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Unread 03/27/2012, 08:48 PM   #1
Reeferhead
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Am I screwed? (Velvet)

Here's the story. After two weeks in QT I added an apparently healthy Klein's Butterfly to my display. Two days later the entire fish was covered in spots. It looked like ick to me at the time and I pulled the fish back out and placed it into QT for Hypo treatment. After two days in Hypo the Klein's is now showing all telltale signs of advanced velvet and looks to be a goner.

I know I'm going to lose this fish and I'm comfortable with that but what about the other fish in the display? Was two days long enough for the trophonts to drop off? The fish looked perfect and was eating great when added. When will I know for sure? Next week?


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Unread 03/27/2012, 09:09 PM   #2
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You should probably start treatment just to be safe. Here is a previous post:
http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/sh...php?p=19907650


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Unread 03/27/2012, 09:31 PM   #3
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Double post


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Unread 03/27/2012, 09:36 PM   #4
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That's going to be tough. I dont currently have a hospital tank large enough to handle all of the fish. I can buy one and set it up but I was considering holding off on treatment until I at least see symptoms in one of the fish. It will likely take that long to get the hospital tank up and running anyway. Does this seem logical?


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Unread 03/27/2012, 09:52 PM   #5
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From what I have read, you should treat it early and quickly for best results. I understand your situation because even catching fish to quarantine in a 150 reef has to be close to impossible. Hope the one did not have the chance to infect your tank. The more I read, the more I see that I need to take quarantining fish mor seriously than I do.


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Unread 03/27/2012, 11:49 PM   #6
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Unfortunately, you do not have much time. Velvet is a very fast killer, and usually by the time you see symptoms, it's already too late. You have to act now if you want to save your fish. I'd go get that QT ASAP, put all of the fish in there, and dose 0.25ppm of cupramine immediately.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 05:13 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandwi54 View Post
Unfortunately, you do not have much time. Velvet is a very fast killer, and usually by the time you see symptoms, it's already too late. You have to act now if you want to save your fish. I'd go get that QT ASAP, put all of the fish in there, and dose 0.25ppm of cupramine immediately.
I agree. Velvet is quick and almost always fatal.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:08 AM   #8
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I fully understand the lethality of this disease, I've experienced it before in another tank. I know the safest course is to pull and treat all the fish. However, does anyone wish to comment on my first question concering the life cycle and how long it takes for the trophonts to drop off and infect the tank? Any links you can point me to concerning this specific issue? I've read the trophont stage lasts 12 hrs to 4 days. Could the seamingly healthy fish had mature trophonts ready to drop off as soon as it was put in the display?

I found the fish dead it QT this morning BTW


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:27 AM   #9
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The short answer to your question. Do you want to roll the dice?

What is Oodinium?

Velvet or Coral Fish Disease is caused from an infestation of the dinoflagellate Amyloodinium ocellatum. The life cycle of Velvet is very similar to the life cycle of marine ich. This organism is parasitic on fish at one stage in its life cycle; during that stage it is visible to the naked eye. The total life cycle for this parasite approximates 3 weeks; but for total safety after a tank is infected two life cycles should be waited (six weeks). The life cycle is very similar to cryptocaryon irritans but the effect on fish is much more severe.

Due to the fact that this organism is able to reproduce so rapidly, when an Oodinum outbreak occurs in an aquarium and it is not immediately diagnosed and treated, in a closed saltwater system it can reach overwhelming and disastrous numbers in a very short period of time. This parasite is one of the most common causes of a tank wipeout, or an abrupt loss of all the fish in a saltwater aquarium. Often times by the time you notice the problem it is really too late.

The Life Cycle of Amyloodinium ocellatum

• Free-swimming cells called dinospores are released from a mature cyst and go in search of a host fish. Typically these cells can survive seven to eight days without a host, but in lower tank temperatures at around 75-80 degrees, some strains may last up to 30+ days. Raising the temperature will speed up the life cycle but it also reduces dissolved oxygen in your tank water. For fish with this parasite in their gills, this is an unfortunate treatment.

• Once a host is found, typically heading for the soft tissue inside the gills first, the dinospores lose their swimming capabilities and become non-motile parasitic trophozoites. At this stage they turn parasitic, as each attaches to the host fish by sending out a filament for feeding.
• After deriving nutrition for 3 days to a week the trophozoites become mature and drop off into the substrate, may remain hidden in the mucus membrane, or sometimes be deeply embedded in the tissue of a host fish, where at this point each forms a type of hard shell covering.

• Inside each encrusted cyst the cells, now called tomonts, reproduce internally by non-sexual division. Upon reaching maturity in about five days, each cyst ruptures and releases hundreds of new free-swimming dinospores to start the cycle all over again, but in much large numbers. This means that over time the effect is multiplied.

