basic question ALK and CA

[mrtint]

So I started dosing my 225 gal tank (200gal water) and have a dosing question

To raise my CA level....Do I also raise my ALK? It is a 2 part B-Ionic

I started slow at 25mil on 9/5/2016
ALK 7.0 25mil
CA 340 25mil
MAG 840 25mil

also using NO-3 PO4X at 4mil a day
PO 0
Nitrate 10

9/27/2016 increase to 35mil daily
ALK 7.2
CA 350
MAG 850
Increase NO-3 PO-4X to 6mil
PO 0
Nitate .25

Tested today 9/30/2016 (have not increased anything yet till I get advise)
ALK 8.0
CA 340
MAG 960

So my plan is to bump MAG another 10mil (45 daily)
keep the NO-3 PO-4 the same
BUT my ALK is right and my CA is low. It recommends to keep the dosed amounts equal

Should I increase both or just the CA? (FYI....the recommended dose for ALK,CA and MAG is 50mil a day but I know its all based on demand in the tank)

[xCry0x]

Equal dosing is based on CA and Alk being consumed at a fixed ratio.

If your CA is low you would want to dose it more to bring it into balance before falling into a fixed rate dosing.

Similar with MAG -- you actually want that to be corrected first, then fix CA.

My CA was sitting at 380 and I wanted to bump/maintain it at 430 -- so I dosed CA to bring it up and now it is being maintained.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

Super helpful tool for making adjustments.

[mrtint]

Originally Posted by xCry0x

Equal dosing is based on CA and Alk being consumed at a fixed ratio.

If your CA is low you would want to dose it more to bring it into balance before falling into a fixed rate dosing.

Similar with MAG -- you actually want that to be corrected first, then fix CA.

My CA was sitting at 380 and I wanted to bump/maintain it at 430 -- so I dosed CA to bring it up and now it is being maintained.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

Super helpful tool for making adjustments.

So get Mag up to correct level.......Then increase CA to get to correct level.

Then do you keep the CA dosed amount the same or bring it back down to the ALK dosed amount to maintain?

WOW The Calculator Says to put 46oz of CA and 365oz of MAG?????? dump 1/3 to 1/2 one day.....test then do the rest. Can that much be dosed in one day? I only have fish and a few softies in there now.....will that stress them? It said PH swing is minimal

[jurgenph]

why not do a few large water changes to get the levels back up to where you want them or where they need to be, instead of dosing enormous amounts of supplement to raise them.

then from there on, you can just use a small maintenance dose to keep things stable.


J.

[xCry0x]

I personally bought calcium chloride and made my own 2 part to dose it up.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Probably significantly cheaper than using b-ionic.

Worth noting, I used Kent Ca booster initially. The result was I used an entire bottle over a week and my Ca ended up low still -.-

Then I bought that calcium chloride and used maybe 10 tsp of it to bring my Ca to where I wanted it. 10 TSP is only a fraction of what you get for $8 =)

And yes - Mag takes a lot to bring up.

Typical recommendation is to split it up just incase something is wrong with your calcium. EG if you are doing what I did and the calcium had some sort of toxin in it for some reason.

Then the way it works long term is that Ca and ALK is consumed at a fixed ratio of 2.8 dKH: 20 ppm -- the b-ionic 2 part is formulated so dosing even amounts raises Alk and Calcium evenly.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by jurgenph

why not do a few large water changes to get the levels back up to where you want them or where they need to be, instead of dosing enormous amounts of supplement to raise them.

then from there on, you can just use a small maintenance dose to keep things stable.


J.

I am far from a chemistry expert but unless your salt mix is supersaturated w/ Ca/Alk you would need to do a 100% water change to bring the levels up.

[jurgenph]

Originally Posted by xCry0x

I am far from a chemistry expert but unless your salt mix is supersaturated w/ Ca/Alk you would need to do a 100% water change to bring the levels up.

i did say "large" water change

but from the levels he's been posting it looks like things have gotten out of balance far enough that trying to dose them back to normal may cause more problems, or cost more then two or three 50% water changes.

just about any salt mix should be good enough to bump things up and restore all things that got lost and led to this situation.


