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02/22/2016, 10:18 AM | #3176 |
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Yesterday I opened the Calcium reactor up to twice as much flow as usual.
At the same time I fired the Kalk reactor up again. This is a followup to my recent desaturation test,but backwards. Only twelve hours later the results are in with noticeable more dinos on the sand and rocks. This leads to a conclusion that it's the main elements we add that fuel the growth, not the small amounts of numerous trace elements. I find it most likely to be alkalinity, rather than Calcium or Magnesium that is also supplied with my Ca reactor. There could be a twist with added CO2, but pH stays buffered. These are repeating results so they are getting pretty solid. |
02/22/2016, 06:11 PM | #3177 | |
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Doesn't seem like they'd have much use for it. |
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02/22/2016, 08:11 PM | #3178 |
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On the other hand, the reactor media might be contaminated with phosphate, for example. It's possible that the higher dKH makes it easier for the dinoflagellates to take up inorganic carbon, though.
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02/22/2016, 08:25 PM | #3179 |
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It's been a couple of weeks since I did the 3day blackout. It really knocked them back. Ive been keeping my ph above 8.4, no water changes since last week of December or first week of Jan. I've been dosing phyto feast and phyco for those two weeks and I must say I finally have a true turning point. I see pods for the first time since I could remember. I only saw 1 dead Dino after collecting samples and viewing on the microscope.
I will keep y'all posted.
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02/22/2016, 08:33 PM | #3180 |
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Can anyone give me a hint what I'm growing here in my "green tea"?
This is what my skimmate, set in sun/2700k LED bulb with an air bubbler, looks like after a few days. It's not just one organism obviously, but the water is 99% this thing.... 1000x mag. https://youtu.be/3uiOcmCVoQY They zoom around pretty fast. 100x https://youtu.be/g6joZta_fTc Not direct dino predators, but I've had no luck identifying them, and maybe figuring out their relation (if any) to dino deaths with "green tea" would be easier with an ID. |
02/23/2016, 12:53 AM | #3181 |
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I think it looks like a common ciliate protist: paramecium caudatum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium_caudatum
we can go to class: I prefer this class:
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02/23/2016, 12:57 AM | #3182 |
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has anyone looked at the phyto they feed under a microscope?
Maybe it's not the phyto alone, but the protists that are cultured along side them unintentionally that end up killing the dinos? Maybe home cultured phyto and home cultured "green water" are related in the ciliates that live there?
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02/23/2016, 01:27 AM | #3183 |
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Feeding by heterotrophic protists and copepods on the photosynthetic dinoflagellate Azadinium cf. poporum from Western Korean waters
https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Korean_waters
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02/23/2016, 11:18 AM | #3184 | |
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Yes, I keep mine fairly pure
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02/23/2016, 06:14 PM | #3185 |
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No contaminating ciliates?
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02/23/2016, 09:20 PM | #3186 | |
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Given that you haven't reported precipitates in your system or your sand bed turning to concrete, the only other sink for all the missing calcium that I can think of would be biological... Are you still getting the dusting of tiny shells and calcareous debris you previously reported, or the barely visible haze in the water that you thought might be coccolithophores? Biological calcification has evolved again and again in algae because the following chemical reactions tie the calcium cycle to photosynthesis, allowing primary producers to alleviate CO2 limitation... calcification (requires an alkaline environment) Ca2+ + CO2 + H2O ----> CaCO3 + 2 H+ bicarbonate conversion (requires an acidic environment) 2 H+ + 2 HCO3- ----> 2 CO2 + 2 H2O photosynthesis ("CH2O" represents sugar) CO2 + H2O ----> CH2O + O2 combine the above 3 reactions and the CO2, H2O, and H+ all cancel out Ca2+ + 2 HCO3- ----> CaCO3 + CH2O + O2 There are dinos that can calcify, but they only seem to do it on special occasions -- some pelagic dinos can form calcareous dormant forms that seem to be their version of the cysts formed by benthic and shallow water coastal species, and some cyst-forming species form calcareous cysts. In both cases, the point of the exercise seems to be to up-armor the dinos when they're dormant and unable to flee or defend themselves. But generally speaking, dinos aren't calcifying organisms, which means that they must be escaping CO2 limitation by using bicarbonate for photosynthesis: H+ + HCO3- ----> CH2O + O2 Trouble is, the H+ required for this normally comes from H2O or HCO3- which leads to surplus OH- and CO3- and rising pH. And of course, drawing down CO2 levels raises alk by triggering the dissociation of HCO3- into OH- and CO2 as the system maintains carbonate equilibrium. My guess is that the dinos are creating a high-alk microenvironment around them which favors calcification, and judging by the amount of calcium you're pumping into your system and the tiny shells you're seeing, there are organisms taking advantage of it. When you draw down alk far enough, you put this part of the dinoflagellate holobiont out of business. Without calcification reactions releasing protons (H+ ions), the dinos lose a major source of protons for bicarbonate photosynthesis and must rely more on CO2, limiting their growth. Interestingly, even though photosynthesis creates the high pH conditions, calcification has been observed to persist in reef sands in the wild for up to 7 hours after photosynthesis ceased due to darkness. In the morning, it only took about an hour for the chemistry in the surface layer of the sand to tip back to an alkaline environment favoring calcification. |
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02/24/2016, 12:56 AM | #3187 |
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Just to avoid possible confusion in the photosynthesis equation you gave, CH2O is formaldehyde, but it's a simple carbohydrate that works for a general explanation, but I am not sure that's what photosynthesis typically generates.
