Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Hey sahin, my pellet reactor is pretty much directly into my skimmer- not completely but close.. my skimmer sits in its own tank which is in line between my settling sump (right after the dt) and main sump. All water from the dt passes through it and the pellet reactor takes up and releases its water from this section along with the skimmer.

Because my tested nutrient levels are low ish (but obviously not 0) and my corals look like they are starved yet I have huge algea buildup I find myself in a bind...
I could easily pull nutrients down lower with vinegar and/or more skimming and/or more reactor flow but that would just knock the corals back even more.. But at the moment I seem to just be feeding nuisance algaes and not the corals.

Matt, with my leds turned down so low and having only 2 150w mh bulbs and 5 t5 bulbs of real significance -2 of which are only blue- I really don't think I am anywhere close to photo saturation....
Do you think I am??
Maybe with starved corals, I am running too much light.. Maybe I'll turn the leds off completely for a while.. Just run the mh and t5..
The time scheduel you describe is pretty much why I do. The leds ramp up and down over about 16 hours but are only at any significant output for about 8 hours. Most of the t5 are only on for about that long as well- maybe ten hours. The pure actinics are on for closer to 13 hours but they are only 24 w pure actinics. I doubt they could stress the corals even if they were on 24/7..
But I really think think the cloudy water algea bloom is my real problem, at the moment.. and I'm not sure how to deal with it..
Maybe a good old fashion diatom filter is needed... I hate using those things, the diatom powder scares me..
I'm going to consider a diatom filter to polish the water but I don't know if it'll really eradicate the floating algea..

[sahin]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Hey sahin, my pellet reactor is pretty much directly into my skimmer- not completely but close.. my skimmer sits in its own tank which is in line between my settling sump (right after the dt) and main sump. All water from the dt passes through it and the pellet reactor takes up and releases its water from this section along with the skimmer.

Because my tested nutrient levels are low ish (but obviously not 0) and my corals look like they are starved yet I have huge algea buildup I find myself in a bind...
I could easily pull nutrients down lower with vinegar and/or more skimming and/or more reactor flow but that would just knock the corals back even more.. But at the moment I seem to just be feeding nuisance algaes and not the corals.

Matt, with my leds turned down so low and having only 2 150w mh bulbs and 5 t5 bulbs of real significance -2 of which are only blue- I really don't think I am anywhere close to photo saturation....
Do you think I am??
Maybe with starved corals, I am running too much light.. Maybe I'll turn the leds off completely for a while.. Just run the mh and t5..
The time scheduel you describe is pretty much why I do. The leds ramp up and down over about 16 hours but are only at any significant output for about 8 hours. Most of the t5 are only on for about that long as well- maybe ten hours. The pure actinics are on for closer to 13 hours but they are only 24 w pure actinics. I doubt they could stress the corals even if they were on 24/7..
But I really think think the cloudy water algea bloom is my real problem, at the moment.. and I'm not sure how to deal with it..
Maybe a good old fashion diatom filter is needed... I hate using those things, the diatom powder scares me..
I'm going to consider a diatom filter to polish the water but I don't know if it'll really eradicate the floating algea..

Matt, this is what I think:

1. A lot of damage will occur to the Acros, WAY before you even deal with the algae by reducing nutrients any further. IME many algaes can exist in VERY LOW NUTRIENT systems and for these algae issues reducing nutrients wont get rid of the algae. Manual and biological control or direct approach like Kent Mg is needed.

2. At the moment you mention rampant Cyano in your tank. IMO you MAY need to reduce the amount of pellets; however given that it is early days yet, maybe give the tank a week or two more. Like with vodka dosing when there is an excess of a carbon source, Cyano appears. I remember when I used Zeovit years ago, I reduced the flow in my Zeo reactor and upped the Carbon source. Within 36 hours Cyano appear over my sandbed and covered at least 40% of it. At first I though the worst and expected a massive battle with Cyano for a few months...but I thought about what I had changed I simply reversed what I did; increased the flow in the reactor and reduced the carbon source; within a matter of 12-16 hours the Cyano completely vanished. So my thining about that situation was that by decreasing the flow in the reactor I reduced the biological activity (as there was less flow) and the availability of extra carbon within the display as a whole allowed Cayano to appear. AIO Pellets seems to be one of the best ones out there; so as I said earlier, maybe give it a bit more time.

