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Unread 09/16/2008, 09:55 AM   #1
basssnake
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Live sand:::bogus or really good stuff?

I am wanting to know if anyone thinks that buying live sand in the bag is a waist of money or not. This is what i was looking at and description:


Ocean Direct Caribbean Live Sand
* Aragonite live sand with millions of nitrate-reducing bacteria
* Ensures faster, safer initial cycling and better bio-filtration once established
* Functional marine substrate increases buffering capacity of your aquarium

Real Caribbean live sand in a patent pending breathable bag. Ocean Direct aragonite live sand ensures faster, safer initial cycling and better bio-filtration throughout the life of your reef system. Delivers millions of living bacteria per pound, reduces nitrate, enhances buffering for the life of your system, and discourages nuisance algae. Also aids coral growth and resists the precipitation of carbonate minerals. 77% of Original Grade Substrate is, by weight, less than 1 mm in size (most of that are smaller than 0.66 mm). NEW Oolite Substrate is almost exclusively sub 1 mm oolite (most of this will be less than 0.60 mm in size).

Used by the foremost public aquariums, research and government institutions, and professionals worldwide. Proven to reduce nitrates.

Buffers for the life of the system
Discourages nuisance algae
Bio-coated surfaces resist the precipitation of carbonate minerals
Aids the growth of living corals
No silica


I have setup a new system. I am going to be putting live rock in and i do have some tanks i can get live sand from to seed my dry sand. I am going to be going with a deep sandbed in my large sump and didn't know if this would benefit anything at all for me, or if i should just buy all dry sand and get about the same amount of sand for less. I was going to buy like 5 bags of dry aragonite sand and 1 bag of this, if it is worth, if not, i will buy 6 bags of the dry stuff. Please reply asap, i am going to need to order this sand right away(before noon, a hour away).....


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Unread 09/16/2008, 10:08 AM   #2
Percula9
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A little bit of live sand is fine to seed the new tank. Has the other tank ever had ich? If so there is a risk of introducing dormant tromonts to the new tank. The dry sand with some live will be fine and less expensive.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 10:18 AM   #3
BigJay
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Buy regular aragonite sand from lowes or the fish store.

Take a cup from your friend's reef and add it to your tank, that will make it "live" enough as the tank establishes itself.

There's no need to pay for lots of dead bacteria when you can get real live stuff for free.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 10:18 AM   #4
basssnake
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So, i wouldn't get any better bacteria with the bag of live sand? I assume i wouldn't get the bacteria that consumes nitrates in a deep sand bed in this live sand? I am guessing not since it would likely have oxygen.......please reply soon


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Unread 09/16/2008, 10:21 AM   #5
basssnake
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You say aragonite sand from lowe's?? Whats it called?? I have been looking for such a thing that is cheaper, but have heard that home depot's and lowe's don't carry the brands anymore(yardright and southdown, which were supposed to be calicum carbonate sand from the carribbean)? Please let me know if you know of something different that they are carrying.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:06 AM   #6
jrenoe1
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I just used dry reef sand that you buy at the LFS, bought 2-3 different sizes for variety. Then I bough a cupp of live sand from 3 different LFS over about a 3 week period. DSB was cranking in no time. I would not pay the extra for the "live" sand in bags.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:29 AM   #7
flyyyguy
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With so many unwanted pests around, I wouldnt recommend using anybodys live sand, ESPECIALLY from any LFS.

Use new dry sand. it will become live soon enough on its own.

As far as the OP's original question..yes it is bogus. What is still alive in a bag that has been sitting on a store shelf?? sure the die off will create a cycle and bacteria, but you dont need a cycle to seed it, it just happens a little quicker that way, but you dont need the sand inthe first place for filtration, just good flow thoruhg yoru rocks. the sand will become live in time from the rocks


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Unread 09/16/2008, 12:44 PM   #8
jrenoe1
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Quote:
Originally posted by flyyyguy
With so many unwanted pests around, I wouldnt recommend using anybodys live sand, ESPECIALLY from any LFS.

