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Unread 05/11/2015, 09:47 PM   #1
bower23
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We need a new Controller Ecotech Please Save Us!

Ok... first off I've been out of the hobby for a while and just got back into it. My last controller was a ReefKeeper 2. So now that I'm back the first thing I needed to do was decide if my old equipment was worth keeping and if not, what do I replace it with? Most of today's components have their own internal or remote controls. Just a couple of examples AI Hydra, Radion, Vortech pumps, auto top off units, and dosing pumps. You almost don't need a controller at all. I've had my new system hooked up to a DJ light bar for over a month and everything worked just fine. My only problem is I didn't know my PH and I couldn't have back up controls for my heater. Plus I wanted to add extra float valves for backups and control of my BRS dosing pumps. I hate plug in timers. But in reality everything could have been done without a controller. This would have been crazy 5+ years ago. Nothing had internal controls. So my point is, that if you want to sell controllers you need to step up the game. From what I can tell, Digital Aquatics are asleep at the wheel and I guess they will be gone in the near future. Nothing new coming from them in a while. Now Neptune.. yes they are innovating and probably at the top of the food chain right now. I bought one. And after 12 hours and 3 hours with tech support, I'm still not up and running. Not to mention having to send them $150 for them to send me a replacement part. Yep their fault and I've spent $680 and still not working. I'm suppose to get the $150 back once I return the old unit but in the mean time I'm out $150. Not cool. I've read a ton of comments on people having problems with updates and not connecting. I love the idea of being able to get online to monitor and control everything but if software updates crash your system can you really trust it? The customer support staff was nice but it took 3 hours of trying the same thing 30 times to figure out it's a bad unit. This process should have taken 5 minutes. Just saying.. Meanwhile I got one of the new Vortech MP40 quiet drives and it arrived not so quiet. Like a boat motor. Called Ecotech and in 5 minutes I was giving my address for a new wet side. They sent it out with a return shipping label and a free gift for my time. Fast and no hassle. Granted it wasn't as expensive of a part but I've had several calls into Ecotech or Aqua Illuminations and those guys are customer service at it's best.
Yes yes so what is my point? I would really like to see another controller product on the market, and yes from Ecotech/AI. You guys might be like, "so what"? Well I'm a product designer and I know companies do listen to feedback. Well at least they should. Sometimes it takes someone to say, "Hey Ecotech build it and they will come". Now will anyone from there read this? I have no clue but it makes me feel better by posting this and at least it's not another, "which skimmer is best". Got to give me credit for originality.
And if we are going to ask them to make it, what do we want it to be? Me personally I want a system that is designed to WORK, not designed to make me buy more stuff. I would have swore but can't remember if I'm aloud. lol Buy a module here, buy a module there... why didn't you think of putting it in the main unit in the first place? Oh ya to get me to spend more money. And I'm sorry but at $530 for a simple brain no smarter than a MP3 player and a $15 power bar, that is just a rip off. I can buy a HP laptop for $530. Input in - display, power outlet on/off. Rocket science. So if I'm going to pay $530 I want enough outlets to run a typical system; not just short so I have to buy another power block, and all the input outlets we would need for that system. I can totally see a Nano, Reef, and Pro systems. I'll focus on the Reef or midsize system as an example. The typical system most would need and I'm ok with around a $500 price tag for this system. Ok how many outlets do we need? Typical system; ATO, return, powerheads, skimmer, 2 dosing pumps, heater, light, reactor, and sump light. So right off the bat all systems that only give 8 outlets are not enough. Say 10-12 total on a base system. You know all of you have a simple power block under your stand. Nano could have less because you usually don't have a sump or dosing pumps so you could get away with 6. Pro system maybe two 10-12 outlet blocks. But 8 just isn't enough and they know it.
Next is monitoring. Reef or middle level system. What would you like to see on it? Personally; PH, ORP, Salinity, Temp, float/switch inputs, leak detection.. you might have others. But they should all have BUILT IN PORTS! Totally understandable that you might have to buy the actual probes or switches but the unit should have them built in. No buying another module to control something that a $530 controller should have already. Ridiculous. If I want to add salinity probe to my system I should just have to buy the probe and plug it in. Not run more wires and mount another module. More money and more possible areas for problems.
Now... wireless. Built it in! And one of the reasons I recommend Ecotech for this project. Beside excellent customer support, built in the USA, they already have wireless control of Vortech pumps, and two of the most popular LED lights out there. No more Director or more modules. Have the controller with built in wireless that can automatically connect to any Vortech, Hydra, or Radion. Imagine all the wires and clutter you could eliminate! Wow! Now to take it up a notch, come out with wireless feeders, webcams, and dosing pumps. A controller with built in wireless has endless possibilities for new products. Just plug in the power to the controller and connect.
Display.. do we really need one? Now this can be an add on. But again build a port for it on the main unit. No module. I like to see what my tank is doing via the display but if the unit is wireless, I would just use my phone or computer. I believe both Reefkeeper and Apex you can do online or phone control but connecting and updating seem to be a huge issue. This I don't have a lot of advise other than make it simple and make it work. Personally I would like to buy an iPad Mini and mount it right beside my tank just for tank control and calendar for scheduling maintenance. Something I've been wanting since day one.
Now I'm sure I'll get some nasty grams for this post but my honest intent is to push the market to come out with something done right instead of done to cheat us into spending more money. If you want me to spend more money, come out with a skimmer that wirelessly tells my wireless controller that the cup is full. Or a product that eliminates all the clutter of modules and wires. Trust me Neptune and Digital Aquatics we know when we are being ripped off. Unfortunately we can't do anything about it at the moment. Hopefully someone... Ecotech, will step up and do the right thing. Because honestly systems today do not 'NEED' a controller. So it has to be really compelling benefit to buy one.