Dinoflagellates generally don't affect the alkalinity appreciably because they don't calcify in most case, as you stated. They will consume a bit temporarily if they take up carbonate or bicarbonate as a carbon source, but the alkalinity is released after the carbon is taken. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php#6
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02/24/2016, 06:16 AM | #3188 |
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file this under theories that connect dots.
Vitamin B12, Cyanobacteria, Cobalt, and Dinos. Dinos are needy (auxotrophic). One crucial thing that Dinos can't make for themselves, but are dependent on is vitamin B12. "the vitamin B1, B7, and B12 requirements of 41 strains of 27 HAB[harmful algae bloom] species (19 dinoflagellates) were investigated. All but one species (two strains) of harmful algae surveyed required vitamin B12." The one species in the study that doesn't: symbiodinium! B12 levels have also been shown to correlate with dino bloom events and B12 depletion with the end of blooms, Dinos are in competition for B12 with most of the rest of the algae kingdom too: "many algae are rich in vitamin B12, with some species, such as Porphyra yezoensis (Nori), containing as much cobalamin as liver" So where does this vitamin B12 come from? It's rare, breaks down in sunlight, is needed by eukaryotes, but only prokaryotes make it, which makes it quite a valuable commodity. One of the most important producers of B12 - you guessed it - cyanobacteria. "the cyanobacterial contribution to the oceanic B12 supply may be ~ 50 times higher than the contribution of heterotrophic bacteria." And to make B12, you have to have Cobalt. In some areas of the open ocean, Co has been found to limit the production of B12. Cobalt is also contained in soil, and in our salt mixes - 6 of 9 salt mixes tested above the detection limit which was significantly higher than NSW concentration of Cobalt.
on a separate note - I turned off my skimmer 3 days ago, and I've looked through the microscope for hours and taken samples from all over my system: water column, deep dino territory, on the margins, healthy sand, all varieties of skimmer mixes etc. I have not seen any microscopic dino grazers - or any evidence of them. I see live dinos and dead dinos, but no microlife eating dinos. (I am aware that the presence of some bacteria can make dinos stop functioning, and I wouldn't be able to see that.) I was really hoping to find an oxyrrhis or gyrodinium munching on some amphidinium. nothin. |
02/24/2016, 07:06 AM | #3189 |
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I feed a lot of nori. About 4 full size sheets per day.
My ATS grows nice and thick though, with some patches of cyano here and there. No dinos though (still running nighttime UV).
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02/24/2016, 03:55 PM | #3190 |
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I do have high amounts of small floating particles, but those are mix of various decaying matters that have clumped up and would sink to the deep in the ocean as marine snow, but we have skimmers acting as one. A good portion is highly reflective indicating it's calcium based. There is no doubt that there is calcareous matter on the lose, but I can't tell for sure if it's my sandbed breaking down into ever smaller pieces or something forming in my tank. Many had shapes though that could hardly be caused with erosion. Not rounded, but stick like etc.
Some reefers with ostis report Calcium levels at 450 while myself and a friend have constant low levels. I introduced the Coccolithophores to the readers of this thread a couple of years ago, but nobody seemed to be interested. They are a major player in the bloom business and it would be silly to think they are not present in all reef tanks. How one estimates the amount in our small tanks is not easy and then try to figure out how much is normal. Nobody ever talks about them in these forums and even though diatoms, another big player get's spotted in our microscope I don't recall anyone having dino and diatom blooms at the same time. Role in the food web Coccolithophores are one of the more abundant primary producers in the ocean. As such, they are a large contributor to the primary productivity of the tropical and subtropical oceans, however, exactly how much has yet to have been recorded. Dependence on nutrients The ratio between the concentrations of nitrogen, phosphorus and silicate in particular areas of the ocean dictates competitive dominance within phytoplankton communities. Each ratio essentially tips the odds in favor of either diatoms or more other groups of phytoplankton, such as coccolithophores. A low silicate to nitrogen and phosphorus ratio allows coccolithophores to outcompete other phytoplankton species; however, when silicate to phosphorus to nitrogen ratios are high coccolithophores are outcompeted by diatoms. The increase in agricultural processes lead to eutrophication of waters and thus, coccolithophore blooms in these high nitrogen and phosphorus, low silicate environments. Predator-prey interactions Their predators include the common predators of all phytoplankton including small fish, zooplankton, and shellfish larvae. Viruses specific to this species have been isolated from several locations worldwide and appear to play a major role in spring bloom dynamics. Last edited by DNA; 02/24/2016 at 04:01 PM. |
02/24/2016, 09:39 PM | #3191 | ||||||||||
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This is another way to write the equation for photosynthesis: 6 CO2 + 6 H2O ----> C6H12O6 + 6 O2 The product is glucose, the most common plant sugar. Divide everything by 6 and you get: CO2 + H2O ----> CH2O + O2 Quote:
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HCO3- + H2O ----> H2CO3 + OH- ----> CO2 + H2O + OH- ----> CH2O + O2 + OH- Subtract the OH- common to each step... HCO3- + H+ ----> H2CO3 ----> CO2 + H2O ----> CH2O + O2 Skip the intermediate steps and you get the simplified equation I originally gave... Quote:
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Skimmers collect and concentrate coral mucus and other detritus, so maybe they support a micro-ecosystem dominated by secondary producers that's biologically distinct from the dino holobiont. Like a wildlife refuge surrounded by farmland -- take it away, and the creatures that were living there don't have anywhere to go. -- Quote:
I recently stumbled across a hint that the heterotrophic species oxyrrhis marina prefer eating armored E. huxleyi cocos to naked E. hux. Weird, eh? Maybe naked cocos have more effective chemical defenses. Unfortunately, it's just a reference to a paper that doesn't seem to be online anywhere, so I don't know that it's true or why it might be so. |
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02/24/2016, 11:56 PM | #3192 | ||||
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From: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry The definition of total alkalinity: TA = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--] + [B(OH)4-] + [OH-] + [Si(OH)3O-] + [MgOH+] + [HPO4--] + 2[PO4---] - [H+]
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02/25/2016, 04:27 AM | #3193 |
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Total black out . I will do it for 3 days , sick and tired to fight Dino or whatever it was!
Cheers, MD
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02/25/2016, 07:42 AM | #3194 |
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Regarding coccos, I can think of a couple of observations that might show weak evidence for them in my tank.
My water is completely clear under normal light, but under blacklight it's hazy. This kind of scattering indicates particles at least the size of the wavelength of light 375nm, so ~.4 microns and large. Additionally they must be strongly fluorescent to be visible under UV blacklight. Calcium carbonate is, as is paper, and a million other things. Additionally if I skim dry and put vinegar on the dry skimmate scum and get bubbles, would that indicate CaCO3? Haven't tried it. Now to the part that strongly suggests I have virtually no cocco activity in my tank - or at least I didn't for months. My calcium tested around 485 (+- 15) And my alk at dkh 10 (+-1) (Mg high too) ...consistently in test after test for like 4 months despite no additions of any of those. Having said all that, I'm still grasping at the suggested connection between coccos and dinos. Do we think they are competitors? are the coccos dino food? Does the presence of one indicate water parameters unfriendly to the other? |
02/25/2016, 12:23 PM | #3195 | |
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Here is what skimmate consists of. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/ With the haze it's a matter of reference or contrast. During the day there is no or poor blackpoint. The background is bright. A very bright beam from a LED flashlight to an unlit tank will bring out the best in tank viewing for particles. We have all mixed salt to RO water so we know how much stuff goes in there and that a slight haze is normal. I've dived on the reef and most of the longer bandwidths are gone at 15 feet. (5 meters). For a reference here is a healthy tank measuring that and you can see how the corals in the back all look cyan. https://youtu.be/2pxTBHtnl-s?t=359 I don't know how if we can or should try to eyeball the coccos, but I'd welcome them or the diatoms if it would lead to the demise of the dinos. Coccos are around 10 times smaller than dinos so they will not be eating them alive, but their blooms are massive and they block sunlight. When these organisms die off they break down and will become a feast despite of armor or toxicity. I just read through local shellfish monitoring logs. What they do is simply taking a sample from the water column and measuring densities. This will govern if they rule shellfish from the area edible or not. I also found out for the first time that diatoms can also cause shellfish poisoning. |
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02/25/2016, 04:02 PM | #3196 |
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Good points on the light scattering in water.
This article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature about the contents of skimmate covers a lot of similar territory. It concludes 44% of insoluble dried skimmate was CaCO3, but because the system was running a calcium reactor, the article just says it could be forams, coccos, or particles ejected from the reactor. Since I don't run a reactor, haven't added new salt mix in weeks, have large grained sand, I'd conclude that most anything calcium carbonate in my skimmate was from coccos or forams. |
02/26/2016, 07:42 AM | #3197 |
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A point on the "dirty" method that I haven't seen discussed much:
If elevated N and P are the definition of "dirty" then it may be harder to do than people think. Putting in 5x the food as normal and turning off skimming and exporting nothing for weeks - P was up (.16) but my nitrates were still undetectable. So I dosed nitrates in addition to heavy feeding no skimming no export, green film took off for a couple of days, then slowed. So of course tests showed nitrates up (20+ppm) but phosphates as low as they've ever tested in my tank (.039) I guess one takeaway is that in my tank at least the dinos did not particularly seem to care whether the tank was N limited, P available or P limited, N available. No significant difference when the tank was in either condition for over a week. |
02/26/2016, 09:07 AM | #3198 |
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02/26/2016, 09:07 AM | #3199 |
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It's stuck to my curved bubble wand
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02/26/2016, 10:33 AM | #3200 | |
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