3. Bryopsis; I dont think you can starve them out. Just an idea...but if this were my tank; I'd pull all the affected rocks, place them into a tank without lights and basically treat them with Kent Magnesium. In a smaller vessal you wont need to use as much of the Kent stuff (cheaper) and you can scrub a rock or two every day and kill the stuff. This way your acros dont sufffer from the increased magnesium levels.

Anyway mate, just a bunch of ideas...I looked back at the first couple of pages of this thread and seriously, the photos of your old tank just had me glued to the screen. You had an amazing system...I really hope the troubles/turbulent reefing times end for you and the good old days come back.

[Cyberdude]

Hello reefmutt. Good to finally meet someone from Montreal!
I've toyed with gfo and carbon for a while. Always ended up affecting my tank in a negative way. When it's on too high, non of the corals are happy and I get cyano. I took it offline for a month and did weekly 10% water changes to return the tank to a stable state. I've just re-introduced gfo and carbon but it is literally dripping out of the reactor. See how it goes this time around.

3 year old tank as well.

[reefmutt]

Thanks, sahin..
1- agreed 100% I'm waiting on tech M but it's in my back pocket..
2 yes. I'm going to wait a few more weeks.. I'm curious to see what it looks like after my trip. The tank is getting at least 50% less food than when I am home so if the fish seem ok and nutrients are ok I might play with keeping feeding down and reducing the pellets even more..
3- I am extremely reluctant to remove the rocks. Won't be simple. Never is I guess. I'll keep on the manual removal and consider finding a fish to eat it.. Funny thing is that my yellow tang will eat free floating strands of it in one gulp but he won't pull it off the rocks. But atm, the bryopsis is not growing quickly..
Thanks for the encouragement! If I hadn't had the taste of success, there is absolutely NO WAY I would still be at this!!
One point.. Up until about 3 weeks ago I had my frag system on with cheato in one tank and corals in another. This system was even more full of various algae. I finally cleared it all out and shut off the lights. some cyano and hair algea was still in there... Certainly, all of this has been dying off and probably increasing dissolved nutrients in the system.. This is also why i will be waiting a few more weeks at least before I do anything drastic..

[glaukos]

Hope everything will be ok matt!
Hang in there and don't give up!
I can feel you buddy,in the last 3-4 weeks i've my hands in the tank more than ever manually removing hair algea

On a side note,i agree with sahin!
Kent M is a better way than starving your system.

[jroovers]

Matt, how long are you running your MHs? It sounds like to me you still have a lot of light between the LED and the T5s. After starving corals, I've found they are very reluctant to start colouring back up, so I'm not surprised you would see nuisance algae before seeing the corals coming around... I think patience is the best the approach, as you seem to be leaning towards.

[reefmutt]

Hey cyberdude! I used to know a great group of serious reefers in Montreal. Most of them have since gotten out of the hobby but there are still quite a few reefers around..
I'm not a huge fan of gfo but some have success using it properly. Carbon, I use a small amount of fairly regularly.
Glad to have you following.. Hopefully soon I'll have something worth looking at..

Mike, thanks! I hope I can get this bloody tank back on track!!!

Jordan, the mh are on for three 1.5 to 2 hour intervals. But keep in mind that they are only 150w de hanging about 10 inches above the tank. It's really not a lot of light.. I don't think..

I think I will turn off the leds when I get home and just do with the t5 and mh for now.
Unless anybody thinks that even without the LEDs I still have too much light for the suffering corals......
But patience is definitely the word of the day going forward. I will have to just maintain stability and wait it out..

[jroovers]

I agree, wait it out, but I'd lean to less light than more for the time being.

[reefmutt]

Yes, sounds like good advice..

[mhucasey]

Hi Matt, how is everything doing?

[reefmutt]

Hey Matt, well it was mostly bad news when I got back home but since correcting the significant drop in parameters and nutrient levels that happened, things are somewhat better, I guess..
I lost several pieces due to the changes in the tank.
When I got back, I took Jordan's advice and turned off the leds. I'll leave them off for now.
I also got back into the 2x day feedings which brought up nitrients a bit.
When I got home, they had dropped to .5 n and .02 p. That drop along with a drop in cal/alk, hit some of the corals that were already stressed (as they all are) pretty hard and they couldn't hang on.
Once feeding a bit more, n and p went up a bit but recently p started to climb and n stayed below 1ppm.
Instead of using a phosphate remover, I have begun adding a bit of cano3 to bring up the n- that should pull down p a little and achieve a better ration of an and p. My last test showed n at .75 and p at .13.

