Waterfall Turf Algea Filter: CHEAP and EASY to build

[matt & pam]

piercho,

When you harvested were you getting pretty close to completely bare PVC, or did you just pinch some of the algae off leaving algae growth ffairly visable?

Matt

[piercho]

I took a thick piece of scrap acrylic and scrapped off everything I could. The dominant alga was longer and stringier than typical Derbesia, really no idea what it was, but it was tough to get off of the plastic and there were always remnants. The same alga was not evident in the display tank. I also rinsed off the tray under the tap to wash away as many herbivores as possible. I think reducing grazing pressure is a fundamental parameter of a productive ATS.

[SantaMonica]

Piercho that's a lot of N and P you are pullin' !

[SantaMonica]

In a classic case of "not doing research", some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they
follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"

Well. I took the time to watch it (one hour). But, I guess they did NOT. The video starts out appearing to make the point of "algae kills corals", and if you stopped watching after fifteen minutes, that's what you'd think. But the first part of that presentation is just a setup for the presenter's further explanations, and is not the point itself.

It's a similar situation to a presentation for beginners about how rock, sand, and the nitrogen cycle works: You would start by saying "If I have a fish in a bucket of water, and I pour in ammonia, the fish will die." This is true, but it's only used to set up later explanations of how rock and sand come into the picture to stop the death of the fish.

So it turns out that if you watch the whole research video, the presenter/researcher not only makes the point of pro-algae folks, and counters the point of the people who posted it (as their evidence), but it also counters the entire group of people who say no-skimmers and high-DOC's are bad. I've been saying that my focus never was skimmer or no-skimmer; instead my focus was reducing N and P cheaply, quickly, and with no risk. But since these people made this video/research available, I'll use it:

The presenter is trying to show how "algae that kills coral" would SEEM to occur, so later he can show you what they really found in their research. The crux of his presentation is basically: "We thought higher DOC's were the cause of coral death; We were wrong. Lower DOC's are" (these are my words).

So here is the video, with rough quotes of what the video says, along with the minutes and seconds into the video where you can see it for yourself:

http://www.marine.usf.edu/videos/2007-01-26.wmv

23:30 "Bulk DOC does not correlate with coral decline; higher DOC areas have healthier corals; lower DOC areas have weaker corals. The opposite of what we predicted".

24:40 "The DOC to DIN ratio's are higher on healthy reefs, and lower on less-healthy reefs".

25:45 "Microbial numbers are elevated with a lower DOC to DIN ratio" (!) (even I got that one wrong).

34:00 "Christmas Island, with the really low DOC, has the highest pathogens, while Kingman Island, with the highest DOC, has the lowest pathogens."

37:00 "On Kingman Island you have high hard-coral coverage and the lowest disease [and highest DOC]. That's weird! What you SHOULD find is that as hard-coral coverage reduces, it should be harder for the pathogens to find hosts, so you should see a pathogen decrease. But we're not seeing that, which means there is SOMETHING ELSE going on."

49:20 "The DOC definitely always goes down, in the really bad coral areas".

52:39 "You can actually put the corals where the nutrients are really high, and the corals are not dying; in some cases they tend to grow better, which is also true in our [???].

So I submit to them, using their own evidence, that not using a skimmer, with the resultant increase in DOC's (and now apparent decrease in microbes), is not in-itself a coral killer. Something else is. And this explains why some people using algal-only filtration can grow great sps.

[matt & pam]

Please post a picture of a mature tank run with ATS without skimmer growing great sps.

[piercho]

I don't think you can make general statement that increasing DOC is good. Feldman & Maers just put article in Advanced Aquarist this month showing that they could induce coral mortality by increasing DOC: Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part 1
They also show increased DOC near coral may be attributed to the corals, themselves. Most interesting part was that skimming did not have much effect on tank DOC levels in test study.

Matt, no claims of tank like Joe Burger or Steve Weast here! I kept lagoonal tank with mostly LPS and clams. I did have Stylos, Acros, Pocs and Birdsnest but did not achieve impressive growth rates or coloration compared to others.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by matt & pam
Please post a picture of a mature tank run with ATS without skimmer growing great sps.

i too have been waiting for a sps dominated tank solely running on an ats without skimming and little to no water changes.

[SantaMonica]

No the point of the video research was that they were using it as their closing argument that "algae kills corals". But they didn't even watch the video.

Also, I've started compiling a list of mixed and sps keepers. Will take a while but I'll get it done. Most are not on RC.

[SantaMonica]

Wow. There's so much to post that I don't know which should be first. Today I'll cover max inputs that's I've been able to achieve.

