Putting Matrix to the test now that Marinepure is out

[Roggio]

After Marinepure was confirmed to release Aluminum by Ryan at BRS I decided to put Seachem's Matrix to the test. There's tons of great reviews out there that claim Nitrates dropped in less than a week at times. While I don't think this will be the case I decided to run my own experiment.

The tank will run with no additives, just top off water. No filtration, only a heater to keep the tank at 80 degree. (The warmer temp helps breed bacteria)

I originally planned on adding two small clowns to keep a constant flow of ammonia (and I might later) but I feel the nitrite is too high. This isnt a real enough experiment to risk any little guys.
___________

Tank background

The tank ran as a temporary holding tank while I was moving my fish around. In that time the Ammonia skyrocketed and the fish were pulled out. Since then it has just been cycling for almost two months. The tank has two MP40's to ensure flow and proper gas exchange.

Seachem recommends two liters per 200 gallons. I will be running 20 liters inside media bags. the tank has roughly 100 gallons of water in it.

http://www.seachem.com/pond-matrix.php

Ammonia 0

Nitrite >1

Nitrate >50

(Red Sea)







If anyone has any input or ideas I would love to hear it! It's temping to add a carbon source to feed the bacteria.

[homer1475]

Where was this confirmed?

I've been running 2 blocks in my sump since startup(just over a year now) and my last triton test about a month ago showed 0 aluminum.

To my knowledge the cheap knockoffs sold on amazon or fleabay is what people were finding aluminum in. Actual MP was safe.

Come to think of it, they put a whole shed ton of MP in the BRS 160.

I've used the matrix in my nano. One is a man made product(marine pure), the other is basically rubble rock(matrix). They is no comparison in the amount of surface area for bacteria to populate, Marine pure wins in that area hands down. Also Matrix isn't large enough to hold large anoxic zones for the bacteria that converts nitrates to nitrogen gas, unlike marine pure blocks that was designed just for that purpose.

[Diana A]

Which video was this in? I could not find it. They did do a test see the results of nitrate reduction

[MiddletoM]

my system is perfectly fine with my MP block, been in there for over a year now.

[bertoni]

I've never seen any studies of Marine Pure vs other media. Do you have a pointer? Marine Pure probably will leach some aluminum, although that's not always a problems. I don't trust Triton tests for trace elements. There's a study that shows problems with such parameter, if you'd like to do some reading.

Matrix might have less surface area than Marine Pure, or be less efficient per unit volume, but it does seem to work. Both effectively are artificial live rock. It'd be interesting to try some sort of experiment to determine efficiency, but it'd be a lot of work.

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by homer1475

Where was this confirmed?

I've been running 2 blocks in my sump since startup(just over a year now) and my last triton test about a month ago showed 0 aluminum.

To my knowledge the cheap knockoffs sold on amazon or fleabay is what people were finding aluminum in. Actual MP was safe.

Come to think of it, they put a whole shed ton of MP in the BRS 160.

I've used the matrix in my nano. One is a man made product(marine pure), the other is basically rubble rock(matrix). They is no comparison in the amount of surface area for bacteria to populate, Marine pure wins in that area hands down. Also Matrix isn't large enough to hold large anoxic zones for the bacteria that converts nitrates to nitrogen gas, unlike marine pure blocks that was designed just for that purpose.

https://www.*********.com/threads/i....4#post-3803880 HMMMM I guess youre going to have to google the double reef forum is-marine-pure-effective-at-reducing-nitrates-we-learn-some-valuable-lessons-brstv-investigates It's post number 77

Here's the link

They removed all the Marinepure from the BRS 160. That being said I don't plan on removing mine. Maybe your test shows 0 because of water changes and the slime coat the marinepure develops?

There is a comparison especially when you consider price. You can fit a lot of matrix into a media bag and put it into places marinepure could not go. According to the Seachem the flow over this media does not matter. Matrix and especially pond matrix are certainly large enough to create anoxic zones. They are made to harbor denitrifying bacteria. Can you back up your claims? There's a tremendous amount of testimonies that claim they do. This product has been around for quite some time.

A final note when comparing is the Matrix is not brittle, it can be used in media bags, high flow areas while still harboring denitrifying bacteria, it's natural, it costs a lot less. These all make it an option worth looking into IMO.

