for my tank?

[JLynn]

One thing you might not have considered is that, this way, the chaeto and ulva will get MUCH less flow, which would (theoretically) greatly decrease their capacity to remove nutrients. In turn, that would decrease their growth, which would decrease your potential profits.

Also, when you keep it AIO, you make it more difficult for yourself if, in the future, one or more of your fish starts to bully the others/is a victim of mass bullying. If you have a separate refugium, then in that situation, you can easily separate out the problem fish or victim fish by putting them in the refugium until you can either sell them or set up a separate tank for them.

External refugiums have another use, too: you can easily put your trimmings from the DT in them and propagate your (display quality) macro algae to sell online.

Lastly, consider the plankton. The overflow for your tank may be large, but it is small compared to the size of the external refugium. I don't know how large you were planning on making that refugium, but I suspect it is at least 10g larger than the overflow, and probably a whole lot more. This decrease in volume means that the amount of plankton you can potentially produce is exponentially decreased! And while you might consider it a benefit to have plankton picked off through predation with no effort on your part, it makes it more difficult to know how much your fish have been eating and whether or not they have been eating at all. Not only that, but it makes it much easier to over and underfeed your fish with store-bought foods. Underfeeding is bad for obvious reasons, and overfeeding just might be worse, because that can easily wreak havoc on your water chemistry and potentially cause an algae bloom or, at its most drastic, crash your system.

...Oh, and it means you will lose flow in your DT, because that is one less pump. I imagine you have your pumping scheme all figured out, and having to change it to compensate for the loss of flow could be a headache-inducing problem. So, for the above reasons (and probably some others that I haven't thought of yet), I suggest that you don't scrap the external 'fuge.

On a different note, I was just watching Jamie Cragg's MACNA talk, and he mentioned that they use yeast to feed their bacteria, which I thought you might be interested to know. And if you haven't already watched the recording of his speech, I highly suggest you do so ASAP! It is a really fantastic presentation, and it was so interesting to learn more about the work they are doing at Project Coral.

[Michael Hoaster]

All good points. Thanks, JLynn. Let me address each. But first let me say, I'm not arguing which method is better. I am 'exploring' the idea that given my tank (already a large refugium), what are the pros and cons of this reduced refugium idea.

On the reduced flow; yes it will be less, but not as much as you'd think. I have raised my water level up to the height needed to try it. The powerhead in the fake root 'blows' water down the length of the overflow, including inside it, so there will be some flow. Also, the purpose of this refugium is more for pod production than nutrient uptake (my DT will do that), so if Chaeto production is low, that's just less work for me.

I don't know what AIO means, but I do plan to have a quarantine tank running continuously.

I never had trouble without a refugium for my fresh water planted tank's excess plants, which was extremely productive. I'd prune, throw 'em in a bucket, and head to the fish store. Or I'd simply compost them. But it would be a plus, for sure. I guess I could use the quarantine tank for that.

I agree plankton production will be decreased. But I see no difference between my knowledge of how much is fed to the tank with either method. And I don't expect either method would produce so much food as to pollute my tank. I think of it as 'snacks' for the fish, between my 'manual' feedings.

Water flow will not be reduced in the DT. Increased actually. I was planning to use my canister filter as my pump for it (an external refugium), but now it'll just stay exactly as it is, for CO2 injection, different media, and additional flow. I'm sure I will have to throttle down my Reeflow pump, once I am able to turn it on. No plumbing scheme changes will be necessary.

Where might I find this MACNA presentation?

So, now that we've discussed the differences between the two 'methods', can we now just talk about this 'built in' idea?

[Michael Hoaster]

More thoughts on the built in refugium:

One thing I realized is, if I try it and it doesn't work, no biggee. I can just go back to my original plan, and go external. So why not give it a try?

Probably the biggest limitation is the size. It's about 5 feet wide by an inch and a quarter deep, by five inches high. Not much space. I'll probably put about an inch of substrate in the bottom too. In my favor, the plants won't need to be confined to it. They can creep out into the display, which I think will look cool. I think the plants I've chosen (chaeto and ulva) will be okay with it. Will it provide a suitable place for pods to eat and procreate? Pods are tiny, so there should be enough room for them. Will there be enough food? I presume it will be encrusted with microalgae, plus pods love ulva. And that close to the light, it may even grow phytoplankton!

