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Unread 06/12/2014, 10:35 AM   #501
PalmDesert
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What happened to the old way of using small amounts of vinegar in a 5 - 10 gal tub, letting it soak overnight and rinsing with tap water very well? The rinsing process takes a large amount of clean water. If cleaning rock, soak to rinse the rock over several days, changing with frequent water changes. I have been doing this for over 7 years and have had no problems.


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Unread 06/12/2014, 10:55 AM   #502
Randy Holmes-Farley
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I have been doing this for over 7 years

FWIW, the thread started 5 years ago, and at that time I suggested using acid if the goal was removal of copper or phosphate. I'm not sure things have changed since then. It is still the procedure we generally recommend, although muriatic acid is also a good choice of acid.


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Unread 06/15/2014, 08:38 PM   #503
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Lots of good info here - thanks to everyone who's contributed.

My issue is dinoflagellates, which I assume are everywhere throughout my system. I won't derail the thread with the number of things I've tried to beat them; suffice it to say that nothing has worked and I'm now at the point where nuking the tank won't be a big sacrifice. All livestock has long since been removed, so I want to sterilize everything in place without dismantling any of it.

Is there any reason I should not add bleach directly to the tank? Does bleach have any affect on acrylic or PVC?

Can I add the bleach to the existing saltwater, or should I replace it with freshwater first? It doesn't seem like this is necessary since I'd be draining afterwards anyway, but it can't hurt to ask.

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I didn't see them answered elsewhere in this thread. Thanks in advance.


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Unread 06/15/2014, 09:42 PM   #504
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I've used chlorine bleach directly in a tank before. I do think you will need to remove everything inside the tank and bleach it separately. Since you're going to have to do that and drain the tank anyway, why not drain first, fill with tap water and bleach, let it sit (with a couple of pumps circulating) for hours to a day, then remove the water, refill with fresh water and add dechlorinator. I would get a pool water test kit from wall mart (test strips) to check that you've removed all of the chlorine. Then I would drain the tank and let it dry completely before reusing. The rocks you will need to nuke, obviously, as well as clean and sterilize all of your equipment. I would rinse and scrub, and let it stew with circulation and a high concentration of bleach (I've used up to 50%) to make sure the buggers are out of the pores in the rock and the hidden areas of the pumps, heaters, etc. Tubing gets thrown out. Manual cleaning is a must as biofilm builds up on all surfaces and is remarkably resistant to many chemicals.
Dinos are nasty. Good luck.


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Unread 08/11/2014, 01:51 PM   #505
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Ok, I've just performed this task again after my tank crashed during the winter snow storm we had back here on the east coast. Its taken me awhile but I soaked the rock in a water-bleach solution for a long time (a few months, not in purpose just didnt have the time). then drained and rinsed and soaked in a water-acid solution for a day or so. Finally I rinsed the rock with a garden hose, let dry outside for a day, then put into a 100g tub of RODI.

After a few days I tested the water and found:

1) Nitrates @25ppm

2) Phosphate .09

Wow. I can understand the phosphate but am totally shocked to find Nitrate in this water. To recap, the rock sat in bleach/water from say March - July. Figured nothing was left alive. Then soaked for 24 hrs in water/acid.

Any ideas why I would see Nitrate at this stage?


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Unread 08/11/2014, 02:23 PM   #506
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Any organic debris in the rock will decay to produce nitrate and phosphate.


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Unread 08/11/2014, 02:46 PM   #507
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i guess i wasnt expecting any, but now that i type that out loud :-) it sounds ridiculous. So, in essence, it sounds like the bleach took care of most organics but not all?


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Unread 08/11/2014, 02:50 PM   #508
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The bleach will kill a lot of things, and break down some organics, but it won't remove debris and a lot of organics will remain as nutrient sources.


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Unread 08/11/2014, 02:58 PM   #509
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Right, I remember discussing this a few months ago and went back to where Dkeller_nc stated....

"You are correct that bleach oxidizes organics, but the issue is that it oxidizes some organics. "

And he also discussed the use of sodium hydroxide (NaOH). I have some on hand and wondering if that will do the trick, and quicker?


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Unread 08/11/2014, 03:33 PM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bheron View Post
Right, I remember discussing this a few months ago and went back to where Dkeller_nc stated....

"You are correct that bleach oxidizes organics, but the issue is that it oxidizes some organics. "

And he also discussed the use of sodium hydroxide (NaOH). I have some on hand and wondering if that will do the trick, and quicker?
And to requote Randy's answer

"What are you trying to accomplish?

To kill things, use bleach.

To remove copper or phosphate, use acid. "


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Unread 08/11/2014, 07:58 PM   #511
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Unless the tank had some sort of infectious disease or dangerous pest, I'd just rinse the rock well and cure it, personally.


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Unread 08/11/2014, 09:42 PM   #512
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Lye is nasty stuff. As Bertoni said, I'd skip the caustic chemicals at this point and just cure the rocks over time as if they were new.


