DSB in a bucket for nitrate control - Page 13

Spuds725 · 12/25/2005, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boris MAC

Aragonit sand is hard to get online from were I'm located .

I didn't notice your location-- good luck whichever route you go--

I'm setting one up the next week or so... nitrates are creeping up in my new tank.... I will likely be using some fine "silica" based sand based on its price and availablilty where I am.... no southdown, yardright, or "good" old castle near me.... I checked.

I'm setting up a loop off my sump with a MJ1200.

boris MAC · 12/25/2005, 04:21 PM

And you going to set up the inlet and oulet at the top of the bucket?

00nothing · 12/25/2005, 08:35 PM

how large of a rdsb would be reccomended for a 135 gallon fowlr with predators

it is my hope that the sump will somehow hold two buckets but i dont think it is going to be feasible

Spuds725 · 12/25/2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boris MAC
And you going to set up the inlet and oulet at the top of the bucket?

Pretty close-- going to drill a few inches down and use some elbows to get the inlet and outlet near the top (below the support ribs near the top of the bucket).... just got to get to the store and pick up some bulkheads.

pindrosm · 12/26/2005, 01:00 PM

prezioso73

What home depot did you get your Southdown sand from? I called around to a few iHD's in the youngstown area and have had no luck finding it. Thanks, Shawn

Bill Shultz · 12/26/2005, 05:03 PM

Hey Anthony,

How about adding the following acronym to the list on the RC home page:

FOWGHA

That would pretty much describe my tank before I found this thread.

Spuds725 · 12/26/2005, 05:47 PM

LOL @ FOWGHA

Quote:

Originally posted by pindrosm
prezioso73

What home depot did you get your Southdown sand from? I called around to a few iHD's in the youngstown area and have had no luck finding it. Thanks, Shawn

Since you are relatively close to cleveland.... when I was looking back in June, I was told the "old castle" white play sand at Petitti Garden Centers near cleveland was aragonite... I drove there from TOledo a day after someone bought some and they only had one pallet of it left and it wasn't aragonite.... more likely to find it at a garden center then a big chain IMO.

I also exchanged PMS with someone on here that found it (southdown) at Canton Rd Garden center in Akron... but it was a while ago...maybe give them a call.

HTH.

akhanf · 12/27/2005, 04:52 AM

About to get my 5 gal RDSB started; picked up 60 lbs aragamax oolitic on boxing day. One question; what kind of bulkheads or fittings are you guys using on your buckets (I'll be using flex vinyl tubing to hook it up)? Do they sell those rubber gasket-type things at home depot? I'm using a 5gal IO salt bucket btw..

Thanks!
I'll let you guys know how the RDSB works out for me in a bit!

ReefLurker · 12/27/2005, 05:35 AM

Our local farm supply store carries bulkheads.

Spuds725 · 12/27/2005, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akhanf
About to get my 5 gal RDSB started; picked up 60 lbs aragamax oolitic on boxing day. One question; what kind of bulkheads or fittings are you guys using on your buckets (I'll be using flex vinyl tubing to hook it up)? Do they sell those rubber gasket-type things at home depot? I'm using a 5gal IO salt bucket btw..

Thanks!
I'll let you guys know how the RDSB works out for me in a bit!

Those are called "uniseals"-- I'm not sure if home depot or lowes does and if they do, if they carry small sizes-- I bought an up-flushing toilet at lowes for my basement and the tank has these so they might--- I think the size for my toilet was 1 1/4" though for a sink connection, then a 2" for the piping outlet and 3" or 4" for the vent line... not sure if they would have smaller sizes...

you can get them online but this site has a $10 minimum order-- http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../8600/cid/2009 so you have to buy 4 of them or 2 and something else...

Marcelog · 12/27/2005, 07:33 AM

Since there isn't a ton of flow or pressure, you could just use threaded PCV with some rubber washers. The buckets are pliable enough that they "straighten" when you tighten the PCV down.

Marcelo -

kysmith · 12/27/2005, 08:27 AM

I have a 29G tank and had a 10g tank all plumbed for turning into a fuge. When I saw this thread I decided to give a RDSB a try first since I hadn't added the macro and water yet. I just installed a 4-5" DSB in the 10g tank and have about 2-3" of water running over it. I'll keep everyone updated about the progress of the tank.

Kyle

guntercb · 12/27/2005, 09:47 AM

Bill,

Thanks for your input. Why do you think the buckets would never crash? I would think the bacteria would eventually die. Maybe I need to take a biology class. I think I understand the bacteria growing in the RDSB eating Nitrates. What happens when the bacteria die? I understand the food and detritris will not build up if you pre-filter, but if the bacteria die do they just keep consuming themselfs? And if that is the case what happens when the bacteria die at the same rate they consume themselfs? Then the bacteria cannot handle the nitrates?

