Clownfish HOLE in stomach?? - Page 2

kewwlkat123 · 12/11/2008, 11:40 AM

Interesting theory. I have no idea. I think a scientist or biology major with some experience dissecting fish would need to chime in to confirm that.

m0nk · 12/11/2008, 11:41 AM

Wow, I was thinking tumor too when I saw your posts showing it growing. It's really disturbing, seeing that slimy round thing that fell off. Hope the fish stays healthy now that it's gone.

JHemdal · 12/11/2008, 11:43 AM

tufacody,

+1 That's exactly what I thought. I have removed egg masses from other female fish that did the same thing - broke right through the body wall. It is almost like the egg mass had turned to amber. The only problem is that the masses that I've seen before had all been a bit further back on the fish's body, but not all that much. Everything else is nearly identical, down to the way the lesion first starts up. Perhaps in this clownfish, there was some physical reason why the egg mass was pushed forward? If it was a tumor, you'd expect to see some vascularization involved. It isn't a parasite, but it could *possibly* be a sterile abscess of some sort - did you try cutting the mass open?

Jay

ahh, I do need to add that this has always been fatal to the fish I've seen it in.

kewwlkat123 · 12/11/2008, 11:53 AM

I have the tumor/egg mass in a baggie just in case I needed it for further examination. Although, it is starting to dry out as I didn't put any water inside. I will cut it open when I get home. Anything in particular I'm looking for or will notice?

Thanks for chiming in with your knowledge Jay.

JHemdal · 12/11/2008, 12:02 PM

Look for blood vessels inside - that would indicate a tumor to me. Using a magnifying glass, look at the tissue and see if it shows any hint of eggs, or shapes of eggs stuck together. Remember that eggs start off small inside the female, so don't expect the eggs to be the size they are when they are laid. The "nose test" might tell you if the mass is a bacterial abscess or not.

I've never actually seen this in clownfish, but I have seen it in Banggai cardinalfish and Haplochromis cichlids.

Jay

magellan007 · 12/11/2008, 03:10 PM

I'd like to know what you find, too. Really bizarre in the worst of ways. I hope she recovers and that doesn't happen again.

magellan007 · 12/12/2008, 11:21 AM

any update on this??

mikejones · 12/12/2008, 12:49 PM

interesting thread......... bumps for the update.........

Slakker · 12/12/2008, 01:05 PM

I was just about to go eat lunch...but now I think maybe I'll wait a while...

kewwlkat123 · 12/12/2008, 10:58 PM

Sorry about ruining your lunch. I know the feeling.

Here's the update I've been promising and you've been asking for.

She is still okay in her container. She is still eating some. The hole is closed up with the flake looking bacteria. It's not as bad as it was in the past pictures but it's starting to protrude/bulge beyond her scales.

Here's a picture of the tumor or eggs (not sure) cut in half. Chocolate brownies for anyone?

I didn't see anything that resembled eggs but I'm not sure what the early stage of eggs clustered together would look like. I'll have to find a magnifying glass or buy one tomorrow. Maybe one of you will recognize something I do not.

kewwlkat123 · 12/13/2008, 05:49 PM

Unfortunately late last night she wasn't doing well. She lied on her side. Her conditions gradually got worse within 12 hours time and she has now passed.

I figured this would happen so it didn't come to a surprise.

Thanks for everyone's participation and help diagnosing. If you have any other information you are still welcome to reply.

-Tyson

skippy2 · 12/13/2008, 07:38 PM

I am so sorry

I certainly wished I could have helped you.

ChrisKirkland · 12/13/2008, 07:52 PM

Not eggs for sure it looks to be some type of tumor. I have never seen the egg mass get so close to her stomach. Really could have been a birth defect all along and it just showed it's self now. Because the clowns eggs are general held and made towards the center of the body it probably was not that. I am sorry for your loss, was she aquacultured or wild caught?

JHemdal · 12/13/2008, 08:00 PM

Ahhh - Sorry that the fish didn't make it.

That sure does look like an ovary filled with "amberized" eggs to me. I don't see any signs of bacterial infection, nor any blood vessels that might indicate a tumor. I do see *many* tiny dots that are probably unreleased eggs. The color seems right as well. FWIW: as far as I know, there is absolutely nothing you could have done for this fish. A veterinarian might have adminstered an injection of oxytocin to help the fish to try to expell the eggs - but while that may work with mammals, it has no real history of working with fish.

