Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")

[darrellh]

Hi Anthony,

Could you comment on the refuge/sump design in this drawing?

The refuge/sump is a standard 75 gal glass tank in the stand of the 215 gal main. The skimmer is an ASM-G3, and pump is a GRI-520. The suction for the pump is looped around the way its is to avoid drilling glass. Also I tried to show the horizontal launch plate from the skimmer zone to the refugium zone you discussed earlier in this thread.

Thanks,
Darrell

[darrellh]

Trying again to upload image.

[Anthony Calfo]

the one flaw I see if the splash plate for the skimmer overflow water.

As it is here, it will spill over (more downward) and not splash horizontally.

That is to say... the way you have the plate mounted here will make the water fall over and down unless you measure the sump wall panel very carefully and make it so that it is just high enough to always keep water over the plate.

Else... it looks fab my friend

[darrellh]

Anthony,

Thanks for taking a look.

So just slide the plate down a bit so that it's no higher than the top of the sump wall? Any gotchas to look out with the pump suction line going over the top?

Thanks again,
Darrell

[Anthony Calfo]

correct... sort of. Slide the plate down so that it is lower(!) than the sump wall/dam. Just slightly (say 1-2")

This will insure that the water overflowing the skimmer partition wall will spill over and crash down on the plate (since the sump wall maintains the water level higher) then be forced horizontally just across/under the surface of the refugium portion, creating the rolling water flow you seek.

[BrianPlankis]

Anthony,

I just wanted to thank you for your assist in my design of my new sump. I had to go with the 29 due to space limitations, but it sure eased my mind about a flood, lots of extra room for water:

I unfortunately had to put my HOB skimmer into my sump as I didn't want to drill the 29 for the input pipe, so my cheato area is smaller than I want:



But, now my skimmer pump draws water from the top 4 inches of the water instead of the bottom 1 inch and in eight hours I already have this:



The picture doesn't show it, but it is dark green yummy skimmate. I also had 1 inch of dark green skimmate in my overflow bottle in 8 hours, looks like I'll need to empty my skimmate every 1-3 days, much better than the 3-5 days it took to get one cup with my old refuge/sump.

THANKS FOR THE INFO!

Brian

[Anthony Calfo]

outstanding to hear!

It really is amazing what a properly installed skimmer can do.

When I tell folks that they can get daily(!) consistent skimmate... many are doubtful. Yet when you take the time to tweak and tun a good design, the results (skimmate and tank health long term) are impressive

[mwood]

Anthony, quick question. I've been reading about fuge flow rates and was wondering about sump flow rates. If you have the proper flow in your tank through closed loops, and the right flow going though a separate fuge, how much flow do you need going through a sump housing a skimmer and heater? I ask the question after reading an interesting thread about sending a thinner surface layer to the sump via smaller turnover rates. What do you think?

Marcus

[Anthony Calfo]

the sump loop can be rather slow and quiet. There is no hard and fast rule for minimums/max. You'll find that even the smaller duty pumps that will handle the job long term of even 4' head from the floor to the top of the tank, for example, are still going to give you at least 800-1000gph (as with a Quiet one, Mag 9, etc). This is a reasonable amount of flow for typical home aquariums 55-180 gall. And its more than enough for a skimmer to process organics.

[charley75]

Anthony,
My question is similar to the one above regarding sump flow.
I am hoping to upggrade in the near future from my current 75 to a 180, and then use my 75 for my sump/fuge. The sump will have the skimmer section at one end, the fuge at the other end, and the return section in the middle. I am also planning on using a Reeflo Dart for a CL. With all the recent reading on sump flow I'm beginning to think that there's no need to buy a bigger return pump (currently using Mag9.5). I was also planning on having an overflow in each back corner of the tank with 1 1/2 drains. Is this unnecessary as well?
Can I just have one overflow in one corner(or center), split with a T feeding the skimmer and fuge sections (each controlled with a ball valve). Would this be the better thing to do?
Thanks,
Charley

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Charlie

indeed... you do not need a bigger pump to run the sump loop. Leave your CL pump to do the heavy duty while keeping your sump quiet and smooth running

But please do not tee the overflow drain. Ever. Never! A simply dreadful notion for many reasons re: complicated plumbing, handicapping the downstream skimmer, etc.

As for the overflow drains... you may want/need to keep these too. While you do not need a large sump pump, you do want large/quiet overflow drains. Displays are too commonly underdrilled. One 1.5" drains may handle the mag 9.5 at the head you likely have on it... but it will be operating on the high end of the range. Too risky for me. Drill a 2" hole or stick with your original plan for two 1.5" holes.

FWIW... I never liked refugia integrated into sumps. Too cramped, limited production from such small refugia... and unduly restricts sump proper volume/buffer.

