Instant Ocean Biopolymer Nitrate Reducer

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The epsilon in the same implies where the hydroxy group in the uncyclized molecule.

HOCH2CH3CH3CH3CH3CO2H

It could be attached to any of the carbon atoms, although only the last three carbons will allow it to cyclize into a lactone. The first carbon after the carbonyl would be alpha, second beta, third delta, then gamma, then epsilon.

All of them can form a polymer, but for most purposes, one can drop the epsilon and just read the name polycaprolactone since it is the common form.

[HighlandReefer]

Thanks for the explanation Randy, I now recall this from college chemistry too many years ago to say.

I have noticed in several articles that it is cheaper to use wheat (in some cases soy beans,.....etc) to produce this plastic polymer. The cost in quite a bit less. They have articles demonstrating the strength differences for use purposes. They also include studies showing the differences in biodegradability. It appears that when polycaprolactone is produced using the wheat techniques it is more biodegradable and supplies more energy to the bacteria.

I would assume the polycaprolactone produced using wheat would be more beneficial for our purposes? Would the chemical name, polycaprolactone, change when they sell these products using wheat? I suspect that some of the products we are looking at use this methods due to cost?

They refer to the wheat produced polycaprolactone as modified polycaprolactone.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know whether the differences are impurities or molecular weight effects or something else, so it is hard for me to say.

[HighlandReefer]

Research Project: MODIFICATION OF NATURAL POLYMERS BY THERMO-MECHANICAL PROCESSING
http://afrsweb.usda.gov/research/pub..._no_115=216414

From it:

Interpretive Summary: Some conventional plastics are produced from petroleum-based feedstocks and persist in the environment for years. Biodegradable polymers, such as polycaprolactone (PCL), can be degraded in the environment by microorganisms, oxidation and hydrolysis. Biodegradable polymers can be utilized for packaging materials, hygiene products, disposable consumer goods, and agricultural products. The cost of PCL can be reduced by blending agricultural materials, such as wheat gluten (WG), into composite materials with appropriate mechanical properties. The manuscript reports on the formation of a polymer composite composed of PCL and WG fabricated by twin-screw extrusion and injection molding. The data show that there is some adhesion between PCL and WG in the composites indicating that WG is not an inert filler and contributes to the overall mechanical properties of the composite. The composites are biodegradable and competitive in cost with comparable non-sustainable petroleum-based products currently in the marketplace. The current study presents a new way to utilize agricultural materials for the future profitability of the agriculture industry.

Technical Abstract: Wheat gluten (WG) was incorporated into poly(caprolactone) (PCL) up to 50% w/w as a filler to form a biodegradable polymer composite. Microscopic examination showed a well-dispersed particle-matrix system. The composite was evaluated for tensile properties. The tensile strength of the composite decreased linearly with increasing wheat gluten content from 20 MPa (0% WG) to 6 MPa (50% WG). However, the decreases in tensile strength did not fit the Nicolais-Narkis model indicating that some adhesion between WG and PCL occurred. High elongation (>900%) was observed in PCL-WG composites with up to 20% WG which decreased to 400% at 35% WG and finally to less than 100% at 40-50% WG. There was a particle-induced transition at a calculated critical volume of 0.3 corresponding to 30% WG by weight to PCL.

[HighlandReefer]

I suspect, if in fact, the products used are made with 30% wheat gluten, then perhaps overdoses could occur?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I've been informed by an IO insider that the polycaprolactone that they sell has been demonstrated to work well in reef aquaria, but that it may take a while to see good results.

My interpretation is that it may take a while to acquire the proper bacterial populations in the tank.

For folks trying a DIY, I might suggest washing the polymers somehow first, maybe in vodka, or some other solvent to remove any small molecule mold release agents or other materials that may be on the surface, to try to avoid the problems that someone earlier in this thread may have had from the PCL.

[Monkeyfish]

Originally Posted by goldenclove77

Instant Ocean Biopolymer Nitrate Reducer

Has anyone tried this product out yet?

So... for those of us who have limited chemistry knowledge... does this stuff work? Is the IO product worth getting?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been told it works, but I've not seen the results myself or from anyone posting here.

[jptenklooster]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

It should also be noted that PCLs can only be degraded under aerobic conditions, thus decreasing the thikness of the biofilm.

Why is that?

I understand why it might be slower to hydrolyze than a more hydrophilic polymer, but not why it needs to be aerobic.

I don't know why it only works under aerobic conditions, just that it is the case.

Results
The concentration profiles of the continuous-flow-reactors (see fig. 4) showed
considerable reduction of nitrate and oxygen, nitrite concentrations even in the
fixed bed below the limit levels for drinking water. With PCL resp. PHBV
denitrification rates of 14 resp. 30 mg/(m².h) N-NO3
- could be obtained.
However one major advantage of PCL for drinking water purposes is its nondegradabilityunder anaerobic conditions. This leads to an intrinsic security of
the system whenever operational failures occur and a shift into anaerobic
conditions has to be feared.