Jay

HaleMoana · 12/13/2008, 08:25 PM

Awe shucks... sorry to hear it. I have been following this thread and was hoping for the best. You did all you could.

tufacody · 12/13/2008, 11:59 PM

Looks like the color and consistency of eggs to me too. Sorry for your loss. Tough to lose a pet.

slojmn · 12/14/2008, 10:41 AM

Sorry to see her die

. You really did the best you could at helping her along the way. Quite an informational thread so thank you very much for sharing and keeping us posted through all of this. Bummer it didn't turn out better.

Slakker · 12/14/2008, 05:01 PM

So sorry to hear that she's passed...as everyone else has said, you did everything you could.

kewwlkat123 · 12/14/2008, 08:29 PM

Thanks for the kind words guys. I thought I really did go out of my way to help her other than taking her to a vet like someone said. Probably not worth making a $30 fish a $100+ after the vet bill.

As far as what it is I'm not sure as I haven't got the magnifying glass yet. But from above one person said tumor and two say ovary with eggs.

The best of luck if anyone else has this problem with their clown or any other fish.

DannyBoy414 · 10/01/2018, 08:11 PM

I am having this problem as we speak. Has anybody ever figured out what it was?

Tyler.L · 10/02/2018, 06:43 AM

well prepare to lose the fish unfortunately

pfan151 · 10/02/2018, 07:32 AM

I had something similar with a flame angel though it was much smaller. I scraped it off with a scalpel down to healthy tissue. It wasn’t too deep on mine. She healed up fine and is still with me today. Doesn’t even have a scar. On my flame it was about the size of a pea sliced in half. May be worth a shot since the alternative seems to be pretty certain death.

12/11/2008, 11:41 AM	#27
m0nk Zen through Reefkeeping Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Camp Hill, Pa Posts: 317	Wow, I was thinking tumor too when I saw your posts showing it growing. It's really disturbing, seeing that slimy round thing that fell off. Hope the fish stays healthy now that it's gone. __________________ Save the reef, buy aquacultured. Better yet, frag and share! Current Tank Info: 30l

12/11/2008, 03:10 PM	#31
magellan007 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: SW OKC Posts: 1,452	I'd like to know what you find, too. Really bizarre in the worst of ways. I hope she recovers and that doesn't happen again. __________________ "It bends like something that's very...bendy." --P. Whitby

12/12/2008, 11:21 AM	#32
magellan007 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: SW OKC Posts: 1,452	any update on this?? __________________ "It bends like something that's very...bendy." --P. Whitby

12/12/2008, 01:05 PM	#34
Slakker Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Southeastern Wisconsin Posts: 4,521	I was just about to go eat lunch...but now I think maybe I'll wait a while... __________________ -Tyler Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house. Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

12/13/2008, 07:38 PM	#37
skippy2 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 3,205	I am so sorry I certainly wished I could have helped you. __________________ Peggy Current Tank Info: no tank

12/11/2008, 11:40 AM	#26
kewwlkat123 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 127	Interesting theory. I have no idea. I think a scientist or biology major with some experience dissecting fish would need to chime in to confirm that.

12/11/2008, 11:43 AM	#28
JHemdal Moved On Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,971	tufacody, +1 That's exactly what I thought. I have removed egg masses from other female fish that did the same thing - broke right through the body wall. It is almost like the egg mass had turned to amber. The only problem is that the masses that I've seen before had all been a bit further back on the fish's body, but not all that much. Everything else is nearly identical, down to the way the lesion first starts up. Perhaps in this clownfish, there was some physical reason why the egg mass was pushed forward? If it was a tumor, you'd expect to see some vascularization involved. It isn't a parasite, but it could possibly be a sterile abscess of some sort - did you try cutting the mass open? Jay ahh, I do need to add that this has always been fatal to the fish I've seen it in.

12/11/2008, 11:53 AM	#29
kewwlkat123 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 127	I have the tumor/egg mass in a baggie just in case I needed it for further examination. Although, it is starting to dry out as I didn't put any water inside. I will cut it open when I get home. Anything in particular I'm looking for or will notice? Thanks for chiming in with your knowledge Jay.

12/11/2008, 12:02 PM	#30
JHemdal Moved On Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,971	Look for blood vessels inside - that would indicate a tumor to me. Using a magnifying glass, look at the tissue and see if it shows any hint of eggs, or shapes of eggs stuck together. Remember that eggs start off small inside the female, so don't expect the eggs to be the size they are when they are laid. The "nose test" might tell you if the mass is a bacterial abscess or not. I've never actually seen this in clownfish, but I have seen it in Banggai cardinalfish and Haplochromis cichlids. Jay

12/12/2008, 12:49 PM	#33
mikejones Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxnard Posts: 714	interesting thread......... bumps for the update.........