[charley75]

Anthony,
Thanks for the quick response. OK, so stick with the 2 drains....1 for skimmer, 1 for fuge. Is that enough flow through a fuge....roughly 400gph?
FWIW, I currently run a separate fuge, but am hoping to consolidate...also compromising with the wife by getting the fuge out of the utility room.
Charley

[Anthony Calfo]

no worries, Charley

I'm wondering though if you cannot simply send all raw water to the skimmer compartment first... then have that overflow to the refugium compartment... which then overflows tot he sump compartment before being pumped back to the display?

It is very important if/when using a skimmer to send all raw water to it if possible.

Anth-

[charley75]

Anthony,
Yeah, I could do that...I just though it was better to not skim the water from the refugium. I think I read that somewhere here on RC a while back. If that's the case and I only need one drain, does it matter where the overflow is....corner or center?

Thanks,
Charley

[Anthony Calfo]

it would depend on what you are growing in refugia... but most likely the optimal export of (accumulating) organics via the skimmer (getting all raw water) will likely serve the greater good if your tank is like most, my friend.

Anth-

[charley75]

In that case, my plumbing should be much simpler. Does it matter where the overflow is placed, center or corner?
Charley

[Anthony Calfo]

its no great matter overall... build it wherever it suits you best aesthetically, my friend.

[charley75]

Anthony,
Would one 2" drain be enough for the Dart on a CL since the intake on the Dart is 2"? Also, do you think the Dart is powerful enough to adequately supply a perimeter manifold? I am wanting to drill the bottom for the overflow and the CL. For the CL intake, I was thinking of coming up from the bottom of the tank to a T with a 2" strainer on each side. Is this doable or would It still create too much suction and shred my inhabitants?
Thanks a bunch,
Charley

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Charley

no... I rarely if ever recommend drilling the bottom of an aquarium. Undue risk and no practical service in most cases.

Feed/flood the pump from a 2" bulkhead that is about 1/3 down from the top of the tank. We don;t want to go down any further than we need to be safe in case of a bulkhead leak. But we do need to be down low enough to prevent the strong pump from sucking air.

As for the Dart on a manifold... do see if you can get at least 400gph from each 1/2-3/4 outlet (more if you are using larger tees). And see if you can come close to having one tee per ten gallons of water on the manifold loop.

[mr. maroon clown]

does anybody have any pics of chaeto? wanna see the good stuff

[pclausen]

Originally posted by mr. maroon clown
does anybody have any pics of chaeto? wanna see the good stuff

[killerwhale]

Anthony, I have the luxury of ample space and want to design multiple refugiums. My desire is to set up refugiums for nutrient uptake, DSB,and plankton generator. I want you to know I have read your books and gathered the info but I would like more specifics on setting up multiple refugums. I know you are always careful not to force your ideas on other people(you are wonderful about sharing your info and letting us decide what we want to do with it)But if YOU were seting up a 400 gallon tank and YOU had YOUR choice of 3 rugiums what size and configuration would you choose. For example If you are looking for uptake I know you like Cheto or Grac. but if you set up proper skimmers would there be more benefits derived from a big grass bed. If so how big would it need to be to gain the PROPER benifits( benefits that YOU would deem worth while) or would this even be in your design?If x amount of water is to be supplied to the skimmer is there enough to supply proper flow to other refugiums or do they need raw flow from tank also?So many questions. I hope I havent stepped out of bounds for the forum I know this is long. Truly I know 99.9% of us value your humble but most accurate opinion Thank you so much for all your efforts and willingness to share and help us.I'm truly blown away that this info that has been gathered at your most precious resource(time)would be shared with no strings attached.

[Anthony Calfo]

My latest (new) tank has a marsh refugium with intertidal grasses... for aesthetics and the fixing of some nutrients...

my workhorse is my (second) Chaetomorpha refugium: growing fast, being harvested (nutrient export and providing a fab matrix for micrococrustaceans in the process

I may add another Gracilaria (small) refugium to recycle nutrients for herbivorous fishes.

Above all... I do like Chaeto tumbling and vigorous.

kindly,

Anth

[killerwhale]

Based on all your lit. I assume you have a skimmer set up first. Are these set up in a series to be gravity fed after the skimmer or does it require being fed by the return pump to provide the proper flow.Maybe I'm assuming it takes alot more flow than what is really needed but you are always encouraging us to have proper flow.I know I have a problem with nuisance algea out competing caulerpa in an eco-system I have set up now.Sorry I don't know how to post previous quotes but you replied to mwood 800 to 1000gallonsto process organics That doesnt seem enough to accomplish flow in the other refugiums or am I just missing it.

[killagoby]

I have 152GPH going through my fuge which holds maybe 2 or 3 gallons of water (on a 29 gallon tank) and 18w of PC lighting on it. Will that be enough for my Cheateo if I run the lights 24/7?