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Unread 05/13/2015, 12:30 AM   #51
bower23
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Originally Posted by itzonlithai View Post
Oh, sorry. I know I used Neptune as a sole example, but I was just defending the modular design as opposed to having one unit with all the major players having controls built in. My point still stands that he support, even on the software side, for such a unit would be too much. Then there's the issue about paying for a controller that controls my Radions, but not needing (but still paying for) controls for AI.

Don't be discouraged from this forum, it contains a wealth of information and it's only because people contribute to discussions like this. Some ideas are a hit and miss, and it seems like the general consensus is that this is more of a miss. That does not mean that the opinion can sway or one party is right or wrong, it's just an opinion. Besides, the general public has been wrong before (especially when it comes to sports betting lol).
Sorry I have to disagree with the support being too much. It should actually cost a company (Ecotech) less than it would cost Neptune. They both have support staff but Neptune has to have people trained to support the unit and also support modules that control a different companies controller. If Ecotech made the controller, it would be far easier for them to program and support the unit as it would have been designed by the same people. It's like bringing in a Honda to a Ford repair shop (Neptune) or me bringing in my Honda into a Honda shop (Ecotech) Hope that makes sense. Also, as Radions and Hydras are owned by the same company, it would make sense to have them all controlled the same way. Yes this would take money as they just merged but it would make sense in the long run.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 12:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Coelli View Post
Well, if you're wondering why your thread went south, here's one example:



For someone who has the products you have, that's great and I can see why you want an integrated system. You just went further than that in your posts and some of your comments were snarky toward anyone who doesn't have the same needs/wants as you and finds the Apex already suits them fine.
I'm not snarky towards anyone that is happy with there current system. I said that somewhere. I'm snarky of the people that just want to bash my idea just because it doesn't fit them. If you are happy and like what you have, great. Live free! lol But I'm not happy with the status quo and would like to see someone stir up the pot. I know once I get my defective Apex up and running I'll probably love it. But do I still think it can be better? Yes absolutely. If Ecotech posted they were going to do exactly what I asked tomorrow, I would sell my Apex in a heart beat. If they don't, I will still enjoy my Apex and probably buy a bunch of modules and add a bunch of stuff I don't need to it. Just like thousands of other people. But I guarantee someday someone will come out with a simpler, all built in, affordable, wireless, controller. It's inevitable. It may be 10 years from now. But it shouldn't be.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 12:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bower23 View Post
Sorry I have to disagree with the support being too much. It should actually cost a company (Ecotech) less than it would cost Neptune. They both have support staff but Neptune has to have people trained to support the unit and also support modules that control a different companies controller. If Ecotech made the controller, it would be far easier for them to program and support the unit as it would have been designed by the same people. It's like bringing in a Honda to a Ford repair shop (Neptune) or me bringing in my Honda into a Honda shop (Ecotech) Hope that makes sense. Also, as Radions and Hydras are owned by the same company, it would make sense to have them all controlled the same way. Yes this would take money as they just merged but it would make sense in the long run.
Sure, so you want an aquarium controller made by Ecotech to control their lights and pumps. That's reasonable. So basically something like Apex with the WXM module built in. Then include AI also, because Ecotech bought them out.

You're still excluding a large amount of people that use other brands of LED's and pumps. Ecotech and AI may be popular, but they represent the mid-high end market. I would venture to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there are just as many or more people using other fixtures (mainly chinese fixtures). Same for the vortech pumps. A lot of people use them, but what about the ever so popular Jebaos or Gyres or any of the other generic powerheads available? The only way to accommodate everybody is to use the modular system. No one or two or even three companies have enough of a marketshare to have all their products built into one controller. Ironically, if there was one company that had a huge market share in one niche in the aquarium trade it would be Neptune. IMO the modular system makes sense and is not as much of a cash grab that you made it out to be.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 12:55 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by itzonlithai View Post
Sure, so you want an aquarium controller made by Ecotech to control their lights and pumps. That's reasonable. So basically something like Apex with the WXM module built in. Then include AI also, because Ecotech bought them out.