And anyone that wants to step up to the plate, let me know, I'll sign a waver and give you all my ideas I have to help. I've designed thousands of products and know I could help. Just my two cents. Let me know your thoughts. And if you are going to give reasons why not this will work, please add how it can be changed to work. The goal is better products to help this wonderful hobby. And if you are like me and what them to make something, let them know. Sometimes the only way to get new products is to ask for them.


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Unread 05/11/2015, 10:04 PM   #2
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Oh and it's just my guess but I think the reasons why software updates and web controls have problems is that both systems had internal controls before web controls. So they are trying to build on to an existing system that wasn't designed for internet controls. Again, I may be wrong and I'm sure someone will say I am but I've worked for companies that tried to do the exact same thing and had the exact same problems. Their best bet is to design the system with the internet controls in mind from the start and the display module controls to be the same. It's like building a single level home and then trying to add a second story. It would be way easier if the house was designed as a two story from the start. Which is where I think a new player could have an advantage. Existing companies have a hard time throwing out all the old programing and starting from scratch. Usually a suggestion like that gets you closer to the door. Again, just my 2 cents.


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Unread 05/11/2015, 10:49 PM   #3
maynardjames
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I agree 100%


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Unread 05/11/2015, 11:13 PM   #4
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Agree in principal but think your price estimate for a QUALITY product (reliable, easy to set up and use, bulletproof update process, easy to recover when things do go wrong), with all that functionality already built in, might be a little optimistic.

And your wish list seemed to only include switchable sockets so you will need to add 1-10V control interfaces as well.

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Unread 05/11/2015, 11:34 PM   #5
bower23
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Originally Posted by Steve Atkins View Post
Agree in principal but think your price estimate for a QUALITY product (reliable, easy to set up and use, bulletproof update process, easy to recover when things do go wrong), with all that functionality already built in, might be a little optimistic.

And your wish list seemed to only include switchable sockets so you will need to add 1-10V control interfaces as well.

Steve
Maybe $650 max but I still think it can be done cheaper. We are just use to companies over charging us as we have no other option but to over pay.


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Unread 05/11/2015, 11:47 PM   #6
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And because paying premiums for controllers is the norm there won't be a company that would do otherwise. Especially not ecotech.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 12:10 AM   #7
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I think you're vastly underestimating the "product design" that goes into an electronic device with processors, networking and integration of multiple nonstandardized peripherals. It's not really even remotely comparable to the design required for a simple mechanical device with a few moving parts.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 06:27 AM   #8
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Why look at GHL?


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Unread 05/12/2015, 06:40 AM   #9
Wazzel
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Echotech live and reef link are great platforms for control. It just remains to be seen if echotech will start making the hardware and software to interface with it soon. It would surprise me if they did not have something cooking.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 06:43 AM   #10
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OK, I'll play devil's advocate and disagree 100%. Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and who's to say that any new venture wouldn't be plagued by a whole different set of problems. OP clearly got a bad unit, which happens; and while I don't discount the frustrations that can accrue from such an experience, my own with the Apex is that it's a solid piece of kit. Mine might fail tomorrow, but beyond some initial setup issues, its been 18 months of smooth sailing for me so far.

As to the Neptune 'exchange' policy, many vendors will place a nominal charge on your credit card to be refunded once the broken item is returned. It may be irritating, but in this day of very low interest rates, the net cost is negligible - unless, of course, you don't return the broken one .

I agree that ETM has excellent customer service, but they are hardly perfect. I ordered and paid for a QD upgrade to my vortech pump and it took over two months to arrive - talk about 'cost of money'. And if you look, you will see plenty of people pulling their hair out over ReefLink problems.