A fish could get in there, and I might never know. That's why I built it with clear end panels, so I could see down the length of it. But now it's covered in foam. I could make a window, but the plants inside will block the view anyway. So, some visual inspection will be needed, from above, and taking fish counts occasionally will help.

I guess the first thing I should do is put some plants in there and see how they do. If they thrive, it's on to step two. If they die, it's back to the original plan. Seeing them in place will also help me to visualize other possibilities I haven't thought of.

[Michael Hoaster]

Another thought, and this one's kind of big. If the pods can come and go as they please, what's to keep them in there at all?

Would plentiful food do it? Would they feel protected/refuged in there? Can they find their way back if they leave? I think if I can provide them with proper conditions for them to flourish, it will work. If not, I've just added more pods to my tank…

[Michael Hoaster]

This one is blurry, but you can make out the bright green new growth on the caulerpa racemosa.


Given the newness of the tank, I'll take it as a good sign.

[Michael Hoaster]

Three things to note in this one.


Diatoms on the sand and rock, new growth in the seagrass indicated by bright green lower blades, and the chaeto balls are growing, or at least expanding.

Also, I think I found a hitch hiker. It's a small wormlike creature on a seagrass blade. Looks kind of spikey/warty. If I had to guess, I'd call it a baby sea cucumber! If I can find it again I'll try to get a pic.

[JLynn]

AIO is short for all-in-one tank. Typically this refers to tanks like Innovative Marine Nuvo or Fluval Spec, but I figured it was appropriate here, as well.

You can find the talk on ************ or on... I think it is Bulk Reef Supply's youtube channel. I have been watching them as ************ puts them up, so I'm not sure about where to find it directly on youtube. Basically, this year's MACNA talks were all filmed and Bulk Reef Supply (?) has been posting them in groups of three every week. ************ has been posting them as well. All of them have been pretty great, but Jamie Cragg's one is my favorite so far. He is one of the people working on propagating corals via sexual reproduction, and they are the first people to date to purposefully induce a spawning in a coral. That was achieved last year, and this year will mark their second set of successful spawnings. It is all breaking-edge stuff, and it is so exciting! From the looks of it, it is something a dedicated aquarist could do at home. Maybe someday soon we will be trading captive bred corals!

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Another thought, and this one's kind of big. If the pods can come and go as they please, what's to keep them in there at all?

Would plentiful food do it? Would they feel protected/refuged in there? Can they find their way back if they leave? I think if I can provide them with proper conditions for them to flourish, it will work. If not, I've just added more pods to my tank…

I hadn't thought of that. And you know, I don't know that anything would keep them there... Copepods are not particularly smart (understandable, given the size of their brains), and I don't know if they are capable of remembering things like where food is, much less where safety is. To the best of my knowledge, unless food or danger is in their immediate vicinity, they don't really notice it (and sometimes not even then). Amphipods are a somewhat different matter; they instinctively head for shelter, as they are not pelagic creatures. Copepods are both pelagic and benthic, so they can head for shelter, but I don't know if they would remember to go back to a refugium. I think they would probably just head for the nearest shady/sheltered spot, which may or may not actually be safe.

[karimwassef]

In my experience, there is little you can do in an open flow system (no nets or filter bags) to contain pods. They go where the flow goes. The largest populations are in mesh structures that protect them from the movement of the water and traps food for them (Chaeto, open sponges, etc...).

Experinentation is great, but if the ratio of DT to control environment (sump/refugium) is very large, your control will likely be limited. My DT to sump was ~ 2 (380:180). It was frustrating to do simple things like water changes. For this and other reasons, I added an 80 gallons aux sump bringing my ratio to 1.5 which is manageable. The ideal IMHO is still 1.

Foolproof is 2... But wow. It could hold everything in the DT in case of a disaster and allow an orderly recovery. Of course, that begs the question of which is the DT?

[sam.basye]

Tank is looking great!

How is the foam holding up and I'm interested to know if it has changed color or not - other than diatoms or algae.

Is is completely covered in the resin? Are there any parts of the wall that are exposed to air above the water line? - color difference?

-Sam

[Michael Hoaster]

More pics comin' at ya!


I have never enjoyed the end view of my tank so much as I do right now!


Love it!


Another end view.


Sculpture by Mother Nature.


Got some barnacles today. Might try a group of Banacle Blennies.


A nice addition I think. More color, more tiny apartments…


Here's an overall view of the reds. Yes, I moved some again!

[Michael Hoaster]

"Tank is looking great!