You're still excluding a large amount of people that use other brands of LED's and pumps. Ecotech and AI may be popular, but they represent the mid-high end market. I would venture to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there are just as many or more people using other fixtures (mainly chinese fixtures). Same for the vortech pumps. A lot of people use them, but what about the ever so popular Jebaos or Gyres or any of the other generic powerheads available? The only way to accommodate everybody is to use the modular system. No one or two or even three companies have enough of a marketshare to have all their products built into one controller. Ironically, if there was one company that had a huge market share in one niche in the aquarium trade it would be Neptune. IMO the modular system makes sense and is not as much of a cash grab that you made it out to be.
I never said this would fit everyone... And Neptune doesn't fit everyone. Do they make separate modules for those Chinese lights you refer to? No. But they do for Radion and AI. Why? Because even Neptune recognizes they are big enough players to make a module for. This was never meant to salve all the worlds problems but if the bulk of LED lights being sold is AI and Radions and the bulk of pumps are Vortech... all with wireless control... wouldn't the logical next step to make a power bar (controller) to pair them to? Of course Ecotech might not want to get into that market. Totally up to them. It was just a thought.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 06:23 AM   #55
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Btw, GHL can control Tunze pumps out of the box.
If you want to control Vortechs you can buy the module.
They can also control their own Mitra leds out of the box.
But ya, there is no way to make everyone happy.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 06:52 AM   #56
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I suspect if ETM go into the controller game it would be software based through ecosmart live with communication interface modules. It would totally surprise me if they had a "brain box" like apex. Again, IF they get in to the controller game it would be shooting themselves in the foot to not make interface modules for other kit, including analog kit.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 07:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bower23 View Post
Again I said for all of you that are happy with the current stuff fine.
Oh, I see. You'll only 'accept' logical arguments for existing controllers from folks who are unhappy with their current choice . Well, you were right about one thing, this thread isn't going anywhere - at least, nowhere useful. And FWIW, your suggestion isn't 'out of the box thinking' its actually 'in the box thinking' .........


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Unread 05/13/2015, 07:40 AM   #58
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There are many things that are not and never will be wireless capable (e.g. float switches). So you're either going to run out of ports, or you're going to need to buy... gasp... Modules!
While float switches might not be wireless capable, one could have a BOB communicate wirelessly with the controller. I doubt the market is large enough to justify the R&D on such a component, though.

I, for one, like the modularity of my Apex. My system was (and will be again in a few weeks) on two floors, so I can attach some components in the basement, such as my ATO components and DOS, and other things on my tank, such as Tunze pumps.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 07:47 AM   #59
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One other thing to consider .....

I have attempted to eliminate as much 'failure potential' from my system as possible though the use of select redundancies. The one thing that consistently worries me is the fact that much of my system runs through a single point of failure: Apex. Modularity has many advantages, but it also 'diversifies' failure points that an all-in-one would not. But, I am happy with my Apex, so I suppose this logic doesn't count.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 07:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Oh, I see. You'll only 'accept' logical arguments for existing controllers from folks who are unhappy with their current choice . Well, you were right about one thing, this thread isn't going anywhere - at least, nowhere useful. And FWIW, your suggestion isn't 'out of the box thinking' its actually 'in the box thinking' .........
Whatever dude. Says you. I still think it's a good idea and I don't really care if everyone else doesn't. That includes you.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 08:00 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
One other thing to consider .....

I have attempted to eliminate as much 'failure potential' from my system as possible though the use of select redundancies. The one thing that consistently worries me is the fact that much of my system runs through a single point of failure: Apex. Modularity has many advantages, but it also 'diversifies' failure points that an all-in-one would not. But, I am happy with my Apex, so I suppose this logic doesn't count.
So go be happy... again this is for people that want a new design. If you do not, they why are you here other than to drag down the topic?


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Unread 05/13/2015, 08:15 AM   #62
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Bower-

From EcoTech I wanted to thank you for your feedback. We DO listen to our customers because we are fellow hobbyists and are surfing the same boards, attending the same events, and keeping the same organisms in our tanks. While I can't comment about projects that we may or may not have in development, there's no doubt that some of the points you've hit upon are very relevant.

Don't let negativity bring you down either. I don't think people are necessarily being mean to you in this thread, they're just providing their own opinion and it may differ a bit from yours. Keep up the suggestions, ideas, and desires for us or for anyone else. It matters to this hobby.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 08:35 AM   #63
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Bower-

From EcoTech I wanted to thank you for your feedback. We DO listen to our customers because we are fellow hobbyists and are surfing the same boards, attending the same events, and keeping the same organisms in our tanks. While I can't comment about projects that we may or may not have in development, there's no doubt that some of the points you've hit upon are very relevant.