I'll see where they are this weekend with the n additions.

On the positive side, the algea bloom in the water seems to be almost gone. It's nice to have clear water again...
For some reason, through all of this my little red dragon continues to grow.. Pretty slowly but it is definetly growing..
I should post a pic of it since it's pretty much the only sps that is really doing ok..
All of my lps are doing great...

So.. I am staying the course and trying to keep interventions as subtle as possible.. I still have a lot of cyano but it's a bit better, as well- bryopsis is also growing very slowly..

We shall see.. In general, the tank is inching towards a better state... But inching is the word of the day... And week... And month...

[mhucasey]

Matt, I'm baffled and bummed that you haven't seen better results yet. I think keeping the nitrate from crashing and turning the LEDs off are both good ideas. The clear water is also good, I have had very clear water ever since the pellets were functioning, but I have no clue where the phosphate is coming from. I don't think that phosphate tests are very reliable or accurate, even with the pricey meter I use(Milwaukee). That's a big part of the reason why I didn't order more reagent when I ran out. I have no idea what the phosphate value is right now and don't really care anymore.
What did your calcium and alk drop to? Did you test potassium? What is the flow rate through the pellet reactor?

[reefmutt]

You and me both baffled and bummed!!
Alk went from 7.5 to 6. Cal from 420 to 380. Mag dropped to around 1280 from 1400. Not a big shift but coupled with the drop in nutrients... Wasn't pretty. I'm sure in an otherwise stable tank, this would have had little effect on the tank but since the sps are mostly so iffy To begin with, they weren't healthy enough to take it..
I am happy about the water clearing and I have temporarily redirected my obsession towards favias, favites, chalices and other corals like that. They are doing very nicely.
I think the p popped up because the n went down too low.. I suspect it'll go down with the n additions..... I'll be able to see in a few days, no doubt... I don't like to have to do this nutrient engineering, however. I'm sure the sps aren't happy about it..
I use both a Hanna ULR phosphorus egg and the Elos high resolution p test kits. Together, they give pretty consistent results, I find..
K I have not tested, but I am doing regular 10% wcs with Red Sea coral pro or dd h2 ocean.
I will test k tonight and do an actual flow test on my AIO reactor and let you know..

[mhucasey]

Oh crap! Stay away from Red Sea coral pro!! I started my tank with that stuff and had suffering SPS for months til I found out it's really low in potassium. It's alk is way too high too. I would test K with a Salifert test. Don't use any other, order it online if you can't get it local. It's cheap compared with other Salifert tests.

[reefmutt]

Well all I can say is....



I'll get salt and a salifert k test kit, today if I can..

Thanks!

[mhucasey]

When I started my tank I bought the 200 gallon bag of Red Sea coral pro- because it was the most expensive salt the LFS had, and it said "coral" and "pro" on it. I've seen a lot of threads with mysteriously suffering tanks that use this stuff. I gather that the blue bucket is better, but I won't buy from Red Sea again. If money is no object I use ESV or brightwell, otherwise good old IO is just fine. I'm a month away from one year with no water changes right now though, so my boxes of ESV are just taking up space...

[JB NY]

Originally Posted by mhucasey

Oh crap! Stay away from Red Sea coral pro!! I started my tank with that stuff and had suffering SPS for months til I found out it's really low in potassium. It's alk is way too high too. I would test K with a Salifert test. Don't use any other, order it online if you can't get it local. It's cheap compared with other Salifert tests.

I have not read about low Potassium on RSCP, I switched to that from Oceanic, largely because with Triton tests people got some of the best numbers coming from RSCP. Other than having high alk, I have not noticed any problems with it.

[reefmutt]

Well.. I was using io for quite some time but I recently got a bucket of the coral pro so I was using it up.
I have some reef crystals kicking around as well... And io, actually..
Anyways, I couldn't find a salifert test kit so I'll have to see what my Red Sea I test kit gives me.