It does seem as if both Neptune and ETM are broadening their product portfolio for more and more overlap. Former now makes propeller pumps and the latter has ReefLink and ETM live. Whether ETM extends into a discreet controller I cannot say. I am sure they have evaluated the possibility, though the installed base of Apex is not an inconsiderable barrier.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 06:52 AM   #11
bower23
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And because paying premiums for controllers is the norm there won't be a company that would do otherwise. Especially not ecotech.
True but it doesn't hurt to ask.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 06:55 AM   #12
bower23
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I think you're vastly underestimating the "product design" that goes into an electronic device with processors, networking and integration of multiple nonstandardized peripherals. It's not really even remotely comparable to the design required for a simple mechanical device with a few moving parts.
No I'm not underestimating it at all. Sure whoever designs these needs to be smarter than me. But I guarantee there are plenty of people capable of doing it. And just because currently I'm a knife maker, don't assume that is the only thing I've designed.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 07:03 AM   #13
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OK, I'll play devil's advocate and disagree 100%. Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and who's to say that any new venture wouldn't be plagued by a whole different set of problems. OP clearly got a bad unit, which happens; and while I don't discount the frustrations that can accrue from such an experience, my own with the Apex is that it's a solid piece of kit. Mine might fail tomorrow, but beyond some initial setup issues, its been 18 months of smooth sailing for me so far.

As to the Neptune 'exchange' policy, many vendors will place a nominal charge on your credit card to be refunded once the broken item is returned. It may be irritating, but in this day of very low interest rates, the net cost is negligible - unless, of course, you don't return the broken one .

I agree that ETM has excellent customer service, but they are hardly perfect. I ordered and paid for a QD upgrade to my vortech pump and it took over two months to arrive - talk about 'cost of money'. And if you look, you will see plenty of people pulling their hair out over ReefLink problems.

It does seem as if both Neptune and ETM are broadening their product portfolio for more and more overlap. Former now makes propeller pumps and the latter has ReefLink and ETM live. Whether ETM extends into a discreet controller I cannot say. I am sure they have evaluated the possibility, though the installed base of Apex is not an inconsiderable barrier.

Yes no company is perfect agreed and you can always say the exact opposite of anything anyone says. But again, I would much rather have Ecotech do a controller because they could build in control instead of buying more 'modules'. Now if Neptune came out with this exact request and could build in control directly for Vortech, Radion, and Hydra products, great. But they have already proven they want you to buy modules and spend more money. So someone needs to knock them off their horse. It's all hypothetical but something I thought worth considering.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 09:02 AM   #14
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Why exactly do they need to be knocked off their horse? There's a reason they're the market leader. I get that you're frustrated you got a bad unit, but as someone said earlier in the thread the Apex is a solid product and you had some bad luck. I don't own any Ecotech products because customer service or no customer service, I think their pumps are overpriced and I see threads constantly from people having to replace one side or the other. No thanks!


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Unread 05/12/2015, 09:10 AM   #15
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Why exactly do they need to be knocked off their horse? There's a reason they're the market leader. I get that you're frustrated you got a bad unit, but as someone said earlier in the thread the Apex is a solid product and you had some bad luck. I don't own any Ecotech products because customer service or no customer service, I think their pumps are overpriced and I see threads constantly from people having to replace one side or the other. No thanks!
You didn't read.. because I want a product with all the functions built in. You have to spend an extra $200-$400 to get all the modules to make things work. It only comes with 8 outlets.. bla bla bla. I'm asking for a better designed product. I really don't care who makes it but I think Ecotech is in a perfect position to do so. And like I said, this is just my 2 cents based off my experience. Of course Apex has lots of happy customers, they wouldn't be selling product if they sucked but I believe we have all got use to the status quo of having to buy more and more add ons for what should be built in. If no one ever asked for something better you will never get anything better.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 09:45 AM   #16
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But they have already proven they want you to buy modules and spend more money.
Of course - isn't the goal for any for-profit company to make money? I have always found the perspective that companies shouldn't turn a profit ironic, considering that most of us have stocks in our investment portfolios that appreciate based on the economic performance of said companies. I actually much prefer the 'module' approach that Neptune has taken with the Apex. That way I can buy what I want, not buy what I don't want; and not feel that I'm paying for stuff that I don't need. For example, I have four EB8 power strips. Does that mean that Neptune should make one that comes standard with 32 outlets and that other folks should happily pay the premium for them being 'included' even if they might only need 8? Sorry, that dog don't hunt!


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Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

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Unread 05/12/2015, 09:54 AM   #17
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Why look at GHL?
Exactly.
Love my Profilux. Easy to set up, comes with all the ports, is upgradeable at home, built like a tank, never goes down.




