Ick and Coppper Power HELP!!!

[asmodyus]

Okay need help came home all the fish are covered in spots got some got the Copper Power prazipor to dose tank. So my dumb butt goes and doses the tank come back with the get and now I don't knoe if I used the 1/2 Teaspoon was a whole teaspoon I did 2 doses and the spoon are sitting right next to the tank. So I used the api Test kit but I cannot really tell if its 2.0 or 4.0 Copper power says to use 1 once for 20 gallons and I have a 10 gallon QT so I am not sure if I overdose or not. What should I do?

[asmodyus]

Here is pictures if the fish

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

I would use Cupramine instead of the Prazi. My fish are in QT now after an Ich breakout and everything I read told me to dose with Cupramine. Just MHO though...if I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me....

[Sk8r]

OK, this is a qt, right?
If you think you've overdosed, do a 100% water change: prepare new salt water, and just put the fish in a bucket and change the water out: a 10 g is not that huge.

Start over with the correct dose, and I think I would also go with the cupramine. Be sure to mark a fill line for the correct salinity (which will also be marking the proper dosage level for the med) and top off evaporation morning, evening---and noon if you can manage it.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

OK, this is a qt, right?
If you think you've overdosed, do a 100% water change: prepare new salt water, and just put the fish in a bucket and change the water out: a 10 g is not that huge.

Start over with the correct dose, and I think I would also go with the cupramine. Be sure to mark a fill line for the correct salinity (which will also be marking the proper dosage level for the med) and top off evaporation morning, evening---and noon if you can manage it.

So I had a crash this morning my ammonia level were almost 2.0 today. I have no clue what happened. But I Did (2) 3 gallon Fresh saltwater change. and a 3 and a 5 gallon water change from my DT got the amonia down to about .25 at the moment. Killed of 2 of the Chromis

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by asmodyus

So I had a crash this morning my ammonia level were almost 2.0 today. I have no clue what happened. But I Did (2) 3 gallon Fresh saltwater change. and a 3 and a 5 gallon water change from my DT got the amonia down to about .25 at the moment. Killed of 2 of the Chromis

Copper kills the bio filter. Cupramine won't.

[asmodyus]

So another fish died cannot get the ammonia level down I think I have to start from scratch don't know what to do empty out all the water put all new water from my DT but do I add copper back? do I wait a day not sure what to do know need help.

[jrozzi]

If your QT isn't cycled and you have multiple fish in of course there is going to be ammonia you need to a water change every day on it. Are your fish eating?

[asmodyus]

Basically did not set the QT up right took out all the media because it had carbon, replaced it with new media added copper and it crashed the tank. I think there was just not enough beneficial bacteria in since it was only 4 week old tank. So I just did an hail Mary stuck them in my 20 gallon long tank that I did a 10 gallon water change from my DT. This tank was my screw around tank basically fish I bought from locals and QT them in there with no meds has some live rock little bit of coral and inverts. So I am going to be taking out all the inverts and coral, keeping the live rock and if the fish make it the next couple days i will be slowly be adding copper in small doses over several days so I don't kill everything right of the bat and get a mini cycle sacrificing my live rock but this way I will have an established QT tank or in theroy.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by asmodyus

So I am going to be taking out all the inverts and coral, keeping the live rock and if the fish make it the next couple days i will be slowly be adding copper in small doses over several days so I don't kill everything right of the bat and get a mini cycle sacrificing my live rock but this way I will have an established QT tank or in theroy.

Multiple problems with your plan: 1) the live rock will absorb copper (which of course ruins the rock for good) and cause sub-therapeutic doses in the water column. Thus, fish won't be treated with the necessary dose. 2) Even with live rock, copper will kill the bacteria and you'll wind up with ammonia build up. Cupramine is better at not killing bacteria (Seachem says it slows bacteria growth but doesn't outright kill them), but you still have the problem of live rock with any copper source (you won't be able to properly achieve a therapeutic level of Cu with live rock). Also, keep in mind with cupramine that you won't be able to use a NH3 test as cupramine gives a false positive (you'll need an ammonia alert badge).

If you are going to use copper, you need to do daily or twice daily (large) water changes to keep the ammonia at bay. Without live rock around.

Alternatively, you could use chloroquine phosphate or do tank transfer to eliminate ich.

[inetmug]

YOU NEED TO GET A GOOD COPPER TEST!!!!!!!!!

Salifert or Seachem, I recommend the seachem if going with Cuprimine, but the salifert will work, but does not have the granularity you need. That is step one.