Don't let negativity bring you down either. I don't think people are necessarily being mean to you in this thread, they're just providing their own opinion and it may differ a bit from yours. Keep up the suggestions, ideas, and desires for us or for anyone else. It matters to this hobby.
Thank you. As a designer, when I step back and look at my tank, it just make logical sense. Now that may not mean it makes sense for your business or corporate goals but personally I would love it. I totally understand if not everyone agrees. I didn't think everyone would. I was hoping for people to add on or suggest better ways of doing it. Instead I got people feeling I was personally attacking their current purchase and got all mean. It's unfortunate. I still believe there would be a large market (relatively speaking) for such a product. Some people just can't be convinced until they see other good feedback. Hopefully you guys at least bring the topic up in a meeting. Even if it's dismissed, then I did my job. Let the haters hate, I really don't care. I didn't get to be one of the top designers in my field by stopping every time someone told me it was a bad idea. Those bad ideas now have patent numbers and earn $20m annually. Anyhow, time to go back to work. Thanks.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 08:43 AM   #64
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Let the haters hate, I really don't care. I didn't get to be one of the top designers in my field by stopping every time someone told me it was a bad idea. Those bad ideas now have patent numbers and earn $20m annually. Anyhow, time to go back to work. Thanks.
Your ideas were not bad. Not even remotely.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 09:02 AM   #65
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Your ideas were not bad. Not even remotely.
Thank you! And I just had another one. I would like to see the sensor ports and power block be one unit. Less clutter, less wires, and less places for something to go wrong. Same as before, but if modularity is so important to some people, could you make the input section changeable? I just did an Hydra upgrade to my old Sol and I like how the unit was designed so the end user could upgrade it. So with that, make the board inside the controller have input ports that you can attach anything to. So if a user wanted PH, Salinity, Temp, and 4 float valve ports, they could just buy those input ports and connect them to the board. Kinda like the wireless module on the Vortech pumps. You want to add ORP? Just add this port to your controller. Now all the haters would say, "Isn't that the same as modules". No, it's still all in one unit, less wires, less cost because you don't have to pay for plastic housing-bus cable-packaging, less connection points to go wrong, and people don't have to pay for what they don't want. I would still include wireless built in and control of your own brand products built in. Same increased outlets but just make the input area changeable. Hmm again just a thought.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 09:08 AM   #66
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Thank you! And I just had another one. I would like to see the sensor ports and power block be one unit. Less clutter, less wires, and less places for something to go wrong. Same as before, but if modularity is so important to some people, could you make the input section changeable? I just did an Hydra upgrade to my old Sol and I like how the unit was designed so the end user could upgrade it. So with that, make the board inside the controller have input ports that you can attach anything to. So if a user wanted PH, Salinity, Temp, and 4 float valve ports, they could just buy those input ports and connect them to the board. Kinda like the wireless module on the Vortech pumps. You want to add ORP? Just add this port to your controller. Now all the haters would say, "Isn't that the same as modules". No, it's still all in one unit, less wires, less cost because you don't have to pay for plastic housing-bus cable-packaging, less connection points to go wrong, and people don't have to pay for what they don't want. I would still include wireless built in and control of your own brand products built in. Same increased outlets but just make the input area changeable. Hmm again just a thought.
Kinda like GHL.
The box is like your pc at home. If you need to add another ph port, open it up and add the ph expansion card. It comes with ports for ph, temp, conductivity, orp, level sensors... but sometimes you need extra.
If something breaks, open it up and replace it after they send you the parts.
This is great because you don't have the down time from having to send your whole unit back to the company to get it fixed.

I'm sure if Ecotech made a controller it would be pretty smart and well done.
Would just need to have something that differentiated itself from the others.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 09:11 AM   #67
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Kinda like GHL.
The box is like your pc at home. If you need to add another ph port, open it up and add the ph expansion card. It comes with ports for ph, temp, conductivity, orp, level sensors... but sometimes you need extra.
If something breaks, open it up and replace it after they send you the parts.
This is great because you don't have the down time from having to send your whole unit back to the company to get it fixed.