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Unread 08/12/2014, 10:59 AM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bheron View Post
Ok, I've just performed this task again after my tank crashed during the winter snow storm we had back here on the east coast. Its taken me awhile but I soaked the rock in a water-bleach solution for a long time (a few months, not in purpose just didnt have the time). then drained and rinsed and soaked in a water-acid solution for a day or so. Finally I rinsed the rock with a garden hose, let dry outside for a day, then put into a 100g tub of RODI.
I'm no expert or chemist, but it seems to me that by using a garden hose and regular tap water to rinse everything off you added nutrients, etc. right back onto the rock. I just bleached and acid bathed my rock but after I finished with the acid I rinsed in fresh RO/DI water then let it dry.


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Unread 08/12/2014, 11:33 AM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly guy View Post
I'm no expert or chemist, but it seems to me that by using a garden hose and regular tap water to rinse everything off you added nutrients, etc. right back onto the rock. I just bleached and acid bathed my rock but after I finished with the acid I rinsed in fresh RO/DI water then let it dry.
Calcification of rock does not happen that quickly for a quick rinse to have any affect. Tao water can but is usually not that high in phosphates and or nitrates to make a difference
If it was live rock however depending on the temp and chlorine it could kill some bacteria


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Unread 08/12/2014, 12:45 PM   #515
bheron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_hylinur View Post
And to requote Randy's answer

"What are you trying to accomplish?

To kill things, use bleach.

To remove copper or phosphate, use acid. "
LOL, neither! Am trying to remove/dissolve waste the easiest and quickest way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Unless the tank had some sort of infectious disease or dangerous pest, I'd just rinse the rock well and cure it, personally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
Lye is nasty stuff. As Bertoni said, I'd skip the caustic chemicals at this point and just cure the rocks over time as if they were new.
Yea, i see what you guys are saying. I think I'll just go that route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly guy View Post
I'm no expert or chemist, but it seems to me that by using a garden hose and regular tap water to rinse everything off you added nutrients, etc. right back onto the rock. I just bleached and acid bathed my rock but after I finished with the acid I rinsed in fresh RO/DI water then let it dry.
I could see phosphate being added via the tap water but organics that would be causing nitrate?

So I think I will just swish these rocks in RODI and then put in another fresh batch of RODI and do water changes until nitrate = 0. And will use GFO to pull out the phosphate. And take my time :-)

My end goal is not to start my tank again until I'm sure my live rock has zero nitrates and zero phosphates.


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Unread 08/12/2014, 02:14 PM   #516
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The nitrate would come from organic debris, assuming the water going into the tank is nitrate-free.


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Unread 08/12/2014, 02:26 PM   #517
bheron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
The nitrate would come from organic debris, assuming the water going into the tank is nitrate-free.
I'm using RODI. could nitrate be in my tap water and possibly making it through my RODI if the filters needed to be changed?


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Unread 08/12/2014, 03:13 PM   #518
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Some nitrate could get past the filters, but the amount should be very small. Your nitrate kit should work on tap water, so you could test it.


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Unread 08/12/2014, 03:14 PM   #519
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yep, thanks, i will do that. very interesting as always. will post results. thanks!


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Unread 08/12/2014, 06:50 PM   #520
Aquarist007
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I'm using RODI. could nitrate be in my tap water and possibly making it through my RODI if the filters needed to be changed?
One of Randy's articles deals with this...he did the math and it is trivial
Jonathan perhaps you can post the link again?


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Unread 08/12/2014, 10:30 PM   #521
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I'm not sure which article you mean.


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Unread 08/13/2014, 05:05 AM   #522
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It was a phosphate article, but the math is likely similar: the input of a small amount of nitrate in top off water is not likely a significant contributor to the overall nitrate level in a reef tank.


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Unread 08/13/2014, 03:54 PM   #523
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Okay, I remember the phosphate article.


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Unread 08/13/2014, 05:19 PM   #524
Aquarist007
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Quote:
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It was a phosphate article, but the math is likely similar: the input of a small amount of nitrate in top off water is not likely a significant contributor to the overall nitrate level in a reef tank.
This article really changed my thinking about what we are feeding in our tanks.
Thank you


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Unread 08/18/2014, 10:10 AM   #525
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OOooookay, so I learned a few things. No matter how much experience I gain I find I still make bonehead moves

So I learned this:

1) I was reading my low level nitrate test kit wrong. Where I thought the nitrate was 25ppm it's really 0.25ppm. oops.

2) after draining my holding tank where I was getting the 0.25ppm reading I did find two dead bugs (result of rinsing and drying my rocks outside). so, yea, there's some organic decay for you!

most importantly...

3) I decided to go back and test my RODI water, at each step of the way. Found 0.25ppm nitrate in my RODI holding tank. Hmmm. so tested the RODI output and, shocker, 0.25ppm coming out of my RODI! Geeze. Also tested my tap water and I think the nitrate was maybe 100ppm.


So in the end that was my problem. Did a long overdue change of my RODI filters and Nitrate = 0. Soaking rock overnight and will post test results tonight when I get home.

Thanks all.


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