[solos2]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

Do you see any issue with this statement from the "uses"pdf on that site given the fact that reef tanks run in the 78-80+ degree range? :

"Under no circumstances should polymorph be heated above the range 60-65 degrees max. Above this temperature it will become a sticky adherent mass and present the same hazard as hot-melt glue.

I have no idea just wondering.

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

I'm not sure about this. I have searched on line for some of the things they are bulding using this product. I can't see how the uses they have used to construct computer parts and what have you would hold up at the temperatures mentioned above (60-65 degrees max). It would appear to me, that this product must hold up at higher temperatures??????????????

An example:

http://staff.bath.ac.uk/ensab/replic.../extruder.html

Originally Posted by HighlandReefer

Well, if it doesn't work, you can always build something out of it. At least that's the way I look at it.

I think this was pointed out already but the pellets were meant to melt at 60-65 degrees Celsius not Fahrenheit. 60-65C = 140-150F

[reggiepe]

I have been following this thread as I am interested in the IO Nitrate Reducer. One thing that seems vague to me is the dosing regimen that needs to take place with the product. Is it daily, weekly, or as needed? I read the directions on the bottle and can't seem to extrapolate a dosing regimen.

[kzooreefer]

I had the same question about dosing after I read the directions and from what I found in the various forums and IO's website it is once a week.

[Monkeyfish]

Where are you guys purchasing the IO product from? I haven't found it locally.

[NaClH2Opgh]

DF&S carries it online. I have never seen it locally around here.

[Monkeyfish]

Thanks.

[Flavordsm]

So has anyone tried the friendly plastic? Other than the 1 person who posted about it?

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by Flavordsm

So has anyone tried the friendly plastic? Other than the 1 person who posted about it?

We have two different craft stores and neither of them carry it anymore. Not sure why. We have a big hobby/model store, I was going to check with them also but I doubt it. Looks like online for me if I want to try it.

[Mark]

I ordered some Friendly Plastic and it definitely has a chemical smell. I'm hoping a soak in vodka will clean it up. In contrast, the biopellets have no smell.

[SPStoner]

Originally Posted by reggiepe

I have been following this thread as I am interested in the IO Nitrate Reducer. One thing that seems vague to me is the dosing regimen that needs to take place with the product. Is it daily, weekly, or as needed? I read the directions on the bottle and can't seem to extrapolate a dosing regimen.

It is weekly. The packaging is somewhat vague on this, and will be corrected in future production runs.

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by Monkeyfish

Where are you guys purchasing the IO product from? I haven't found it locally.

I just saw it today at a Petco.

[graveyardworm]

I'm curious how effective at phosphate removal these products are. As I recall the NP Bio-Pellets state that phosphate binders may need to be kept in place on top of using the pellets atleast to some extent. Now the new IO product is called Nitrate reducer but doesnt seem to mention phosphates. If this is a form of carbon dosing then why doesnt it work the same?

I'm also curious about the IO pellets/liquid. You just dose it to the tank? What happens to the pellets, do they sit on the sand, dissolve, or should you use it in a reactor. Sorry if I missed these answers somewhere.

edit: starting to find some answers, quote from RB's quick review

From the patent description, it looks like the products beads settle in the tank mixing with the substrate and finding other nooks and crannies to set up shop then giving nitrate reducing bacteria a food source to proliferate over time.

Several people in my local club are trying out the NP Bio-Pellets. One of them hasnt been shaking the reactor or doing anything to mix it up, and they have what they describe as an oatmeal looking mass in the reactor. If these little IO pellets settle onto the sand and in nooks and crannies in the LR then wouldnt you and up with little gelatinous masses everywhere? or are the pellets so small that they get used up very quickly?

[austin93]

Nevermind, 2 year old decided to contribute while I was reading this thread. Good little reefer .

[Monkeyfish]

lol Aren't kids grand?

[Kevin012]

gust checking cost wise:

the IO stuff runs about $ 12.00 (500 ML) and you have to dose 10 ml/10 gal

lets hope it is to dose once a week

a 150 gal tank needs in 6 months

about 6 of this = $ 72.00

the NP are to start 500 ml / 500L = around 130 gal and is cheaper, is prooven to work and could last a bit longer than 6 months

ahh and talking about a bit of nature, how frendly is it to produce/ship/recycle 6 cans of the IO, if not the land fill (this part is of less considderation for most of us)

[Flavordsm]

Originally Posted by Mark

I ordered some Friendly Plastic and it definitely has a chemical smell. I'm hoping a soak in vodka will clean it up. In contrast, the biopellets have no smell.

If you use it will you let us know how it works out? I'm very interested in the DIY aspect of solid carbon dosing.