I'm sure if Ecotech made a controller it would be pretty smart and well done.
Would just need to have something that differentiated itself from the others.
Nice! Makes sense.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 12:51 PM   #68
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Whatever dude. Says you. I still think it's a good idea and I don't really care if everyone else doesn't. That includes you.
You know, the problem in this thread is how you are reading these posts. You say that you are being attacked with negativity and that people are all saying that your idea is a bad idea. I see very little of that, other than what you get back from comments from you as quoted here. The problem isn't that your idea is a bad one. The problem is that it is completely impractical and totally one-sided. As an example, you said that a modular system creates a mess. Many of us would argue exactly the opposite. Having every cable run to one spot creates more of a mess than having, for instance, all of your probes going to a "probe module" of some sort that you can mount directly above your sump. Then instead of 5 or 6 probe cables running to the head unit that is mounted where you can see it, you just have one bus cable running to it. Much neater. When you consider anyone making that argument being "negative" toward you, well then I guess in your mind we are.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 01:00 PM   #69
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You know, the problem in this thread is how you are reading these posts. You say that you are being attacked with negativity and that people are all saying that your idea is a bad idea. I see very little of that, other than what you get back from comments from you as quoted here.
Agreed! It's all in good fun. Folks with thin skins and quick flash points are always the most fun to debate because it's just a matter of time until they blow a gasket. I've been excoriated a few times here on RC by folks who didn't seem to get that - in most cases they either get moved or just burn out.


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Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

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Unread 05/13/2015, 01:26 PM   #70
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You know, the problem in this thread is how you are reading these posts. You say that you are being attacked with negativity and that people are all saying that your idea is a bad idea. I see very little of that, other than what you get back from comments from you as quoted here. The problem isn't that your idea is a bad one. The problem is that it is completely impractical and totally one-sided. As an example, you said that a modular system creates a mess. Many of us would argue exactly the opposite. Having every cable run to one spot creates more of a mess than having, for instance, all of your probes going to a "probe module" of some sort that you can mount directly above your sump. Then instead of 5 or 6 probe cables running to the head unit that is mounted where you can see it, you just have one bus cable running to it. Much neater. When you consider anyone making that argument being "negative" toward you, well then I guess in your mind we are.
Ya well when people start calling me dumb for trying to come up with a new idea, ya to me that is being attacked. You point of running cables is a valid one and not something I thought of. Simply stating that is the kind of comments I want, but when they are surrounded by comments that I'm dumb or the idea is just bad is wrong. To say the whole idea is bad is silly. There is nothing good about the idea? Nothing? I find that hard to believe. And even if it's bad for you, that doesn't mean it will not fit my needs perfectly. If there was only one good idea for any given product then we would all be driving the same cars, living in the same houses.. etc. And again for the 10th time.. if you are happy with your Apex modular system then great! Why are you here? If no one liked the idea and didn't want to build on it then there should be no other comments. Instead I have 3 pages of people telling me how dumb I am. So glad I started this thread of trying to help other reefers.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 01:29 PM   #71
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Agreed! It's all in good fun. Folks with thin skins and quick flash points are always the most fun to debate because it's just a matter of time until they blow a gasket. I've been excoriated a few times here on RC by folks who didn't seem to get that - in most cases they either get moved or just burn out.
So your goal is to debate with people until they blow a gasket. So instead of truly caring about this topic you are just here to cause trouble? Well then I'll just ignore your posts for here on out. It's all in good fun.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 04:36 PM   #72
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But do I still think it can be better? Yes absolutely. But I guarantee someday someone will come out with a simpler, all built in, affordable, wireless, controller. It's inevitable.


As an avid Apex user I can completely agree with these comments ^^^^



I also agree that not any one type of controller will be a perfect fit for everyone. I see why Apex is at the tip of the spear right now in the controller department because of the vast array of products that are compatible with their system. Everyone's choices for lighting fixtures, powerhead pumps, dosing pumps, etc. are going to be different. There's far too many choices out there!



But, for people who use specifically EcoTech Marine products (like myself), an ETM controller would be VERY enticing!



And who knows, were they to produce one, maybe they would start to build a base of "EcoTech Controller Compatible" equipment produced by other companies??? (Much like the "Apex Ready" products.)


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Unread 05/13/2015, 04:48 PM   #73
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As an avid Apex user I can completely agree with these comments ^^^^

I also agree that not every one type of controller will be a perfect fit for everyone. I see why Apex is at the tip of the spear right now in the controller department because of the vast array of products that are compatible with their system. Everyone's choices for lighting fixtures, powerhead pumps, dosing pumps, etc. are going to be different. There's far too many choices out there!

But, for people who use specifically EcoTech Marine products (like myself), an ETM controller would be VERY enticing!