12/12/2008, 10:58 PM	#35
kewwlkat123 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 127	Sorry about ruining your lunch. I know the feeling. Here's the update I've been promising and you've been asking for. She is still okay in her container. She is still eating some. The hole is closed up with the flake looking bacteria. It's not as bad as it was in the past pictures but it's starting to protrude/bulge beyond her scales. Here's a picture of the tumor or eggs (not sure) cut in half. Chocolate brownies for anyone? I didn't see anything that resembled eggs but I'm not sure what the early stage of eggs clustered together would look like. I'll have to find a magnifying glass or buy one tomorrow. Maybe one of you will recognize something I do not.

12/13/2008, 05:49 PM	#36
kewwlkat123 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 127	Unfortunately late last night she wasn't doing well. She lied on her side. Her conditions gradually got worse within 12 hours time and she has now passed. I figured this would happen so it didn't come to a surprise. Thanks for everyone's participation and help diagnosing. If you have any other information you are still welcome to reply. -Tyson

12/13/2008, 07:52 PM	#38
ChrisKirkland Reef and Coral Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lexington, Ky. Posts: 1,739	Not eggs for sure it looks to be some type of tumor. I have never seen the egg mass get so close to her stomach. Really could have been a birth defect all along and it just showed it's self now. Because the clowns eggs are general held and made towards the center of the body it probably was not that. I am sorry for your loss, was she aquacultured or wild caught? __________________ Chris Kirkland Reef Nerd. Current Tank Info: Getting back into the hobby.

12/13/2008, 08:00 PM	#39
JHemdal Moved On Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,971	Ahhh - Sorry that the fish didn't make it. That sure does look like an ovary filled with "amberized" eggs to me. I don't see any signs of bacterial infection, nor any blood vessels that might indicate a tumor. I do see many tiny dots that are probably unreleased eggs. The color seems right as well. FWIW: as far as I know, there is absolutely nothing you could have done for this fish. A veterinarian might have adminstered an injection of oxytocin to help the fish to try to expell the eggs - but while that may work with mammals, it has no real history of working with fish. Jay

12/13/2008, 08:25 PM	#40
HaleMoana Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly Burbs Posts: 433	Awe shucks... sorry to hear it. I have been following this thread and was hoping for the best. You did all you could. __________________ HaleMoana = Home of the Ocean - Delaware Valley Reef Club - Current Tank Info: Custom Starphire 220 In Wall Wrasse Retreat

12/13/2008, 11:59 PM	#41
tufacody Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,890	Looks like the color and consistency of eggs to me too. Sorry for your loss. Tough to lose a pet.

12/14/2008, 10:41 AM	#42
slojmn Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Napa, CA. Posts: 4,625	Sorry to see her die . You really did the best you could at helping her along the way. Quite an informational thread so thank you very much for sharing and keeping us posted through all of this. Bummer it didn't turn out better. __________________ Play hard and respect all living beings. Current Tank Info: 120g Starphire Cube, 30g nanoreef

12/14/2008, 05:01 PM	#43
Slakker Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Southeastern Wisconsin Posts: 4,521	So sorry to hear that she's passed...as everyone else has said, you did everything you could. __________________ -Tyler Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house. Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

12/14/2008, 08:29 PM	#44
kewwlkat123 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 127	Thanks for the kind words guys. I thought I really did go out of my way to help her other than taking her to a vet like someone said. Probably not worth making a $30 fish a $100+ after the vet bill. As far as what it is I'm not sure as I haven't got the magnifying glass yet. But from above one person said tumor and two say ovary with eggs. The best of luck if anyone else has this problem with their clown or any other fish.

10/01/2018, 08:11 PM	#45
DannyBoy414 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1	I am having this problem as we speak. Has anybody ever figured out what it was?

10/02/2018, 06:43 AM	#46
Tyler.L Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 405	well prepare to lose the fish unfortunately

10/02/2018, 07:32 AM	#47
pfan151 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL Posts: 1,897	I had something similar with a flame angel though it was much smaller. I scraped it off with a scalpel down to healthy tissue. It wasn’t too deep on mine. She healed up fine and is still with me today. Doesn’t even have a scar. On my flame it was about the size of a pea sliced in half. May be worth a shot since the alternative seems to be pretty certain death.