I've been experimenting with how much I can feed my 90g, with only my 144 square inch turf screen doing the filtering. I'd add more food for a few days, then the Salifert N test would start showing a tiny bit of pink (about a .2 reading). Then I'd cut the food in half, until the reading went clear (zero N measured). Interestingly, P never increased. Ever. Only N. So after a few tries, here's the max I've been able feed the tank while just barely getting an N increase:


Max Feeding:

Liquid Life Marine Plankton with Cyclopeeze: 3 pumps a day
Liquid Life Bio Plankton (live phyto): 2 pumps a day
Frozone mysis: 2 cubes a day, unwashed, thawed in 4 oz tap water.
Silversides: 1 per week (for the eel)


Tank:

90 Display, BB
20 Sump
150 pounds LR
60 inches fish
40 corals, all softie and lps
6000 gph circulation
Carbon now used once a month for allelpathics


I'm now settling in on a lesser amount:

1 pump phyto
1-2 pumps plankton
2 cubes mysis, unwashed, thawed in 4 oz tap water.
Silversides: 1 per week (for the eel)

[vitz]

some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"

you refer to this thread ?

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123420

the only accusation made was that YOU didn't do research-not only do you misrepresent personal non in depth anecdote as actual research-now you're misrepresenting the people who tried to initially have a cogent, coherent, logical argument with you while trying to explain to you the difference between the two

i'm not aware of any of the posters on that thread CONSTANTLY accusing anyone of anything regarding turf scrubbing, as it's a subject that's hardly ever brought up there, btw

[vitz]

i just know i'm about to see 'ad hominem' again

[SantaMonica]

For those that don't already know, you can do two things when Vitz posts:

1) Click "Report this post to a moderator" at the end of the post, on the right.

2) Click on the "My RC" button at the top of your screen, then click "Edit Ignore List", type Vitz in the empty box, and click Update List.

[One Dumm Hikk]

Originally posted by SantaMonica
For those that don't already know, you can do two things when Vitz posts:

1) Click "Report this post to a moderator" at the end of the post, on the right.

2) Click on the "My RC" button at the top of your screen, then click "Edit Ignore List", type Vitz in the empty box, and click Update List.

You forgot Options 3 and 4:

3) Read the thread he linked to. Make up your own mind as to who knows what about an ATF.

4) Research ATF'es (Google is your friend) and find out the alternatives to an ATF for the removal of N and P from a system and see which ways are the MOST EFFICIENT at doing it.

[SantaMonica]

I've seen it; it's mine.

I've done it. Turf wins.

[salty joe]

Well, I've been lurking since this this thread started. Waterfall turf is an innovative idea. Especially when you consider how fast the intensity of light drops off due to the inverse square law. It looks like the light can be positioned very close to the waterfall. Energy efficiancy and all. Evaporative cooling was mentioned, but then there's all that humidity.
Anyway, Ive seen too many, way too many, threads get shut down because of disagreements over how best this HOBBY should be managed. I've seen people throw little barbs until someone finally loses their temper and flames. I call it flame baiting. Take the bait and the thread gets closed. A clever form of censorship. I'm not accusing anyone of flame baiting, but I feel a thread closing fight brewing between SantaMonica and Vitz. IMO, algae filters are very useful, but a counterpoint is a lot better than just a cheering section. Let's not let this thread get closed.

[aqua180]

a flatbed ats works the best, takes up more room and makes a little more noise when the surge bucket fills and dumps, but with my years of using ats's these grow the turf quickly and are easy to harvest every week ,which is a must.

[SantaMonica]

Another difference is that some of the flatbeds had tight lids, which stopped evaporation. That could be useful or not. I like the evaporation; along with the fans I added on top of the tank and sump, they have caused my chiller to stop turnning on at all.

I'm currently designing a high $ acrylic low-profile unit for my 90 that will sit on my sump. It will be enclosed so there will be no evaporation, unless I cut a hole and use a fan. It also with have very powerful T5HO strips just 1.5" from the screen, providing over three times the power compared to the bulb used in my sample bucket.

[SantaMonica]

Here is the screen from the person who bought pre-grown turf from Inland Aquatics, after growing on the tank for one week, and then after cleaning:

[salty joe]

Originally posted by SantaMonica
I'm currently designing a high $ acrylic low-profile unit for my 90 that will sit on my sump. It will be enclosed so there will be no evaporation, unless I cut a hole and use a fan. It also with have very powerful T5HO strips just 1.5" from the screen, providing over three times the power compared to the bulb used in my sample bucket.