Symptoms

Most similarly symptomatic to Brooklynella, Oodinium organisms primarily attack the gills first. At the onset of this infestation fish often scrape up against objects in the aquarium, lethargy sets in, and rapid respiration develops, which is the result of excess mucus in the gills due to the invasion of the parasites. This is typically noticed as fish staying at the surface of the water, or remaining in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium such as near overflows or powerheads.

As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other parasites is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.

Now in the advanced stage of the disease the production of gill and body mucus increases, the fish becomes listless, refuses to eat, and it's not unusual for a secondary infection to develop. For fish that reach this end stage of the disease, it's typically too late. They usually do not respond to treatment, and most often will die.

Most Effective Treatments for Oodinium

• Remove all fish from the main aquarium, give them a freshwater dip. Prepare a freshwater dip. For this dip, adjust pH (so as reduce more osmotic stress than need be) and add Methylene Blue (at double in tank strength), use a specific gravity of 1.001 for the saltwater fish. This dip should be no less than 3 minutes and no more than 5 minutes to be effective. This is very effective in removing Oodinium directly from the fish (including gills). Do not be alarmed if the fish ‘lays down’ and acts dead, this is a common initial reaction and the fish will usually perk up a minute or two into the dip. How this works is that the cell membrane of the Oodinium cyst cannot withstand the change in osmotic pressure as well as the fish and will burst, that is why the minimum three minutes is a must. This dip is more effective for Oodinium than Cryptocaryon even though this is recommended for both due to the fact that the Oodinium Cyst does not imbed nearly as deep as the Cryptocaryon cyst does, allowing for a much more likely rupture of the cell membrane due to osmotic pressure.

Following a fresh water dip use a formalin bath, and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. To address complications from secondary infections, also treat the fish with an appropriate antibiotic or anti-bacterial medication. Continue treating the fish in the QT until the oodinium appears to be gone, and then keep treating for another week after that.

• Unfortunately, Oodinium can withstand a broad salinity range (from 3 to 45 ppt) so Hyposalinity is not an effective treatment.

• Treatment with copper is often the recommended course of action, however keeping copper exactly at the proper level is very difficult and infeasible for many aquarists which is why I prefer a freshwater dip followed by a formalin bath.

Preventing Reinfection

Reinfection will occur no matter how effectively the fish have been treated if the organisms are not eradicated from the main aquarium. Because they require a fish host to survive, this can be accomplished by keeping the tank devoid of any fish for at least six weeks. For fish-only aquariums the tank temperature can be elevated to 85 to 90 degrees to speed up the life cycle of the organisms, which will help to eliminate all cysts and dinospores in three weeks.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:43 AM   #10
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Thanks Steve,

I know your right I was just hoping for a possible out. Its going to be a real PITA but I suppose its my own fault for trying to rush things so I need to deal with it. Probably better to be safe than sorry. Time to go shopping.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:44 AM   #11
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I agree with snorvich completely. IMO & IME, the chance of velvet not infecting other fish is probably the same as the Cubs chances to win the World Series this year. Going back to your 1st post: two weeks is nowhere near long enough to keep a fish in the QT. IMO, 4 weeks is minimum.
Sorry. the above post hit while I was typing; making my drivel unnecessary.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTuskfish View Post
I agree with snorvich completely. IMO & IME, the chance of velvet not infecting other fish is probably the same as the Cubs chances to win the World Series this year.
The cubs. A very sad analogy.


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Unread 03/28/2012, 07:59 AM   #13
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I typically QT for 4-6 weeks but I rushed things with the Klein's when I saw a new wrasse I wanted at the LFS. Bonehead move on my part


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Unread 03/28/2012, 11:57 AM   #14
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Steve,

Questions about your method above. How long is the formalin bath? What eactly does "Continue treating fish in QT" mean? just the antibiotics?

This assumes that the Freshwater dip and formalin bath will work 100% on the first try correct? There are no subsequent treatments? Is there a decent chance it wouldn't work 100% and the QT tank could in essence be infected?


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Unread 03/28/2012, 02:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snorvich View Post
The cubs. A very sad analogy.
But I love the Cubs, Wrigley, and The Billy Goat Tavern. maybe this year!


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Unread 03/28/2012, 10:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
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... IMO & IME, the chance of velvet not infecting other fish is probably the same as the Cubs chances to win the World Series this year...
It could happen. LOL.

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But I love the Cubs, Wrigley, and The Billy Goat Tavern. maybe this year!



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Unread 03/29/2012, 07:15 AM   #17
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It could happen. LOL.
Yeah; and i could start dating Rosie O'Donnell too.