What am I missing?

Thanks,
Chris

Bill Shultz · 12/27/2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akhanf
About to get my 5 gal RDSB started; picked up 60 lbs aragamax oolitic on boxing day. One question; what kind of bulkheads or fittings are you guys using on your buckets (I'll be using flex vinyl tubing to hook it up)? Do they sell those rubber gasket-type things at home depot? I'm using a 5gal IO salt bucket btw..

Thanks!
I'll let you guys know how the RDSB works out for me in a bit!

I use the bulkheads you can buy at most any good (well stocked) ACE hardware.

3/4" Bulkheads from ACE

I haven't been able to find these at Home Depots around by me for one reason or another.

I also agree with Marcelog in that the buckets are flexible enough that you don't need to worry about finding some special curved bulkheads. If you use the standard bulkheads from the link I provided you won't go wrong provided they are tightened down sufficiently.

captbunzo · 12/27/2005, 11:48 AM

My two cents, I REALLY like these bulkheads:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../6835/cid/1885

They are much thicker, solid, and easier to grip then standard bulkheads. I will, if possible, never use the standard kind again.

Bill Shultz · 12/27/2005, 11:52 AM

guntercb,

I happen to have a B.S. in Biology (and have learned way more about fishkeeping from RC than from my years in college). I would not recommend you take a class to understand this concept.

Let me see if I can do your question justice. . .

Basically in any closed environment (such as your fishtank) you will reach a balance or equilibrium point eventually. This is particularly true of the balance between the bacteria in the tank, and the wastes that they consume for food. Take the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle that occurs in our tanks when we first start them up (and continues indefinately of course). After a few weeks the amount of bacteria increase to feed off of the waste in the water. When they've reached a number sufficient to begin to remove the ammonia we as fishkeepers can see these levels begin to drop from our water measurements.

In a tank that is well established, when we add additional fish to our "stabilized" environment two things occur: the fish will be producing more waste (more "food" will be in the tank for the bacteria) and the second is that there would be a quantitive rise in the number of bacteria because there is now more food available for them. Oppositely, if we lower our tank's fish bioload -- or maybe feed more cautiously -- then there would be less waste introduced in the tank and the bacteria levels will subsequently drop due to the restricted resources (i.e. their food)for them all to share.

In this thread we are working on populating our RDSB's with nitrate consuming bacteria. With the deep sand in the buckets we provide the denitrifing bacteria an environment where they can survive. Their "food" is in the form of the nitrates that are dissolved in the tank water. At some point the bacteria will reach a balance between the amount of food they have avaiable and the numbers of bacteria that can be supported by this limited amount of food. In an tank with an established RDSB setup, we would hope to see the nitrate levels measure at near zero. This reading just means that the nitrate produced by the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle is being produced at the exact rate at which the nitrate consuming bacteria can remove it from the system. A beautiful equilibrium.

Changes to the system will alter the balance, but the system will again return to a new equilibrium point at some later time. If for example you increase your nutrient export in the form of more efficient skimming you would essentially be lowering the amount of nitrates circulating in the tank. The bacteria would respond to this by lowering their total numbers. This happens because there simply is not enough food avialable to support their previously larger population. Bacteria are born, live, and dye in a cycle just like us (albeit much shorter) and they will reach these equilibrium points very rapidly. Because they are in a closed environment, they must conform to the resource restrictions that they are given. Some of these resources include their food (nitrates for our example of nitrate consuming bacteria) and room to live (in our bucket DSBs).

Make sense?

Bill Shultz · 12/27/2005, 11:59 AM

captbunzo's bulkheads look great also. Really no difference between mine and his. I just like running to the local hardware store and getting them right away so that I can implement my new plans on the same day as opposed to ordering them online and waiting a few days.

guntercb,
Also regarding your concerns of RDSB's crashing. . . look over the first few pages of this thread. RDSB's don't have the same problems as traditional or in-tank DSB's because of using prefiltered water, high flow, etc. They are not as prone to becoming nutrient sinks and leading to this problem of a potential "crash." (which is even debated among the DSB people).

prezioso73 · 12/27/2005, 03:03 PM

All the Southdown sand that I have is frome HD in Toledo. My brother in law lives there and got it for me quite a while ago...I think we are all going to have a hard time getting sand from any hardware store until "sandbox" season comes along.

Spuds725 · 12/28/2005, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prezioso73
All the Southdown sand that I have is frome HD in Toledo. My brother in law lives there and got it for me quite a while ago...I think we are all going to have a hard time getting sand from any hardware store until "sandbox" season comes along.