Originally Posted by Diana A

Which video was this in? I could not find it. They did do a test see the results of nitrate reduction

They released it on the link above. They ran a Investigation on the Marinepure in a video but decided to re do the test. That video hasnt been released yet.

Originally Posted by MiddletoM

my system is perfectly fine with my MP block, been in there for over a year now.

Mine is running well after about 3 weeks with spheres and the block. I don't like the claim the company makes about not releasing anything into the water. People have a lot of time and money tied into their reef. A simple inexpensive quality control test would have shown this. They could have included instructions to cure the media before putting it into your tank. Please see the Matrix advantages above.

Originally Posted by bertoni

I've never seen any studies of Marine Pure vs other media. Do you have a pointer? Marine Pure probably will leach some aluminum, although that's not always a problems. I don't trust Triton tests for trace elements. There's a study that shows problems with such parameter, if you'd like to do some reading.

Matrix might have less surface area than Marine Pure, or be less efficient per unit volume, but it does seem to work. Both effectively are artificial live rock. It'd be interesting to try some sort of experiment to determine efficiency, but it'd be a lot of work.

Has it worked for you? I have read a lot of positive results. I honestly dont expect this product to live up to the hype (I didn't expect that of Marinepure also) but it's well worth looking into. I believe Matrix has some major benefits over Marinepure (listed above).

Yeah, maybe BRS will do something in the future. I believe they work on the same concept. Once we know they both work I think a lot of other factors come into play such as cost and flow rate. One of the disadvantages of the block is it must go in a low flow or passive zone.

I have also been reading about a lot of SPS dominant tanks that use a lot of Matrix.

[tmz]

I've used Seachem matrix in some of my systems for years without trouble. It's just very porous pebbles which afford extra surface areas including low flow areas conducive to anerobic activity. I wouldn't expect drastic quick reductions in NO2 or NO3;though ,overtime it seems to be useful .

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by tmz

I've used Seachem matrix in some of my systems for years without trouble. It's just very porous pebbles which afford extra surface areas including low flow areas conducive to anerobic activity. I wouldn't expect drastic quick reductions in NO2 or NO3;though ,overtime it seems to be useful .

I'm currently running 4L of matrix and 4L of pond matrix in my new system. I have most of it in large media bags and then a large amount in a low flow area of my sump with a marinepure block. It has only been there a few days. I'm hoping with time and the low flow of oxygen denitrifying bacteria will flourish. This should hopefully be similar to running a DSB. I dose ZeoBak to this zone regularly to hopefully speed up the process.

I'm also not expecting major results. Maybe after a period of time I will need to add a variable to the mix such as carbon.

[Potatohead]

Matrix is quite literally cleaned pumice. It works great, I have used it for years. I do use it in combination with NoPox.

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by Potatohead

Matrix is quite literally cleaned pumice. It works great, I have used it for years. I do use it in combination with NoPox.

Seachem none surprisingly deny this. I have read a lot about it and considered just heading to Home Depot and grabbing some bags.

Here's their claims
http://www.seachem.com/support/forum...trix-vs-pumice

In the end I decided to just spend the extra money. With as much as I have tied into my reef the money is worth the piece of mind. I have also read so many positive reports on how well it works. If it lives up to half the claims it's well worth the money.

I hear good things about NoPox. I think a lot of the bad reports are people starting with off the charts nitrates. I think you should get your nitrates down to a reasonable level before implementing something as strong as NOPOX or Biopellets or ramp the product up slowly.

[Potatohead]

I doubt Seachem is lying, it may be something else or they may be arguing sematics, but I don't really care, it does seem to work. It certainly looks and feels like pumice and it seems a natural product since the shape, size and color varies a lot.

NoPox is a good product but I think Red Sea's instructions perhaps are too aggressive. I have never dosed the levels they recommend, usually about half and my nitrate is currently in the 3-5 range. It sits between 15-20 when I don't carbon dose, for reference.

[Scott H.]

Originally Posted by homer1475

Where was this confirmed?

I've been running 2 blocks in my sump since startup(just over a year now) and my last triton test about a month ago showed 0 aluminum.

To my knowledge the cheap knockoffs sold on amazon or fleabay is what people were finding aluminum in. Actual MP was safe.