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Unread 03/29/2012, 07:47 AM   #18
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Ok guys, I like a good rip on the Cubbies as much as the next guy but can anyone help answer my earlier question? Sorry but I'm on a short timeline here for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeferhead View Post
Steve,

Questions about your method above. How long is the formalin bath? What eactly does "Continue treating fish in QT" mean? just the antibiotics?

This assumes that the Freshwater dip and formalin bath will work 100% on the first try correct? There are no subsequent treatments? Is there a decent chance it wouldn't work 100% and the QT tank could in essence be infected?

I setup a 29 gallon hospital tank last night. I think it will be big enough, I'll be treating 6 fish: a powder blue, 2 percula clowns, bartlett's anthias, yellow watchman goby, and a orchid dottyback if I can catch him. The tank is bare bottom with a power filter, extra power head, heater, PVC pipe and fittings. I filled it with water and salt last night and added a bottle of that instant ocean bacteria (never used it before but thought it couldn't hurt) and some Amquel. I also bought one of those ammonia sensors. I've never rushed a cycle like this so I'm quite nervous about it. I was going to wait to start catching and treating until Friday night, unless there is a good reason to rush it.

None of the fish in the display are showing any symptoms yet. I should probably mention that I have a melenuras wrasse in my primary QT tank. This is the same QT tank that housed the Klien's, so this wrasse has obviously been exposed as well. It was purchase last Friday, thus the reason for rushing the Klien's out of QT. As of last night it was eating well, with no noticeable symptoms… yet. I think I’m either going to treat this fish separate, or just leave it alone and see what happens. Use it as a canary in the coal mine so to speak, perhaps I misdiagnosed and I was just a really bad case of ick.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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Unread 03/29/2012, 08:16 AM   #19
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I have Rid-Ick (formalin) and Erythromycin. I couldn't find methylene blue, at the store last night, I'll have to order it online. What specifically is its purpose in this process? I have Cupramine as well, in case I need to go that route.

Also, I've been reading up on Chloroquin DiPhosphate. I know it’s an antimalarial. I wish I would have pick some up when I was in Honduras. You don't need a prescription for it there and it’s like 15 cent a pill


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Unread 03/29/2012, 09:40 AM   #20
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Some of this info you need ASAP. I'd wait (or PM) Steve (snorvich) on the dip timing; he is much more familiar with it than I am. I've always used copper for velvet, but its difficult and dips seem to work very well.
I've seen velvet wipe out a tank overnight, I would act ASAP. I believe that Rid-Ich (odd name, it doesn't control ich) is a combination of formalin and meth. blue; but it could possibly be mal.green, I can't remember which. It should be an acceptable substitute for formalin; I believe the formaldehyde % is the same. Because of the parasite's life cycle, I'm sure dips need repeating, but don't know how many. Unfortunately, regarding your 100% question, nothing in the world of fish parasite control is 100%. As you know, a religiously sticking to a good QT regimen will keep your DT as parasite free as any method I've ever heard of.


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Unread 03/29/2012, 10:01 AM   #21
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Thanks Tusk,

I'll start catching a treating tonight.

The RidIck bottle says Formalin and Mal Green and the Formalin concentrations are available online. I've found suggested dosage rates and dip lengths in Steven Pro's Reefkeeping article. I assume if repeated baths are required the hospital tank would need to be sterilized each time. That seems a hell of a hassle without two hospital tanks setup. I know nothing is 100%, I guess I'm wondering what the estimated success rate would be for a single FW and Formalin treatment? And if I might be better off using the Cupramine? I should have a Salifert Copper test by tommorrow. I could do: FW dip, Formalin Bath, and then Copper in the Hospital tank. Or do you all think thats too much?


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Unread 03/29/2012, 10:20 AM   #22
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The dips provide relief for the fish (unlike ich) as it causes the non-motile parasitic trophozoites in the gills to burst (fresh water dip) or drop off (formalin). However dips do not cure, just postpone the inevitable. Treatment with copper is the best after the dips since we can measure copper level in the hospital tank. It is very important to maintain a therapeutic dosage level as the free swimming dinospores are the life cycle stage that is vulnerable.


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Unread 03/29/2012, 10:27 AM   #23
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I noticed you used amquel. It will make the copper more toxic in some cases. Also, salifert test kit will not work well for cupramine as it is meant to measure ionic copper.


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Unread 03/29/2012, 10:29 AM   #24
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The Salifert test kit does come with a bottle of its own ionic copper though


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Unread 03/29/2012, 10:37 AM   #25
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I see....

Then would it make sense to Fresh water dip and Formalin bath immediately? Then do it again next week followed by Copper after the hospital tank has been allowed to cycle a bit and the Amquel has had a chance to degrade and dilute after WCs?


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