How is the foam holding up and I'm interested to know if it has changed color or not - other than diatoms or algae.

Is is completely covered in the resin? Are there any parts of the wall that are exposed to air above the water line? - color difference?" - Sam.basye

Thanks, Sam!

The foam is holding up well, I think. No movement since install. On a sandier area under the light it's getting some diatoms. The foam itself hasn't changed color.

I brushed the resin on quickly and loosely, not completely. Some of the top edge of the overflow foam gets some air exposure. No color change noted so far.

The fake mud bank is doing alright, providing a natural looking backdrop for my tank. The gaps where the pieces come together were annoying, but they provide easy attachment points for macros, so they'll be disguised soon enough. As long it doesn't try to float away I'm good.

Two things I look forward to:
The wall getting encrusted with a variety of life.
Getting all those fish caves filled with Royal Grammas!

[karimwassef]

Great addition with the pink barnacles

[JLynn]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Two things I look forward to:
The wall getting encrusted with a variety of life.
Getting all those fish caves filled with Royal Grammas!

Roger that!

Barnacle blennies would be very nice additions.

And you really have got to stop moving your red macros around!

[Michael Hoaster]

I think I've really stopped. I believe I've found the best arrangement-for me and for them!

I haven't been able to find the light requirements of each species. I haven't even been able to identify each species! I got a red macro sampler pack, so I got the luck of the draw. In my research, it appeared that most reds, in general, prefer medium to low light, with some exceptions. So I've been rotating them through the mangrove root to see where they are most happy.

[sam.basye]

Thanks for the update...I'm going to continue asking about the color of the wall over the next couple weeks :P

Once I'm less busy I'm going to look at my foam wall project again lol

I found an old barnacle under the sink that looks just like yours I'm going to cut up and foam to the wall to house either a bicolor or a tailspot blenny.

Make sure to blow out them caves so stuff doesn't settle in there. Want those grammas to use them!

-Sam

[Michael Hoaster]

OK, Sam, I'll keep an eye on the foam color. What is you concern about that?

I did a turkey baster test to see if there was any trapped air or detritus - all clear! I don't imagine they'd get very dirty, since they're kind of out-of-the-way. I expect once the fish move in, they'll keep it tidy.

[Michael Hoaster]

So, back to my built-in refugium idea.

I've finally found an online vender that had ulva in stock, but apparently I got the last one. Seems odd that everybody is out of this easy to grow macro!

I've decided to go forward with this project, despite concerns that the pods would vacate and not return. With so little effort required to give it a try, I might as well…

I'd like to test a theory. Lets call it the "Field of Dreams" theory. "If you build it, they will come."

So, this will be an experiment. I want to test the pods ability/preference to 'find' the refugium. I will not be stocking this refugium with any pods at all. Rather, I will construct an environment I think is inline with their needs, and see if they populate it, of their own 'free will'. Sounds nuts, doesn't it?

If it works, great, bragging rights galore. If not, I will quietly set up the external version I had originally planned…

[karimwassef]

But we will not forget!

[karimwassef]

Where did you get the barnacles?

[Michael Hoaster]

Karim, I thought you were all about experiments!

Trying something different can be a lonely road, but I'm happy to go down it. Makes me feel special…

I think it's a fascinating experiment! If free-swimming pods can find locations ideally suited to them in an aquarium, and I think they can, then why not in my overflow?

Got my barnacle shells at my LFS. Reefcleaners.org sells them.

[JLynn]

Do you already have free-swimming pods in your tank? I would expect amphipods to be on the live rock, but I am not sure about copepods. Just meaning to say that if there are no free-swimming pods to begin with, your experiment is doomed to failure .

Either way, it'll be a learning experience for all of us.

[Michael Hoaster]

Good point! I don't know if any are pelagic or not. I bought mixed pods.

I have no live rock at all in the tank, at this time. I do plan to add 25 lbs of caribbean live rock, once the tank cycles/settles down-probably in about a month and a half or so. I wanted to ease the tank through the cycle without a heavy nutrient load. Once the grasses show that they're taking off, I'll feel more confident adding LR.

I do want some pelagic pods for sure, but I don't think they would be the only ones to visit the refugium. Don't forget my fake wall. Benthic plankton should be able to walk right up!

[Portsie]

I am loving this thread. Always something interesting going on. Keep up the good work Michael, and keep the pics coming!

[karimwassef]

Get some base cured LR. It'll accelerate your cycle.