Bleach vs Acid

[bheron]

I've decided to bleach some pretty bad live rock i have (dont ask, this was already debated in another thread).

My question is: what is the difference between what bleach does to live rock and what something like muriatic acid does?

Both would be diluted with water and the rock soaked in it for hours or days.

I've heard the word "oxidize" associated with bleach but my last chem class was in 1989!

EDIT: while I'm at it, I'd like to add Hydrogen Peroxide to the list!

[Icefire]

Bleach will oxidize/destroy organic matter like algae while acids will mostly remove carbonates (disolve live rock).

When I clean pumps/fittings, I do a 25% bleach, I rinse well than a 4% HCL soak and most things come out clean

[yraveh]

what is the brand name of the bleach

[bheron]

icefire - thanks. i had no idea about the acid. i've used it to clean an old tank and old fittings and it worked great.

yraveh - good question. this is clorox bleach. i know there are different types of clorox too.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What are you trying to accomplish?

To kill things, use bleach.

To remove copper or phosphate, use acid.

[bheron]

i've used the acid to remove copper in the past.

trying to clean a batch of LR that is so filled with junk. i "cooked" 1/2 of the LR and this other half I'd like to try a different alternative.

I know it will kill everything, but cant be sure how much of it will be removed / oxidized from the LR/

[yraveh]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
To remove copper or phosphate, use acid.

Please comment on the acid name, concentration, and for how long to soak the LR.

[moo0o]

how well of a rise would one have to do if you use bleach?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Please comment on the acid name, concentration, and for how long to soak the LR.

The idea is to dissolve away the outer layer of the rock, taking copper with it, so you'd use 1:10 diluted muriatic acid in water or straight vinegar to do so.
how well of a rise would one have to do if you use bleach?

You'd need extensive rinsing, followed by either a dehclorinating agent or a long time sitting dry outside.

[HighlandReefer]

Would it be worth while to test the water that you do your final soak after using the bleach for chlorine?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's a good idea, if you soak the rock in it long enough. You might go partly by smell too.

[Fredy]

I am planning on bleaching some LR as well.
How much bleach do I use per gallon of water? and how long is it ok to let it soak in the bleach solution for? Will it be necessary to soak in vinegar/water solution after bleaching?

TIA,
Fredy

[bheron]

hi randy, just got back from vacation and picking up on this thread. a few more questions:

- to really clean out this LR, would it be good to do both? ie - first bleach to kill things, then use the acid to remove phosphate? or the reverse order?

- what is the recommended ratio for bleach and water?

- any recommendations for a decholorinator? I have about 150 lbs of LR to dose.

- finally, if air dryed, how long is a "long time"?

thanks. very excited to get this started.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, both is good, IMO.

I probably dilute bleach in at least 10 parts tap or RO/DI water.

I don't have a recommended dechlorinator.

A few weeks is a good time to aerate out time. Less with dechlorinator.

[therealfatman]

Normally recommended quantities of 5% chlorox for heavy disinfection is two to three teaspoons per gallon of water (1/4 cup per 5 gallons is close enough). However, organics quickly inactivate chlorine so it should be added regularly when soaking rock/substrates. Pour off water laden with organics and add new water and more chlorine. Old school was to boil the live rock then soak in mild bleach solution. The sodium thiosulfate sold at LFS is way to diluted to economically dechlorinate the water used at these concentartions of chlorine.

With the chlorine add the small amounts and as long as you can smell it do not add more unless your replacing water.

Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate Crystals
http://www.ioffer.com/i/Sodium-Thios...-2-Lb-53868686

Sodium Thiosulfate Calculator
http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcdechlor.asp

[mouserusker]

I have some 68% dry granular calcium hypochlorite. we use it at work. How is this different from "regular" bleach? I know from using it that it is pretty potent stuff.

[nes999]

one word VINGER it works the best and in EXTREAMLY low doses it wont harm the fish

[wrightnow]

I did the muriatic acid treatment on my rock soaking it for about 12 hours then rinsed the rock very will and then put it in a tub of saltwater with pumps to cycle, will this be ok?

[bheron]

well, i filled a tub with about 30 gallons of RODI and added about 2.8 gallons of clorox bleach. to the realfaman's point above, I was wondering if eventually it loses its power b/c some of the rock still has brown spots on it.

so i think i need to drain and give it another run??

wrightnow - see randy's post above: bleach and acid do different things to the rock.

[bertoni]

It'll lose its power as it reacts with organic material, and some will be lost via evaporation, depending on the time frame. Personally, I wouldn't bother with another run, but it wouldn't hurt.

[bheron]

I'd love to be done with the whole process. I just dont know if it removed as much as it should've. Maybe I'll post a few before and after pics.

[therealfatman]

Just keep your coral soaking water's pH at around 7 or lower and it really does not require a lot of chlorine. It does not take a lot to kill microorganisms and that is all the chlorine should really be used for.

Acid or boiling water works better for vigorous cleaning. Acid is easily neutralized with a base such as Calcium Hydroxide or Sodium Hydroxide, and a simple pH reading will indicate that neutralization. Accurate low level readings of chlorine are not easily obtained even with the best meters and reagents.

HOCl forms at low pH's and OCl forms at higher pH's. The HOCl is much more effective at much lower concentrations than OCL prevalent at higher pH's. Excessive chlorine in conjunction with ammonia can mean the possible formation of monochloramine, dichloroamine and triclhloroamine to a smaller extent. Doesn't mean much then to have disinfected rock. The chlorine just kills microorganisms.

Also realise that chlorine works quickly. Most water treatnment and even waste warer reatment plants are only maintaining high levels of chlorine for an average of 30 minutes to an hour. One quarter cup to 5 gallons of water would be considered a very high concentration by a water or waste water treament plant. They are however only killing the organism not trying to physically destroy is very structure.

I have not read and research on how trichloromethane or trichloroethane effects corals and fish.

[wrightnow]

wrightnow - see randy's post above: bleach and acid do different things to the rock.

I read Randy post about bleach and acid doing differant things, what I want to know is what is the treatment after the rock has soaked in acid ot get it ready for the tank

[Hammsreefbeer]

call me mark if lil mark flakes on you,ill give you a hand if im around.im going to wait to see how everything with your rock turns out

[wrightnow]

Thanks Doug, I will let you know..

IU agree if you can wait give it another couple of weeks and lets see how my tanks comes out