Come to think of it, they put a whole shed ton of MP in the BRS 160.

I've used the matrix in my nano. One is a man made product(marine pure), the other is basically rubble rock(matrix). They is no comparison in the amount of surface area for bacteria to populate, Marine pure wins in that area hands down. Also Matrix isn't large enough to hold large anoxic zones for the bacteria that converts nitrates to nitrogen gas, unlike marine pure blocks that was designed just for that purpose.

BRS removed them in a later issue and did a 100% water change for an unknown issue.

I have 2 big blocks in each of my two systems. 6 blocks total, and all purchased from BRS. They did create problems and kill a few softies. Toadstool, Kenya tree, and almost my neon green spaghetti leather. It took me a bit to figure it out. I'd do a big water change, things would look better for a few weeks and back again. Repeat. My last pair of blocks I put in have been going for 7 months with lots of 20% weekly water changes back to back. These Triton results were back to me last week. 2 days after another 25% water change. I do feel they slow down leaching. Obviously your results show that which I'm glad. Now that I'm not changing water using the Triton method I fear I may have to pull them. I'm not wanting to because they have been going from day one.

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by Scott H.

BRS removed them in a later issue and did a 100% water change for an unknown issue.

I have 2 big blocks in each of my two systems. 6 blocks total, and all purchased from BRS. They did create problems and kill a few softies. Toadstool, Kenya tree, and almost my neon green spaghetti leather. It took me a bit to figure it out. I'd do a big water change, things would look better for a few weeks and back again. Repeat. My last pair of blocks I put in have been going for 7 months with lots of 20% weekly water changes back to back. These Triton results were back to me last week. 2 days after another 25% water change. I do feel they slow down leaching. Obviously your results show that which I'm glad. Now that I'm not changing water using the Triton method I fear I may have to pull them. I'm not wanting to because they have been going from day one.

Jesus, that's a lot of money. Considering the price of blocks, salt, and the time it takes to investigate and change water. I'd be upset. If you do change them it's going to be a process too. You will have to do it slowly and maybe seed some replacement media depending on your bio load and current surface area.

I'm guessing you saw positive results as far as nutrients since you bought so many?

Also, I thought the water change was because Ryan left the dosing pumps running overnight.

[Scott H.]

Originally Posted by Blatzphemy

Jesus, that's a lot of money. Considering the price of blocks, salt, and the time it takes to investigate and change water. I'd be upset. If you do change them it's going to be a process too. You will have to do it slowly and maybe seed some replacement media depending on your bio load and current surface area.

I'm guessing you saw positive results as far as nutrients since you bought so many?

Also, I thought the water change was because Ryan left the dosing pumps running overnight.

Yeah, I don't think this is intentional by anyone involved. I have roughly $400 into blocks, which I may end up throwing the last 2 in the trash. The older ones aren't a problem visually with the corals.
I really want to eliminate the newest two, but it's not that simple. The newest tank, the one I'm doing Triton with, has 41 high end frags in. Levels nice and stable, so I'm trying to get through it.

I was sold on the blocks at one point. Really sold,.. I still am, the AL is just an unintentional side effect. When I started out, like all over excited new people, I put too many fish into too small of tank. Then they grew. My eel got full grown also. With the help of the blocks I seen my nitrates go from 60ish to 10ish. The system now is well mature, and after two years of the blocks (and even bigger fish) they've come back up to about 38. But algae isn't a problem anymore so the numbers don't matter really.

On my 7 mo old tank I'm scared to pull them. Other then skirting yellow in the test I have no reason to do water changes either. Time and test results will tell I guess.

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by Scott H.

Yeah, I don't think this is intentional by anyone involved. I have roughly $400 into blocks, which I may end up throwing the last 2 in the trash. The older ones aren't a problem visually with the corals.
I really want to eliminate the newest two, but it's not that simple. The newest tank, the one I'm doing Triton with, has 41 high end frags in. Levels nice and stable, so I'm trying to get through it.

I was sold on the blocks at one point. Really sold,.. I still am, the AL is just an unintentional side effect. When I started out, like all over excited new people, I put too many fish into too small of tank. Then they grew. My eel got full grown also. With the help of the blocks I seen my nitrates go from 60ish to 10ish. The system now is well mature, and after two years of the blocks (and even bigger fish) they've come back up to about 38. But algae isn't a problem anymore so the numbers don't matter really.