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Unread 05/12/2015, 10:06 AM   #18
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Of course - isn't the goal for any for-profit company to make money? I have always found the perspective that companies shouldn't turn a profit ironic, considering that most of us have stocks in our investment portfolios that appreciate based on the economic performance of said companies. I actually much prefer the 'module' approach that Neptune has taken with the Apex. That way I can buy what I want, not buy what I don't want; and not feel that I'm paying for stuff that I don't need. For example, I have four EB8 power strips. Does that mean that Neptune should make one that comes standard with 32 outlets and that other folks should happily pay the premium for them being 'included' even if they might only need 8? Sorry, that dog don't hunt!
Of course they should make money and if you think they can't make what I've suggested and still make money that is just silly. And not all sizes fits all but the cost difference between adding a port; such as a salinity port, is minimal to the cost of making a whole other module, separate board, additional bus cable, plastic housing, packaging, etc. You are talking about the difference of $5 to make and $40 to make. And the business proposition for a company like Ecotech to make an affordable version is wireless control to their other products. Meaning more orders, more profit. If Ecotech sold a controller they would sell more Vortechs oppose to people buying Apex and Koralia.

Why do I get the feeling everyone is saying it's a bad idea because they like what they bought and want to justify what they bought instead of thinking outside the box on what might have been a better option? I didn't make this thread to talk about why this 'isn't' a good idea. If you don't like it, then what could be a better product? If you like your Apex then a simple, "I love mine, wouldn't change a thing". There are plenty of you out there.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 10:10 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by d2mini View Post
Exactly.
Love my Profilux. Easy to set up, comes with all the ports, is upgradeable at home, built like a tank, never goes down.




www.everydayreef.com
Thanks, I'll have to check that out.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 10:13 AM   #20
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Exactly.
Love my Profilux. Easy to set up, comes with all the ports, is upgradeable at home, built like a tank, never goes down.
What he said. I have two of them.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 12:40 PM   #21
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Of course they should make money and if you think they can't make what I've suggested and still make money that is just silly.
Would you please take the time to actually read (and understand) what I wrote! I did not say that money could not be made by offering a soup-to-nuts controller, simply that the installed base of Apex controllers is a potential barrier to entry and that I prefer the 'a la carte' approach that Neptune takes. I'm not sure you necessarily appreciate how relatively small the addressable market is for these things. Although I obviously don't know for sure, I also said in a prior post that I'd imagine ETM has done a business plan for a controller and that they have not released one speaks volumes. Maybe they will next month, and we will see; but I doubt it.


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Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
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Unread 05/12/2015, 01:08 PM   #22
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I like the 'a la carte' approach of Apex because I only end up purchasing the features I need. If I ended up needing a full featured unit over time I understand that it will cost me more. I started with a base unit and I've added more modules as I upgraded my tank.

I see that the OP has had a bad experience but I have an Apex and i have friends with Apex and we have not had any issues with it. I've seen salt creep on the unit and it's still humming along. These things are built to last.

I agree that you have to be a bit of a geek to get it up and running but once I did it's been running ever since.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 01:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Would you please take the time to actually read (and understand) what I wrote! I did not say that money could not be made by offering a soup-to-nuts controller, simply that the installed base of Apex controllers is a potential barrier to entry and that I prefer the 'a la carte' approach that Neptune takes. I'm not sure you necessarily appreciate how relatively small the addressable market is for these things. Although I obviously don't know for sure, I also said in a prior post that I'd imagine ETM has done a business plan for a controller and that they have not released one speaks volumes. Maybe they will next month, and we will see; but I doubt it.

"I have always found the perspective that companies shouldn't turn a profit ironic"

Sounded to me that you implied I meant for them to not make a profit. And if I misunderstood what you meant, maybe you should have written it differently. Whatever, I have more important things to do than to argue. I was trying to help the hobby with an idea. I'll leave you to your "what skimmer is best" conversations.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 01:31 PM   #24
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Part of the issue with an "all-in-one" unit is that while it could be made to be compatible with all the major players of today, it could become obsolete very quickly with the development of new technology. By utilizing modules, Neptune is making their products so that they can grow into future technology without being forced to scrap their current product.

Just imagine all the frustrated owners of older Apex units if they had to go out and buy a brand new unit because they wanted to upgrade to control modern lights, but their old unit couldn't be updated. The current solution allows for cost effective upgrades.

I agree that an all-in-one solution would be nice, but I also think that it would end up falling short due to the constant advance of technology.


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Unread 05/12/2015, 01:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by oseymour View Post
I like the 'a la carte' approach of Apex because I only end up purchasing the features I need. If I ended up needing a full featured unit over time I understand that it will cost me more. I started with a base unit and I've added more modules as I upgraded my tank.

I see that the OP has had a bad experience but I have an Apex and i have friends with Apex and we have not had any issues with it. I've seen salt creep on the unit and it's still humming along. These things are built to last.

I agree that you have to be a bit of a geek to get it up and running but once I did it's been running ever since.
Yep and I never meant that there isn't a place for Apex and they should close shop. I just meant I would like to see another player in the market and with a different approach. Personally I would like it all built in but that is just me.


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