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05/12/2015, 01:45 PM | #26 | |
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05/12/2015, 08:51 PM | #27 |
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This is pretty amusing. There is absolutely no way at all that a company could make a reasonable profit on an overall product line in the controller market at $600 let alone any less than that and include everything that the OP is asking for. Yes it is correct that it only costs $3 to add this connector or that connector to an all in one style of unit. However, what you are not taking into consideration is the programming and integrated hardware necessary to make that $3 socket do what it is designed to do. As mentioned in another post, this market is too small and the shear number of units that would need to be sold to make this endeavor worthwhile would be massive. It is nowhere near as simple as it may seem. I am a beta tester for a handful of different electronics companies and it can be mind numbing how much effort goes into even the simplest of things. That effort on the part of programmers costs lots of money. I would guess that even if this magical all in one $550 controller would make it to market, at least 75% of the current owners of controllers would not buy it. Why would we when we are happy with what we have?
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Dave My 130g tank: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2387989 Current Tank Info: 130g build in progress |
05/12/2015, 09:53 PM | #28 | |
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05/12/2015, 10:01 PM | #29 |
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Ok it's obvious this thread is not going to go anywhere. Everyone is too busy to say why this will not work. I've been through innovation training as a product designer to think outside the box and I guess the general public is so confined into there known space anything outside that space is ridiculous. It's funny that not one of the reasons why not even make any logical sense. Oh it will be too hard and cost too much and no one would buy it. I'm sure they said that about the first iPhone or the first laptop. A wireless controlled LED light would have been crazy talk 10 years ago. Oh boy I want a controller with built in wireless and the correct ports, I must be on drugs or live in crazy town. Again, it's a known fact in the design community that people will defend a product they own just to justify their decision even if it's wrong. We see it in test groups all the time. Oh well, I tried.
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05/12/2015, 10:20 PM | #30 | |
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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05/12/2015, 10:43 PM | #31 |
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Why do I want to subsidize the cost of development to support products I don't own?
My lights are Kessils that use a standard cable connected to the VDM port on my Apex. I added an additional VDM module for more ports to connect a DIY cable to control my pumps. I added a Breakout Box for float switches (and potentially may add switches to the BOB to turn lights on and off when I open cabinet doors). I added a Leak Detection module and two sensors. Again, why would I want to subsidize the cost of development for a bunch of products and brands I don't own, in your hypothetical controller? Those costs would be folded into the cost of the controller. What happens when I want to add more switches and other equipment than the controller supports? Do I have to buy an expansion (module) or am I SOL? Please stop flinging around aspersions that we're all stupid and only you can think outside of the box. The people here, who actually use the hardware, have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. There are many things that are not and never will be wireless capable (e.g. float switches). So you're either going to run out of ports, or you're going to need to buy... gasp... Modules!
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"Get a reef tank!" they said. "It'll be relaxing!" they said. 65g mixed reef, 30g display fuge, 20L sump/pod fuge, ATI 4x24 + 2 Kessil A360NEs, Aquamaxx EM100, Gyre 130 |
05/12/2015, 11:11 PM | #32 | |
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05/12/2015, 11:20 PM | #33 | |
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05/12/2015, 11:26 PM | #34 | |
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05/12/2015, 11:32 PM | #35 | |
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Take a look at all the posts in just the past week of people having problems programming their controllers and lights, or getting two lights to work together or wirelessly connect. These are with products that have already been on the market literally for years, and made by companies like AI and Ecotech! And they still don't have the kinks worked out. Yet in your estimation, integration and networking challenges like these can all be overcome with a "simple software update". That's absurd. If you spend too much time thinking outside the box, then the box goes out of its way to make you look dumb whenever you poke your head back in with a new idea.
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Your algae is not special. Current Tank Info: TBD ADA 120-P SPS NLPS |
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05/12/2015, 11:36 PM | #36 | |
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05/12/2015, 11:39 PM | #37 |
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Seems like you want more for the same price. More outlets. Wireless built-in (reasonable). Support for all of the different light/pump setups. Breakout box. pH/ORP/temp/Salinity ports.
I can see how paying $500+ for a controller and then needing to add modules to get all the functionality that you want is expensive, but the market has already established that it is willing to pay the price. It's not about how much it costs for R&D and production, it's what the people are willing to pay for your product. Even if Apex (or anyone else) is able to produce exactly what you want and still turn a profit, they'd just price it at a premium for the added features. What you're asking for is for a company to produce a superior product and price it at a price that is lower than what the market is willing to pay. Essentially you want more for less. Also, modularity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially in the aquarium industry. It sucks to have to buy all these add-on's to get the functionality you want, but there are just too many different proprietary connections to have it all in one base unit. Take lighting for example. The main players in LED are AI, Ecotech, and Kessil. All of which have their own wireless protocol (Kessil AP700 is wireless I believe, but the A360WE's use an analog signal via 3.5mm cable). What happens when these need to be updated on the software side? You say it's a simple upgrade, but juggling all of the bug fixes and updates for just these three fixtures is very difficult and time consuming for a single company. On top of that, I'm assuming you'll be using a phone/tablet/browser, then you'll have to update all the separate devices in different software languages for all of the different software versions (iOS 7 vs iOS 8, Jelly bean vs Ice cream sandwich, Chrome vs Firefox vs Safari). It's not that easy. What about the Chinese fixtures that MANY people use? Or the smaller, but quality companies like Nano Box? What if a new player comes into the LED game and gains popularity, say if Jebao released a light. If only there was a way to accommodate all this diversity and not have the consumer pay for all the connections/features they want or do not want. Sorry to pile it on, but you do bring up some good points and this is how innovation starts. I just don't think you've thought it through all the way. A more reasonable approach for Neptune is to update (not overhaul) their current controller with built in wireless and maybe have some more ports built into the base unit. This is basically the Digital Aquatics Archon controller and (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not doing well. |
05/12/2015, 11:39 PM | #38 |
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Yes, but how many switches will it support? Is it infinitely expandable?