Use new dry sand. it will become live soon enough on its own.

As far as the OP's original question..yes it is bogus. What is still alive in a bag that has been sitting on a store shelf?? sure the die off will create a cycle and bacteria, but you dont need a cycle to seed it, it just happens a little quicker that way, but you dont need the sand inthe first place for filtration, just good flow thoruhg yoru rocks. the sand will become live in time from the rocks
So by that logic I should not use LR either from anyone or LFS? So where am I suppose to get stuff?

It is fine to get LS from others and LFS. Just be sure their system is as clean and well maintained as possible. Look for pests and algae and stock health. By getting sand and rock from multiple sources you increase bio-diversity.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 12:47 PM   #9
pledosophy
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Quote:
Originally posted by flyyyguy
With so many unwanted pests around, I wouldnt recommend using anybodys live sand, ESPECIALLY from any LFS.

Use new dry sand. it will become live soon enough on its own.

As far as the OP's original question..yes it is bogus. What is still alive in a bag that has been sitting on a store shelf?? sure the die off will create a cycle and bacteria, but you dont need a cycle to seed it, it just happens a little quicker that way, but you dont need the sand inthe first place for filtration, just good flow thoruhg yoru rocks. the sand will become live in time from the rocks
+1


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Unread 09/16/2008, 12:53 PM   #10
tmantaylor18
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Do you buy your LR from the LFS?

Quote:
Originally posted by flyyyguy
With so many unwanted pests around, I wouldnt recommend using anybodys live sand, ESPECIALLY from any LFS.

Use new dry sand. it will become live soon enough on its own.

As far as the OP's original question..yes it is bogus. What is still alive in a bag that has been sitting on a store shelf?? sure the die off will create a cycle and bacteria, but you dont need a cycle to seed it, it just happens a little quicker that way, but you dont need the sand inthe first place for filtration, just good flow thoruhg yoru rocks. the sand will become live in time from the rocks



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Unread 09/16/2008, 01:02 PM   #11
flyyyguy
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmantaylor18
Do you buy your LR from the LFS?
no.

the last 3 tanks I have set up have all started with base and a couple pieces from one of my existing systems


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Unread 09/16/2008, 01:19 PM   #12
pledosophy
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I cook any rock from an LFS for many months before use. Any unwanted pests would be dead.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 01:43 PM   #13
jrenoe1
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Quote:
Originally posted by pledosophy
I cook any rock from an LFS for many months before use. Any unwanted pests would be dead.
How do you "cook" this LR?


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Unread 09/16/2008, 01:53 PM   #14
chimmike
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but why bother getting LR if you're going to "cook" it for many months? Doesn't that essentially kill even the good hitchhikers like fans, etc?


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Unread 09/16/2008, 02:02 PM   #15
flyyyguy
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Quote:
Originally posted by chimmike
but why bother getting LR if you're going to "cook" it for many months? Doesn't that essentially kill even the good hitchhikers like fans, etc?
nope

most everything lives through it fine that isnt photosynthetic


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Unread 09/16/2008, 02:29 PM   #16
imo
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Hi guys i have got in my system caribsea live eragonite and it realy works as they say,i would start my system with live sand


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Unread 09/16/2008, 03:47 PM   #17
ccorpse27
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Quote:
Originally posted by imo
Hi guys i have got in my system caribsea live eragonite and it realy works as they say,i would start my system with live sand
LOL sure it does. Do you work for Caribsea?