On my 7 mo old tank I'm scared to pull them. Other then skirting yellow in the test I have no reason to do water changes either. Time and test results will tell I guess.

Back to 38! How do your corals look? never mind the algae! Do you carbon dose? I have two huge Zebra Moray eels in my 250 and strive to keep my nitrates under ~5. I have been able to achieve that with carbon and bacteria dosing coupled with the addition of lots of biomedia. My system has only been cycling for a month now.

Maybe you can get some kind of refund for the Marinepure. They claimed it didnt leach anything. Only seems fair after such a huge investment.

You also might want to try running Poly Filters and GFO. They will both absorb metals.

[Scott H.]

Originally Posted by Blatzphemy

Back to 38! How do your corals look? never mind the algae! Do you carbon dose? I have two huge Zebra Moray eels in my 250 and strive to keep my nitrates under ~5. I have been able to achieve that with carbon and bacteria dosing coupled with the addition of lots of biomedia. My system has only been cycling for a month now.

Maybe you can get some kind of refund for the Marinepure. They claimed it didnt leach anything. Only seems fair after such a huge investment.

You also might want to try running Poly Filters and GFO. They will both absorb metals.

I tried the poly filters, didn't work. I can't run gfo because it easily strips the water of phosphate in 3 days and effects the corals negatively. In fact I have reactors on all 3 of my systems and don't use it at all anymore. Its all about balance. I'm a fan of the redfield ratio. I'm not a fan of fancy label products. My corals are great, in fact the wife was just complaining about me needing to trim some. No algae, no issues anymore. The corals out compete the bad stuff and its pretty self sufficient bacteria wise.

With your system being new, especially if you didn't use live rock to start you're going to go through an ugly phase. Its just the way it is. Don't fight it. As long as you keep on on your husbandry practices, a few snails, it will all work out. A lot of time "over the counter" products lead to other problems. If I remember correctly you don't have a sump? Or maybe you are referring to another tank. If I could do things again I'd have even bigger sumps. The extra space and water volume make a big difference. Having them plumbed to the basement so I have room to work was the best decision ever!

I wish now I had went with Zebras. They don't get as big. They seem to stay calm too. I really like my eel, but it has been challenging accommodating her, her appetite, digging, and knocking over rocks! Very neat animals though

[Roggio]

So it's been 24 hours and the water is visibly more clear. Prior to adding the rocks the substrate had not been disturbed.


I went ahead and tested the levels because the water was looking so clear and we're still looking at the same values.

[Roggio]

Originally Posted by Scott H.

I tried the poly filters, didn't work. I can't run gfo because it easily strips the water of phosphate in 3 days and effects the corals negatively. In fact I have reactors on all 3 of my systems and don't use it at all anymore. Its all about balance. I'm a fan of the redfield ratio. I'm not a fan of fancy label products. My corals are great, in fact the wife was just complaining about me needing to trim some. No algae, no issues anymore. The corals out compete the bad stuff and its pretty self sufficient bacteria wise.

With your system being new, especially if you didn't use live rock to start you're going to go through an ugly phase. Its just the way it is. Don't fight it. As long as you keep on on your husbandry practices, a few snails, it will all work out. A lot of time "over the counter" products lead to other problems. If I remember correctly you don't have a sump? Or maybe you are referring to another tank. If I could do things again I'd have even bigger sumps. The extra space and water volume make a big difference. Having them plumbed to the basement so I have room to work was the best decision ever!

I wish now I had went with Zebras. They don't get as big. They seem to stay calm too. I really like my eel, but it has been challenging accommodating her, her appetite, digging, and knocking over rocks! Very neat animals though

Here's a picture of my current tank. I was forced to add a lot of fish right away (my old system had to be reworked in a hurry because mangrove roots busted the PVC structure). There's a 200 gallon sump and a 60 gallon refugium currently running on this system. I'm already starting to see some white tips coming off of my bird of paradise.


The reef is plumbed to the sump from the other side of the wall but it's just cycling with no filtration running. I wish I had a basement or a place I could have connected my tank to an outside wall. I'm stuck with the space under my tanks. I'm currently setting up a saltwater mixing station remotely that will also send the top off water through the attic in order to save space.