My tank (not a nano) has a return, skimmer, two LED lights, circulation pump, fuge light, and ATO. I still have outlets open on my EB8. Reactors are run off a manifold. I don't want to pay for extra outlets I'll never use. If I need more, I can pick up an EB4 or EB8.
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"Get a reef tank!" they said. "It'll be relaxing!" they said. 65g mixed reef, 30g display fuge, 20L sump/pod fuge, ATI 4x24 + 2 Kessil A360NEs, Aquamaxx EM100, Gyre 130 |
05/12/2015, 11:39 PM | #39 | |
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Hey look, first off don't call me dumb. Yes there will always be problems with any company but if you had the right people working a software update can correct the problems. That's why they have software updates.. because it fixes problems. So it's not absurd. Go stick your head back in a box. |
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05/12/2015, 11:47 PM | #40 | |
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Nothing Digital Aquatics is doing is going well. |
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05/12/2015, 11:51 PM | #41 | |
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05/12/2015, 11:57 PM | #42 | |
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Edit: Money maybe not be an issue for some, but for most it's pretty important. Anyone can make a better controller, but why do it if it ends up costing so much that no one would buy it. |
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05/12/2015, 11:59 PM | #43 |
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Love your ideas man, keep em coming! I hope more folks build up on them. Your main post was quite hard to read so I hope this summarizes it (please correct or expand/expound):
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05/13/2015, 12:00 AM | #44 |
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Ok so obviously I hit a nerve... just trying to suggest a new product evidently is demon work. Kinda like that Progressive commercial where they keep killing Flo. I'll send my recommendation to Ecotech and see what they think. Is there road blocks or reasons YOU may not like it? Of course. My shoes don't fit you, my pants don't fit you but someone made them and I bought them. New products get designed, manufactured, and sold every day. They don't stop because it might be hard or it will take time. I'm sure if it makes sense for Ecotech to make a controller they will. I'm sure they have a whole team of people working on new product. Neptune is not a bad product and I'm sure it fits many people. I bought one and I hope it fits my needs for now. It wouldn't make sense for them to build an all in one as they don't make any of the other components. Ecotech isn't going to call up Neptune and say hey we are making a new light and they is how you need to change your product. But if Ecotech was making the controller, I bet they would make sure it paired up with their lights and pumps. Anyhow... I've loved this forum since 2004 and this is the first time I've felt the urge to never come back. So before I start to hate this forum, I'm going to ask the Mods to please remove this thread. It's not worth the hassle. I want to continue to like this forum and contribute, although I guess I should just keep my mouth shut. Bummer...
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05/13/2015, 12:04 AM | #45 | |
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05/13/2015, 12:06 AM | #46 | |
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05/13/2015, 12:14 AM | #47 | |||
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And I politely disagree with you on your comment about Digital Aquatics. The RKE/RKL and Herpkeeper lines are still going strong, still being made, used, sold, etc. Are these units perfect and address every need? Nope, but nobody else is either. The new Archon is definitely going at least "well". Is it ready for prime time? Some say yes and some say no. By the way, you should actually look at some of the controller packages that are available. If you are willing to go up to $700 for your controller purchase, what is currently available isn't too far off between the Apex, Archon, and Reef Angel. $700 for all you want? No, but fairly close depending on what you need. None of these companies are making millions off of us so I would say their margins are probably pretty tight as it is. I just think while what you want is great, it is simply unrealistic inside or outside "the box".
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05/13/2015, 12:20 AM | #48 | |
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05/13/2015, 12:22 AM | #49 | |
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Don't be discouraged from this forum, it contains a wealth of information and it's only because people contribute to discussions like this. Some ideas are a hit and miss, and it seems like the general consensus is that this is more of a miss. That does not mean that the opinion can sway or one party is right or wrong, it's just an opinion. Besides, the general public has been wrong before (especially when it comes to sports betting lol). |
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05/13/2015, 12:28 AM | #50 | ||
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Addit: By the way, I work in the software development industry. Software doesn't come cheap, nor does the QA, licensing, etc. that would be needed along with every new product that would need to be supported.
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"Get a reef tank!" they said. "It'll be relaxing!" they said. 65g mixed reef, 30g display fuge, 20L sump/pod fuge, ATI 4x24 + 2 Kessil A360NEs, Aquamaxx EM100, Gyre 130 |
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