Definitely not sold in Toledo anymore (at least last spring/summer when I was searching)... I checked everywhere in Toledo.... HD, LOwes, Meijer, Walmart, K-mart, etc.... if you bought a bag of sand in toledo with a hole in it, chances are I poked it (for my vinegar tests)....

guntercb · 12/28/2005, 03:24 PM

Bill,

Thanks for the response. It makes sense!!! Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris

Spuds725 · 12/28/2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prezioso73
All the Southdown sand that I have is frome HD in Toledo. My brother in law lives there and got it for me quite a while ago...I think we are all going to have a hard time getting sand from any hardware store until "sandbox" season comes along.

I just bought some quickrete premium playsand at lowes for my bucket DSB-- 50 pounds for $2.95.... this is silica sand-- I found a thread on a hermit crab message board about it

http://www.crabstreetjournal.com/mod...320&highlight=

and someone there contacted the packaging plant.. its about 95% silica sand and very clean (not dusty)....

Here is an MSDS (material safety data sheet) sheet for it....

http://www.quikrete.com/downloads/MS...d%20gravel.pdf

in case anyone else decides to use this--

I plan on using this with an inch or two layer of courser caribsea aragonite reef sand on top-- shouldn't blow around as much as the sand I bought-- will hopefully be installed tomorrow sometime...

SRVDVM · 12/29/2005, 10:27 AM

Ok,
New Years weekend is here and I would like to get my DSB started. I have a 90 ga reef with 30 ga sump (w/about 20 gallons of water) I have a 5 gallon reef salt bucket

Couple of questions:
1) How are you drilling the holes in the bucket - hole saw?
2) What size pipe are you using. I was thinking of a maxijet pump and I believe their out let is 1/4 inch external diameter (I saw someone is planning on a maxi jet 1200 will a smaller MJ work?)
3) placement of the holes in the bucket - I was planning on the inlet on the side and closer to the top of the bucket and the outlet lower - just above the sand bed
4) I was thinking of using the diverter (is that the correct term?) that comes with the MJ pumps on the inside of the inflow hole to direct the water upwards to decrease possible sand stirring

Thanks all

Scott

steve9k · 12/29/2005, 03:01 PM

After following this thread for a while I decided to try it myself. But in setting up my remote DSB and ran into a bit of a puzzle. I'm using a 5g bucket with 2 holes drilled in the side, 1 input and 1 output, the output about an inch lower than the input. Using a powerhead rated at ~280g/h to pump the water in. Here's the puzzle: the water level can't seem to stay above the output hole, so the water starts sucking air as it drains and makes awful gurgling noises. But if I reduce the output flow a bit (e.g. with a ball valve) there's always the danger of overflowing the bucket. Any way out of this quandary? Thoughts, anyone?

grochmal · 12/29/2005, 03:10 PM

I tried to set up a remote refugium a while ago in a similar fashion.
I had a plastic bin that I put a bulkhead in for the output and fed water to the bin from a pump in my sump.
The problem I had was unless I had a very slow amount of water feeding into the fuge, the water level would rise up too high - like the bulkhead couldn't keep up.
And it was a 1" bulkhead.
I could never figure out why.
I also had a gurgling noise like you do, and I put a length of airline tubing down into the output pipe, with the other end exposed to the air.
This seemed to solve the gurgling.

akhanf · 12/29/2005, 03:16 PM

Yeah I'm still wondering about the mechanics of where to put the holes, what piping etc; I'm not totally comfortable with aquarium plumbing.. Is there someone who has built a 5gal bucket rdsb willing to write up a little diy help? Thanks!

12/26/2005, 05:03 PM	#306
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Hey Anthony, How about adding the following acronym to the list on the RC home page: FOWGHA That would pretty much describe my tank before I found this thread. __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

12/27/2005, 04:52 AM	#308
akhanf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 69	About to get my 5 gal RDSB started; picked up 60 lbs aragamax oolitic on boxing day. One question; what kind of bulkheads or fittings are you guys using on your buckets (I'll be using flex vinyl tubing to hook it up)? Do they sell those rubber gasket-type things at home depot? I'm using a 5gal IO salt bucket btw.. Thanks! I'll let you guys know how the RDSB works out for me in a bit! __________________ 120 mixed reef, euroreef cs6-1, mag 9 return on scwd, 2x tunze nanostreams 6045, 2x250W reeflux 12K on coralvue ballasts, single stage pro-line calcium reactor Current Tank Info: 120gallon reef (lps/softies/sps)