J.

[mrtint]

I think Ill do both. A water change never hurts but I have no intention of changing 200 gallons of water.

I ordered the $8 calcium chloride that will be here tomorrow (gotta love amazon)

Any suggestions on the MAG? I do happen to have 2 gallons of the EVS on hand. It calls for 1.7 gallons to raise to 1300ppm

Tank has been up for 2 months....did a big water change after cycle.... have 5 fish and 3 softies in there now for a couple weeks.......Whats using the MAG? live rock?

[GimpyFin]

What salt are you using? One thing that's important is getting Magnesium closer to 1300. This will also help with keeping the other two more stable.

[jurgenph]

keep in mind that dumping that much Mg in your tank is going to raise the salinity, so in order to fix that you're going to have to remove water and replace with RODI, which will lower your levels again...


J.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by mrtint

I ordered the $8 calcium chloride that will be here tomorrow (gotta love amazon)

That's why I gave the Amazon link hah.

Coralline algae will consume a good amount of ca/alk in a tank. My general understanding is that mag is typically consumed at a much lower rate to the extent that most can manage with just ca/alk dosing and water changes.

The water you use for water changes could have a low mag concentration, would be worth testing that.

When you start paying attention to ca/alk/mag knowing what ratios are in your water change water is super important.

EG you would be fighting an uphill battle to keep alk/ca/mag at 9/450/1350 if your water change is 7/420/1280 (natural sea water).

[mrtint]

Originally Posted by GimpyFin

What salt are you using? One thing that's important is getting Magnesium closer to 1300. This will also help with keeping the other two more stable.

Tank was filled using RO/DI water and Tropic Marine salt (not Pro Version)

Since then I switched to Red Sea Pro salt (I think is actually called coral Pro) just because its what the closest fish store carried

[mrtint]

Originally Posted by jurgenph

keep in mind that dumping that much Mg in your tank is going to raise the salinity, so in order to fix that you're going to have to remove water and replace with RODI, which will lower your levels again...


J.

Thank You for reminding me that. I experienced that early on in my nano tank

[mrtint]

Originally Posted by xCry0x

That's why I gave the Amazon link hah.

Coralline algae will consume a good amount of ca/alk in a tank. My general understanding is that mag is typically consumed at a much lower rate to the extent that most can manage with just ca/alk dosing and water changes.

The water you use for water changes could have a low mag concentration, would be worth testing that.

When you start paying attention to ca/alk/mag knowing what ratios are in your water change water is super important.

EG you would be fighting an uphill battle to keep alk/ca/mag at 9/450/1350 if your water change is 7/420/1280 (natural sea water).

When you refer to water used for water changes.... you mean mixed.....meaning some salt mix will have lower values then natural sea water? If thats the case....then yes. I buy salt by the bucket and will test my first batch to make sure I didn't get some bum salt. I also only use RO/DI water in my tanks.......Leaned the hard way back in the day (Im talking late 80's) with hair algae outbreak that I couldn't get rid of until I figured it was my tap water. Things have come a long way since!

[GimpyFin]

Yeah, Just take it slow and don't be in a hurry to chase numbers. A water change with the Red Sea Pro is a good start. Using a salt that has parameters close to what you want to maintain makes things easier too. I'm assuming you're running a salinity around 1.025-1.026?

[xCry0x]

Yup I mean mixed.

Red sea coral pro salt has high values, natural sea water has relatively lower values.

If you wanted to maintain an alk value above 7, for example, using natural seawater that has an alk of 7 would be counter productive -- you would be diluting your alk with every change.

[mrtint]

Got it. Thanks guys


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[bertoni]

I would get a second opinion on the magnesium kit before dosing a lot of supplement. That's suspiciously low. You might have gotten a bad batch of salt. I'd check some freshly-mixed saltwater. I agree that 1275 ppm or so is a good target for magnesium, but I'd raise the level no more than 50-100 ppm per day, after making sure that the kit is accurate.