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Unread 09/16/2008, 03:55 PM   #18
jrenoe1
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Quote:
Originally posted by flyyyguy
nope

most everything lives through it fine that isnt photosynthetic
So are most "pests" photosynthetic? Not sure I am following this logic. I think most folks only "cure" LR to allow die-off from shipping to occur and cycle off. Once it smells good, its ready for the tank. I am not sure what the "cooking" is all about.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 05:06 PM   #19
flyyyguy
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Quote:
Originally posted by jrenoe1
So are most "pests" photosynthetic? Not sure I am following this logic. I think most folks only "cure" LR to allow die-off from shipping to occur and cycle off. Once it smells good, its ready for the tank. I am not sure what the "cooking" is all about.
The point of cooking has nothing to do with pests , in fact i wouldnt count on cooking to get rid of them all as cooking wont kill eunicids nor polyclads unless you did it for 6-12 months...and you would be surprised at what photosythetic creatures still can survive it. GSP is one locvely coral that can withstand months of cookign and the crap will still show up again

Anyway, cooking, in SHORT is shutting out all light and doing lots of water changes to already well seeded rock. the point is to allow the bacteria to consume the phosphates from within the rock so that the phosphate becomes part of the biomass fo the bacteria. The rock will shed. The shedding that is created is this bacterial biomass being squeezed out of the rock.

Is cooking your rock necessary to have a healthy reef?? Absolutely not. Does it give your system a huge advantage over not having cooked it?? absolutely. I have cooked lots of batches and I even have another couple hundred pound batch I just started to seed going right now in plans for my next big tank that is coming soon. I would never start up a reef tank without cooking the rock first.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 09:24 PM   #20
jrenoe1
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Sounds like you believe in it, and I respect that. I still don't get it and don't see the value. You are saying the it is just about phosphate? That is what you are trying to get out of the rock? Or do you mean organic material in general the rock sheds? I fail to see how putting rock that is from an area that is bathed in sun into a dark place for months to kill off some sub-set of life-mass is somehow beneficial.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 09:32 PM   #21
jrenoe1
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Here is a thread on the site about this. Seems many think it makes sense.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=437342

Still don't think I would do it!


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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:13 PM   #22
Tang Salad
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The only advantage I've found with that product is that it requires much less rinsing. This is actually a pretty nice benefit, and for me, was worth the little extra it cost.

Quote:
Originally posted by flyyyguy
With so many unwanted pests around, I wouldnt recommend using anybodys live sand, ESPECIALLY from any LFS.
This is not personal flyyyguy, but I strongly disagree with this. From a general point of view, it seems to me that tank-ending plagues, parasites, whatevers, are FAR less common than reading these forums would lead one to believe. More specifically, what horrible things lurk in live sand? One would hopefully be careful/smart enough to not scoop up Aiptasia, Valonia or Flatworms with the sand, or better yet avoid these tanks altogether. There are plenty of healthy tanks out there (even many at LFSs) from which to choose.

In fact in many clubs (and even here at RC in years past) people arrange live sand swaps. I'm not sure the boost in diversity is as great as some expect, but the downsides to it are pretty limited. All in all using a little LS from a mature tank has benefits that outweigh the risks....IMHO.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:22 PM   #23
flyyyguy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tang Salad


This is not personal flyyyguy, .

I hate all sand in the first place, so nothing personal taken.



FWIW, I do agree with you that the risk of pests is not all that big of a deal with getting a cup or two of sand from wherever, but it is there just the same

I am extremely OCD about how I run my reefs anymore I have had pretty much all the pests at one time or another and it simply isnt worth it to me to risk my corals in any way

I do strongly feel that live sand is a crock and a waste of money. When you get the opportunity to start fresh with clean new sand you should take it. The last few tanks I set up when I did use sand i set up that way and they worked great. No complaints, besides otheer reasons why i wont ever use sand again, and beating the BB vs sand horse doesnt belong in this thread so I wont even go there




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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:32 PM   #24
stanlalee
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pre packaged live sand is one of the most bogus mark ups I can think of. Mainly because its not live sand. You just as well go dry then to pay for bacteria which is all your doing. REAL live sand is not bogus, prepackaged and has LIVE micro organisms beside bacteria.


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Unread 09/16/2008, 11:32 PM   #25
Tang Salad
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Cool. Glad we got that cleared up.

Edit: This was to flyyyguy...


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