And who knows, were they to produce one, maybe they would start to build a base of "EcoTech Controller Compatible" equipment produced by other companies??? (Much like the "Apex Ready" products.)
Agree. Apex has done great things for the hobby. You can control things that 10 years ago would have been crazy. They deserve every bit of business as they have. But, I still see a lot of possible improvements and that's the reason I suggested what I did. For us consumers, competition is a good thing. It pushes companies to produce better products and at a cheaper rate.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 04:58 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by bower23 View Post
Ya well when people start calling me dumb for trying to come up with a new idea, ya to me that is being attacked. You point of running cables is a valid one and not something I thought of. Simply stating that is the kind of comments I want, but when they are surrounded by comments that I'm dumb or the idea is just bad is wrong. To say the whole idea is bad is silly. There is nothing good about the idea? Nothing? I find that hard to believe. And even if it's bad for you, that doesn't mean it will not fit my needs perfectly. If there was only one good idea for any given product then we would all be driving the same cars, living in the same houses.. etc. And again for the 10th time.. if you are happy with your Apex modular system then great! Why are you here? If no one liked the idea and didn't want to build on it then there should be no other comments. Instead I have 3 pages of people telling me how dumb I am. So glad I started this thread of trying to help other reefers.
The drama in your posts is overwhelming. What you're failing to see is that you yourself basically called Apex users dumb right from your very first post, saying they're all being "cheated," "ripped off," etc. Implying they're too dumb to see it and Neptune just sees them as cash cows. Even your thread title implies we need to be "saved" from something. Then when people said no, actually they prefer the a la carte option you took it personally and went on to say that they don't understand design or manufacturing (but you do), can't think outside of the box, are unoriginal, etc. I'm happy to go back through the thread and point out the language if you aren't clear on where you rubbed people the wrong way. You get what you give, and you started giving from your very first post and never let up. Please stop playing the victim because people disagreed with you and your tone. It's just a forum.

We all want innovation. Personally I am VERY much looking forward to the Mindstream system which will most likely be supported by Neptune. I'll happily buy the module for it when it comes out, if it happens to need one to integrate with my Apex. I am hoping it does everything they say it will, at which point I will probably also buy a Neptune DOS and start dosing instead of using kalk. I'll also be glad I chose not to buy the salinity module and probe, since they'll no longer be needed. That's the great thing about the modular system. I'm not buying things I don't want/need. The Mindstream will make a couple of things on my system redundant, like pH and temp, but I'll probably still use them because they're at a glance on the Apex head unit.


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Unread 05/13/2015, 05:18 PM   #75
bower23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelli View Post
The drama in your posts is overwhelming. What you're failing to see is that you yourself basically called Apex users dumb right from your very first post, saying they're all being "cheated," "ripped off," etc. Implying they're too dumb to see it and Neptune just sees them as cash cows. Even your thread title implies we need to be "saved" from something. Then when people said no, actually they prefer the a la carte option you took it personally and went on to say that they don't understand design or manufacturing (but you do), can't think outside of the box, are unoriginal, etc. I'm happy to go back through the thread and point out the language if you aren't clear on where you rubbed people the wrong way. You get what you give, and you started giving from your very first post and never let up. Please stop playing the victim because people disagreed with you and your tone. It's just a forum.

We all want innovation. Personally I am VERY much looking forward to the Mindstream system which will most likely be supported by Neptune. I'll happily buy the module for it when it comes out, if it happens to need one to integrate with my Apex. I am hoping it does everything they say it will, at which point I will probably also buy a Neptune DOS and start dosing instead of using kalk. I'll also be glad I chose not to buy the salinity module and probe, since they'll no longer be needed. That's the great thing about the modular system. I'm not buying things I don't want/need. The Mindstream will make a couple of things on my system redundant, like pH and temp, but I'll probably still use them because they're at a glance on the Apex head unit.
So you really think their profit margins are small or are they high because there are so few options on the market that we are willing to pay $530 for a unit that in any other market would probably cost $250? So I still believe we are getting ripped off but I don't think you or anyone else is stupid for it. We have no choice. And no one said. "I like my my Apex and like the modular system". They said it in the same post as saying my idea was bad and I was dumb. I totally understand if it's not for you. And I even said that in my first post. But if you are fine with the current system then why are you here bashing something you don't need or want? That's like me going and telling the motorcycle companies those 3 wheeled motorcycles are stupid because I drive a car.... ???? Either make a helpful contribution to the TOPIC (which is not you or my personal feelings) or please find something else do to.


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