As suggested, you need to change the tank out completely, and start over. I do water changes every third day in a copper QT tank, do not overfeed (but is is what worked for me, I had lots of QT tanks, with low bioloads, test ammonia every day to dial it in). Make sure you dose per the instructions on the water changes. You can make your SW change water in containers, and dose it there to make it easier. Cuprimine needs 48 hours before a redose, so it can be helpful to make your change water on the side all ready to go. All I can say is test, test, test with the copper test until you get the hang of it. Go slow, a few extra days of the copper cycle will not hurt anything, but you want the cycle as short as possible. At the end just start doing your water changes with no copper to bring it down, it will come down quick. If you want, your can get some cuprisorb, which will remove it. When and if you mix copper brands/types, be especially careful to TEST as the interaction can cause issues. Suggest cuprimine as others have stated, and stay with it.

Prazipro is great for flukes and other stuff but is a separate medication.

There is no need to cycle a copper QT tank, just water changes. When the airstone starts to foam the surface, it is past time for a change. When you are done, clean the tank and put it away for another day.

Just use the sponge filter. I would also recommend a separate airstone in eash QT over and above any mechanical filter (I use HOB so I can adjust media type). You need good surface agitation for gas exchange in a QT. Bring the copper up SLOW, and keep it steady.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Multiple problems with your plan: 1) the live rock will absorb copper (which of course ruins the rock for good) and cause sub-therapeutic doses in the water column. Thus, fish won't be treated with the necessary dose. 2) Even with live rock, copper will kill the bacteria and you'll wind up with ammonia build up. Cupramine is better at not killing bacteria (Seachem says it slows bacteria growth but doesn't outright kill them), but you still have the problem of live rock with any copper source (you won't be able to properly achieve a therapeutic level of Cu with live rock). Also, keep in mind with cupramine that you won't be able to use a NH3 test as cupramine gives a false positive (you'll need an ammonia alert badge).

If you are going to use copper, you need to do daily or twice daily (large) water changes to keep the ammonia at bay. Without live rock around.

Alternatively, you could use chloroquine phosphate or do tank transfer to eliminate ich.

Originally Posted by inetmug

YOU NEED TO GET A GOOD COPPER TEST!!!!!!!!!

Salifert or Seachem, I recommend the seachem if going with Cuprimine, but the salifert will work, but does not have the granularity you need. That is step one.

As suggested, you need to change the tank out completely, and start over. I do water changes every third day in a copper QT tank, do not overfeed (but is is what worked for me, I had lots of QT tanks, with low bioloads, test ammonia every day to dial it in). Make sure you dose per the instructions on the water changes. You can make your SW change water in containers, and dose it there to make it easier. Cuprimine needs 48 hours before a redose, so it can be helpful to make your change water on the side all ready to go. All I can say is test, test, test with the copper test until you get the hang of it. Go slow, a few extra days of the copper cycle will not hurt anything, but you want the cycle as short as possible. At the end just start doing your water changes with no copper to bring it down, it will come down quick. If you want, your can get some cuprisorb, which will remove it. When and if you mix copper brands/types, be especially careful to TEST as the interaction can cause issues. Suggest cuprimine as others have stated, and stay with it.

Prazipro is great for flukes and other stuff but is a separate medication.

There is no need to cycle a copper QT tank, just water changes. When the airstone starts to foam the surface, it is past time for a change. When you are done, clean the tank and put it away for another day.

Just use the sponge filter. I would also recommend a separate airstone in eash QT over and above any mechanical filter (I use HOB so I can adjust media type). You need good surface agitation for gas exchange in a QT. Bring the copper up SLOW, and keep it steady.
Today 07:36 AM

See that what I was doing before I was even put copper in there I was doing every other day water changes about 2 to 3 gallons with no meds. When the fish broke out that day with ich and I added the copper I followed it by a 2 gallon water change(not sure if I dose a little to much with copper power) than that morning the tank starting crashing. Did 3 small water changes that day and than a 50% water change and could not get the ammonia to under .25 and I think thats what killed all the fish.

So know there in the 20L still alive and seem okay. FW dipped them before they were put in I have 2 orange size Live rock in there with little but of sand and rubble. I am going to give them the day and treat them with Prazipro tomorrow and than I will start doing small doses of copper yes I know the live rock will absorb some but It will help with keeping the tank stable and that all I care about at the moment since I tried it the other way and failed miserably.

[Sk8r]

Sorry you've had this trouble. A cycled qt tank is not necessary. You can set up one in which you just keep the filter media clean and water flushing through fast, for max aeration, including even a bubbler, if you put it safely behind an eggcrate shield.

Ich this bad impedes the gills, which means the fish is getting less oxygen.

Total water change every day until the problem is solved is not a problem in salt or freshwater, as long as you keep the filter medium clean.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Sorry you've had this trouble. A cycled qt tank is not necessary. You can set up one in which you just keep the filter media clean and water flushing through fast, for max aeration, including even a bubbler, if you put it safely behind an eggcrate shield.