But if there is a barrier between the algae and the light, a lot of the light will be blocked by algae and calcium carbonate buildup on the plastic or glass.

[SantaMonica]

No, amazingly the water does not cause much salt spray when the flow is set correctly. In my bucket now, when I reach down and feel the walls (even right near the screen), there is almost nothing there. In the new acrylic one, yes there will be some since it will be very close, but the lights are much much closer to make up for it, plus, they are three times the power. Besides, any salt spray that does build can be washed off by just plugging the drain of the box so the water fills to the top. I'll have pics to show just how much it happens.

[Tang Salad]

Originally posted by SantaMonica
For those that don't already know, you can do two things when Vitz posts:

1) Click "Report this post to a moderator" at the end of the post, on the right.

2) Click on the "My RC" button at the top of your screen, then click "Edit Ignore List", type Vitz in the empty box, and click Update List.

That's extremely uncalled for. Vitz is simply offering very good, accurate, and backed-up criticsm of this method which has been around for decades.

If you make very bold claims, you should be ready for some bold criticism.

[vitz]

the ONLY initial criticism i had was with santa claiming that a scrubber replaces a skimmer+fuge+everything else, when it was plainly obvious that he has VERY little practical experience, and absolutely NO hard data to back up his statements.

i even offered a complement on the diy part of his post, and explained the root of my critique as simply and plainly as possible, as others did

all we got back in return was a complete refusal to engage in the attempt to back up his outlandish claim with hard data, and cries of 'ad hominem!', which is pretty hypocritical given his post about what to do when i post to this bb, lol

he's also shown his ignorance on what the various filter/maintenance systems do, how they do it, and how the ecology of a tank works, along with all of the possibly thousands of variables involved regarding what actually is happening with all of the various biological and chemical processes going on in any closed or open system

having been in this hobby since '76-77, with experience in retail since '77, 3-4 years of commercial polyaquaculture, currently the main husbandry tech for one of the largest importer/wholesalers in the country,and being quite well read/experienced in all of the various tank keeping methods, i've seen too many noobs get sucked into this type of 'hype' advice, only to see them fail horribly when something happens that the original poster wasn't even aware was capable of occuring, that the noob then has NO knowledge about how to fix

NO filtration method replaces any other-they are ALL DIFFERENT, and all do an incomplete job-so how could ONE method replace three ? seems to me that a skimmer/fuge/dsb has many more bases covered than an algae scrubber

but then again, i have a very good idea what each one does and how, and what the shortcomings are for each

with only 2 yrs in the hobby (not all of it actually maintaining the tank himself, heh) it's IMPOSSIBLE for that initial statement to be made by santa, and be remotely backed up, let alone correct

and i'm still waiting to see a pic of a mature healthy sps tank that uses only a turf scrubber-no wc's, skimmer, sand bed, fuge, or anything else, btw

some people just can't accept that in spite of their enthusiasm, they're simply wrong-which i don't have an issue with-i have a serious issue with the enthusiam when it's presented as recommended practice and fact for unsuspecting noobs to follow

[Michael]

i know you have told me before, on another site that is, sorry to sound ignorant, perhaps its me santa, why wont the algae get into the dt and cause problems there, i did try to look for the link earlier, this was my main concern, please refresh my mind on this santa, many thanks again

[aqua180]

man ,you fokes are to uptight lol
its only a opinion. <"))))>{

[herring_fish]

I am a big fan of the T5s. I have four of them on my horizontal dump bucket. They’re cool and bright so I can go without anything between the lamps and the water line. I may go back to my evaporative unit with a halogen lamp if it is needed but for that last few years of operation, I didn’t need the cooling because the living room was cool and the air interaction with the splash was enough.

I will cut and bent some thin clear plastic to cover the socket areas only. This will cut down on the salt build up, at the connection, from air born partials. I know that salt is left behind after evaporation but there are still some super small droplets of salt water that float around. Of course there is the occasional accidental splash.

Anyway, I still expect to take the lights out and cleaning everything about every one or two years.

You know, some people will never be convinced that ATSs are “all that�. My scrubber has worked great for me, for many years. That’s all that is important to me.

I am setting up a fuge for my new tank now so I see it’s value but I didn’t have room for one in my very small tank cabinet in my living room. I had a scrubber, a plenum in the bottom of tank and a quarter sock of carbon that I dropped in the dump bucket. That’s it, that’s all. I hardly ever changed much water and my turbo grazers all starved to death.

On the other hand, skimmers work too. Mine is in the garage but it worked.