Getting the calcium level up to 400 ppm is an appropriate step, as well, although I might get a second opinion on that kit, as well. I agree that you can dose just the calcium part to raise that level, although buying some calcium chloride might save some money.

[Martin Kuhn]

I wonder a bit why so many guys recommend to do as huge waterchanges just to adjust Ca / Alk / Mg.
- this is very expensive and time consuming
- without knowing the exact values the salt brings with it, this is even a lottery

I'm not saying water changes are bad. They aren't. But for another reason. They "dilute" any harmful stuff and even much more add trace elements in an appropriate way

For adjusting Ca/Alk/Mg it is clearly the best way using the balling method / balling salts

It is cheap (as long as you are buying the salts instead of ready mixed solutions) and very accurate.
Another big advantage is that you can adjust and hold each of the 3 values wherever you want them to




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[jurgenph]

balling method is not used to adjust values. It is used to maintain them once they are where they need to be.

[mrtint]

I'm lucky to have multiple tanks, that when tested, results come back as expected using the same test kits..... so I'm confident my test kits are good. All kits are salifert.

I will admit that I have not tested this last batch of salt... so I will start there

My largest tank over the last 20 years was 125 (80gal water volume) I think I'm just shocked that you can pour 2 gallons of magnesium into a tank with little effect. NO I HAVE NO PLANS TO DO THAT! I will do it at 100ppm per day. Same with CA.
Once I reach the desired levels can I expect the 50mil a day will maintain my levels (I realize is could be 30 or it could be 80 depending on load) but I shouldn't need to be dumping huge amounts once stable.... correct?

As far as water changes.... I agree that they are needed and are always the safest to bring parameters back to normal but I don't think it's any cheaper. A bucket of salt cost me $80 that gives me 150-200 gallons of water. If I were to use premixed MAG and the CA. I would be $70 and leave me with extra.

I think I will do a 40-50% water change then start raising parameters

Thanks guys. Love learning from other hobbies


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[hkgar]

Originally Posted by xCry0x

I personally bought calcium chloride and made my own 2 part to dose it up.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Bulk Reef Supply has calcium chloride in a 1 gallon (7 pounds) for $19.99 ($2.85/lb.)

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by Martin Kuhn

I wonder a bit why so many guys recommend to do as huge waterchanges just to adjust Ca / Alk / Mg.
- this is very expensive and time consuming
- without knowing the exact values the salt brings with it, this is even a lottery

I'm not saying water changes are bad. They aren't. But for another reason. They "dilute" any harmful stuff and even much more add trace elements in an appropriate way

For adjusting Ca/Alk/Mg it is clearly the best way using the balling method / balling salts

It is cheap (as long as you are buying the salts instead of ready mixed solutions) and very accurate.
Another big advantage is that you can adjust and hold each of the 3 values wherever you want them to

+1. Has an example I try to maintain 460 CA, 7.8 dKH and Mag 1400. I am currently using Instant Ocean salt and I tested it at 400 CA, 11 dKH and 1300 Mag. There is NO way water changes could ever get my values in line.

Here is a link to a guide to the values for different salts. (and every batch of them will not necessarily test to those stated values.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/salt-mix-guide

[mrtint]

So I am going to dose 1300ml of MAG a day for 5 days. Calculator say to get 200gal from 960 to 1300. Using EVS B-Ionic magnesium..... I will need 6800ml
So to raise it 100ppm per day. I am going to dose 27.08 every 1/2 hour (48 doses) per day

I'll test everyday along the way

Should I raise my CA at the same time or wait till MAG is correct then start with CA?


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[bertoni]

You should be able to raise the calcium to 350 ppm for the time being. That'll be fine for corals. I'm not sure how much extra precipitation to expect from magnesium at 900-1000 ppm, but probably not all that much.