Ich this bad impedes the gills, which means the fish is getting less oxygen.

Total water change every day until the problem is solved is not a problem in salt or freshwater, as long as you keep the filter medium clean.

Your right A cycled QT tank is not necessary but I am stocking my 120 and will be rebuying fish for a bit so might as well make a permanent QT tank and just transfer the 20L into a QT. The 10 gallon is drained now and plus the 20 gallon is better for the fish more room.

[Sk8r]

Yes. This is fine---with one caution. If one fish in this process shows up ich, and that tank has a sandbed, the sandbed has to be allowed to lie fallow 12 weeks, or needs to be tossed and tank and filter housing totally cleaned out. This is why I prefer a bare tank, cycled or uncycled. And why if you are qting one of the wrasses which sleep in sand, I'd do it last.

[asmodyus]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Yes. This is fine---with one caution. If one fish in this process shows up ich, and that tank has a sandbed, the sandbed has to be allowed to lie fallow 12 weeks, or needs to be tossed and tank and filter housing totally cleaned out. This is why I prefer a bare tank, cycled or uncycled. And why if you are qting one of the wrasses which sleep in sand, I'd do it last.

Yeah it’s a very small sand area would not even call it a sand bed just some patches that some of the snails were hiding in, does not even cover the whole tank just on the side might even get rid of the sand before I treat the copper. But won't the copper kill the ICH even in the sand bed? SO basically what I need to watch for when I do start introducing the copper is first the dye off of the live rock and rubble correct? Second monitor the copper absorption in the small piece of live rock to get a since of how much copper I will need to add to keep it at the recommended dosage. Now from what I understand copper power does not affect the Ammonia Testers and should be able to monitor the ammonia levels accurately as to using Cupramine and a badge which is not accurate.

[asmodyus]

From reading I guess I could get coppersafe which is suppose to not effect the bioload on live rock and not cause any die off is this true?

[asmodyus]

The biggest issue is I have no filter media with any type of bi load what I did have had carbon and I removed from the tank the old qt that crashed. snd the nightmare of changing water is crazy. So all I have now is subsrate and LR with a biolad in a tank running for a while again the media that was in the 20 gallon were media with carbon so again I had to get rid of it for meds. Now I have filter floss in the HOB now but it will take awhile before it will be good with bio load.

[inetmug]

Originally Posted by asmodyus

From reading I guess I could get coppersafe which is suppose to not effect the bioload on live rock and not cause any die off is this true?

cuprimine does nto kill the sandbad, coppersafe will I believe

Keep a sepeates QT tank for invertibrates if needbe. 10G tanks are cheap

Ammonia comes from bioload, or dead stuff, like a fish, snail, etc. You need to keep that sponge clean from detritus, when doing a water change vacumne the bottom as well. this is why I like a hob, changing the mechanical media can be done quickly on the fly.

[asmodyus]

Well the remaining fish seem to be doing okay today they are all acclimating to the 20 I just treated them with Prazipro. In the next couple day will be do very small doses of copper and bring up to treatment levels and hopefully everything will be good and a couple weeks they will be in the display tank.

[Newsmyrna80]

Are you prophylactically treating for flukes or did you confirm them with a FW dip? Unless they have flukes I would wait until you've cleared the ich and removed the copper before dosing with Prazi. The combination of the two meds can be very hard on some fish.

[asmodyus]

When I FW dip there was something in the Anthais Eye and its cloudy and I swear it moved so I am treating for that first since I don't want to start the copper treatment in the new tank. And since you can use both I will be doing a slow ramp up copper treatment over the a couple days currently they are not showing any ICH anymore so the whole tank transfer method might have work for now.

[asmodyus]

Well the last Anthias died not sure what happened levels are fine I guess he just could not make it after the crash or administering Prazipro may have killed him. I do not know but after I dose the tank with Prazipro he started a downward spiral. Maybe I should have waited a couple more days before dosing them but not sure but there was no visible signs of ICH. Out of the whole lot the only one left is 1 Reef Blue chromis this is very sad and expensive couple of weeks I am almost glad it over it one since.

[asmodyus]

So I dosed the QT tank with Copper at 12 this afternoon since it has some live rock I expect some die of. How long do guys think it will take for ammonia to start showing up in couple hours a day? I probably should check the tank every hours maybe. When I do my water change 25% to 30% and do I use Fresh Salt or water from the DT.

[asmodyus]

Okay It's been 12 hours I have the ammonia badge and right now it not registering anything but I just did an a API Ammonia tester and it registering what looks like to be .25 on the ammonia chart. Do I do a 25% water change now or wait till it gets to .5 and if I do a water change new Salt water or Display Tank water?