I agree with you about the ratio. I battled nitrates for awhile to no avail awhile ago. I didn't see a drop until I realized my 0 phosphates was a factor.

My Zebra's are extremely well behaved unless youre messing with their rock. It's an experience trying to glue a coral to a rock while fighting off two eels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ROwa5WmyQI

[Roggio]

[Scott H.]

Dang, very nice. Those fish are huge! You're obviously doing something right battling that bioload.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Blatzphemy

Seachem none surprisingly deny this. I have read a lot about it and considered just heading to Home Depot and grabbing some bags.

Here's their claims
http://www.seachem.com/support/forum...trix-vs-pumice

In the end I decided to just spend the extra money. With as much as I have tied into my reef the money is worth the piece of mind. I have also read so many positive reports on how well it works. If it lives up to half the claims it's well worth the money.

I hear good things about NoPox. I think a lot of the bad reports are people starting with off the charts nitrates. I think you should get your nitrates down to a reasonable level before implementing something as strong as NOPOX or Biopellets or ramp the product up slowly.

I do not see Seachem denying it's pumice stone. I just read all that as Seachem saying their (pumice) stone is better because they claim to know the source of the stone is safe for our tanks and inspected (somehow) to be a better pore size vs buying cheap unknown pumice stone from a garden store.

Which knowing the source could help reduce the chance of unwanted elements.

[Roggio]

On a whim tonight I decided to test the tank. I cannot believe the results. I tested twice and I'm racking my brain to try and figure out how this happened. I will go into a detailed list of everything I did because in less than a week I was successful. By no means was my test proper controlled test and other variables could have come into play. As much as I don't want to believe it... the Pond Matrix was a key component.







The results speak for themselves. Incase it's hard to see the Nitrates are around 5 or less.

Here's a list of everything that happened with this tank.

Tank cleaned with vinegar
Sand added from an old tank
Added a few pieces of rock
sand treated with a little Biomate, Zeobak and Zeozym.
without testing I added ammonia and a bottle of Bio-Spira.
I continued to add ammonia daily until the bacteria was able to drop it to zero within 24 hours.
Phosphates and Nitrates remained off the charts
tank sat roughly for a month or longer
Phosphates and Nitrates were still off the charts when I added 20L of Pond Matrix and a little Bio-Spira I had left in the bottle.
Prior to adding the Pond Matrix the sand still had a brownish tint to it and the water was cloudy (see first pic)
After adding the media the water was noticeably clearer within 24 hours
Despite the high phosphates/Nitrates I decided to add the clown as a small source of ammonia. I watched them closely for any signs of distress.
I believe in the Redfield Ratio and thought the addition of a small ammonia source would be helpful over what I thought would be weeks of cycling.

5 days later these are my results... I almost feel foolish posting them. Without a doubt the Pond Matrix served as a surface to grow bacteria. Denitrifying bacteria was able to form and consume the nitrates. I don't think this means Matrix is the Holy Grail of keeping your nutrients in check but it definitely worked in my application.

IMO this is part of a inexpensive system to control nutrients. If you combine bio media with some kind of carbon source you will see the best results.

I will leave the tank as is for a little longer and continue to test ... stay tuned!

[tmz]

Looks like it's moving in the right direction. That's the same size matrix I use ;though as it happens not in the main system where there is an abundance of live rock in cryptic refugia.

...The patented mix of Nitrococcus, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira ... from the Bio-Spira manufacturer's product description.

Assuming arguendo that they are viable, I think those are all chemoautorphic oxidizer's for nitrification and denitrification. Organic carbon would encourage heterotrophs which would compete with them for nitrogen and may not be needed or desired at this stage, IMO.

[Roggio]

I've added them to my main system. I'm hoping this will lead to less of a demand for vodka dosing. I'm getting really bad cyno in my refugium (common side affect of vodka dosing). There's a lot of flow with an MP10. Maybe it's the horticulture lights.

[tmz]

The extra surface area may help denitirification with or without vodka dosing;the heterotrophs will also benefit from places to grow but their relatively large biomass may clog things up .
Matrix won't do much for phosphate reduction like carbon dosing will though. IME, the cyano is a start up issue over the first month or two with ethanol dosing and vinegar dosing .