[mhucasey]

Ahhh, the Red Sea Potassium Kit - best when titrating using natural light. That color change is very subtle. Potassium is very stable for most people once its at NSW levels but if it starts out low or gets driven down and not replenished it can cause all kinds of problems for SPS. I tried a quick search for the study that tested Red Sea Coral Pro's potassium levels but didn't find it right away. It was the only salt i used when I started my tank and based on the study(which showed it having potassium levels around 250 if I remember correctly), I added potassium chloride to the tank, keeping track of how much I added. After adding enough to raise levels by 100ppm the corals started turning around. I kept adding it as a regular thing and switched salts.
I couldn't test at that time because the only hobbyist test kit then was the zeovit test, and it wasn't available and didn't work very well anyway. When I finally got a test kit it was a Red Sea kit and I showed 430-440. I eventually got the Salifert kit and came in right at 400.

For the past year I've been at 420-430 with no direct potassium dosing(it is in the FM color elements though), and then in the last few weeks it has dropped off bit until a couple of days ago when I read 400. The corals seem to have been healthier at 420 than 400, but Im going to keep watching this. I think Potassium is an often overlooked element.

[mhucasey]

Originally Posted by JB NY

I have not read about low Potassium on RSCP, I switched to that from Oceanic, largely because with Triton tests people got some of the best numbers coming from RSCP. Other than having high alk, I have not noticed any problems with it.

The big thing that is different about Red Sea Coral Pro is that it is dehydrated seawater - not made up from the various components. They must add back alkalinity and calcium but Im not sure what else they supplement. Surprisingly, its loaded with bacteria even though its dehydrated.

Many reefers have had bad experiences with it, most times I see the "Blue Bucket" non pro version recommended instead. One issue with it may be inconsistency with the batches. It's worth testing potassium, perhaps they supplement now or your batch is higher in potassium, but its good to check. Triton numbers for many of the elements are probably better because it isn't using mined salt.

[bklynreef123]

Just stumbled on this thread and can't wait to read through the whole thing. I have recently stopped using RSCP the alk seems to be very high.

[JB NY]

Hmm that is interesting. Other than the Alk being high, I have not had any problems with it.

I switched to RSCP from oceanic when trying to fix a bad funk my tank was in back in December. I did well over 450 gallons of water changes over a three week period. The corals responded very well, and I turned my tank around. I really like how clear it mixes up, and how fast I can use it. Time will tell. I'll probably pick up a Salifert Potassium kit just to be on the safe side though.

[mhucasey]

Originally Posted by JB NY

Hmm that is interesting. Other than the Alk being high, I have not had any problems with it.

I switched to RSCP from oceanic when trying to fix a bad funk my tank was in back in December. I did well over 450 gallons of water changes over a three week period. The corals responded very well, and I turned my tank around. I really like how clear it mixes up, and how fast I can use it. Time will tell. I'll probably pick up a Salifert Potassium kit just to be on the safe side though.

Doesn't its high Alkalinity complicate water changes for You? I had read Alk as high as 14 to 16 when I used it. Since I keep the tank at lower than 8(and closer to 6 most of the time) it would throw off my alkalinity if I used it.

If you like clear, fast mixing and consistent results you definitely should try the ESV salt kit. You can literally have usable saltwater in 10-15 minutes, no joke.

[JB NY]

The high alk is but of a pain, but so far nothing really unmanageable. I have about 400 G total, I do about a 40 gallon WC. If I don't do anything, just do a straight water change, the RSCP It pulls my alk up about 0.8 dkH. I keep it around 7.7-8.0, I have only frags in the tank now so my Ca Reactor is running really low (I can't get it dialed in perfect) and I lose about 0.15 dKh a day so, it evens out in a few days.

If I need to keep the alk consistent during a WC, I use muriatic acid to drop the alk to 8. Takes about 15ml, pulls the pH down in the RSCP a lot, but I don't notice a significant change on the tank pH when I do the WC.

RSCP cost me about $50 for the bucket, ESV is a lot more. If I could find a salt that mixed good, had low alk and good Ca and Mg I would probably try that but so far all the decent mixes seem to have crazy high alk anyway.

[mhucasey]

My best results mixing wise and repeatability wise were with the Brightwell salt and the ESV(I mixed it to a lower alkj). Instant ocean worked fine also, but it has high Alk and it has a lot of clay which leaves a residue.
I tried KZ Reefer's best - expensive and seemed no different from the Brightwell to me.
There was one other brand I tried that seemed pretty close to IO

I'm thinking more and more that many of the salts are kind of a scam. There are just as many amazing tanks that use IO as any other salt. After using ESV, I know I could easily make my own salt mix up from scratch, Glennf has done it for years and I have the recipe.