12/27/2005, 08:27 AM	#312
kysmith Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 600	I have a 29G tank and had a 10g tank all plumbed for turning into a fuge. When I saw this thread I decided to give a RDSB a try first since I hadn't added the macro and water yet. I just installed a 4-5" DSB in the 10g tank and have about 2-3" of water running over it. I'll keep everyone updated about the progress of the tank. Kyle __________________ GO HOKIES!! Current Tank Info: 29 gallon

12/27/2005, 11:48 AM	#315
captbunzo Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Ascot, Berkshire, England Posts: 3,950	My two cents, I REALLY like these bulkheads: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../6835/cid/1885 They are much thicker, solid, and easier to grip then standard bulkheads. I will, if possible, never use the standard kind again. __________________ Paul Thompson South Ascot, Berkshire, England RK: Where only bad things happen fast... CRAZY 4 the CRASE - Sometime 2008 Current Tank Info: 180 litre UK Reef

12/27/2005, 11:52 AM	#316
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	guntercb, I happen to have a B.S. in Biology (and have learned way more about fishkeeping from RC than from my years in college). I would not recommend you take a class to understand this concept. Let me see if I can do your question justice. . . Basically in any closed environment (such as your fishtank) you will reach a balance or equilibrium point eventually. This is particularly true of the balance between the bacteria in the tank, and the wastes that they consume for food. Take the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle that occurs in our tanks when we first start them up (and continues indefinately of course). After a few weeks the amount of bacteria increase to feed off of the waste in the water. When they've reached a number sufficient to begin to remove the ammonia we as fishkeepers can see these levels begin to drop from our water measurements. In a tank that is well established, when we add additional fish to our "stabilized" environment two things occur: the fish will be producing more waste (more "food" will be in the tank for the bacteria) and the second is that there would be a quantitive rise in the number of bacteria because there is now more food available for them. Oppositely, if we lower our tank's fish bioload -- or maybe feed more cautiously -- then there would be less waste introduced in the tank and the bacteria levels will subsequently drop due to the restricted resources (i.e. their food)for them all to share. In this thread we are working on populating our RDSB's with nitrate consuming bacteria. With the deep sand in the buckets we provide the denitrifing bacteria an environment where they can survive. Their "food" is in the form of the nitrates that are dissolved in the tank water. At some point the bacteria will reach a balance between the amount of food they have avaiable and the numbers of bacteria that can be supported by this limited amount of food. In an tank with an established RDSB setup, we would hope to see the nitrate levels measure at near zero. This reading just means that the nitrate produced by the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle is being produced at the exact rate at which the nitrate consuming bacteria can remove it from the system. A beautiful equilibrium. Changes to the system will alter the balance, but the system will again return to a new equilibrium point at some later time. If for example you increase your nutrient export in the form of more efficient skimming you would essentially be lowering the amount of nitrates circulating in the tank. The bacteria would respond to this by lowering their total numbers. This happens because there simply is not enough food avialable to support their previously larger population. Bacteria are born, live, and dye in a cycle just like us (albeit much shorter) and they will reach these equilibrium points very rapidly. Because they are in a closed environment, they must conform to the resource restrictions that they are given. Some of these resources include their food (nitrates for our example of nitrate consuming bacteria) and room to live (in our bucket DSBs). Make sense? __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

12/25/2005, 04:21 PM	#302
boris MAC Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Macedonia Posts: 214	And you going to set up the inlet and oulet at the top of the bucket?

12/25/2005, 08:35 PM	#303
00nothing Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: angus, Ontario, Canada Posts: 740	how large of a rdsb would be reccomended for a 135 gallon fowlr with predators it is my hope that the sump will somehow hold two buckets but i dont think it is going to be feasible

12/26/2005, 01:00 PM	#305
pindrosm Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1	prezioso73 What home depot did you get your Southdown sand from? I called around to a few iHD's in the youngstown area and have had no luck finding it. Thanks, Shawn

12/27/2005, 05:35 AM	#309
ReefLurker Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Elmira Posts: 151	Our local farm supply store carries bulkheads.

12/27/2005, 07:33 AM	#311
Marcelog Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 587	Since there isn't a ton of flow or pressure, you could just use threaded PCV with some rubber washers. The buckets are pliable enough that they "straighten" when you tighten the PCV down. Marcelo -

12/27/2005, 09:47 AM	#313
guntercb Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,626	Bill, Thanks for your input. Why do you think the buckets would never crash? I would think the bacteria would eventually die. Maybe I need to take a biology class. I think I understand the bacteria growing in the RDSB eating Nitrates. What happens when the bacteria die? I understand the food and detritris will not build up if you pre-filter, but if the bacteria die do they just keep consuming themselfs? And if that is the case what happens when the bacteria die at the same rate they consume themselfs? Then the bacteria cannot handle the nitrates? What am I missing? Thanks, Chris

12/27/2005, 11:59 AM	#317
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	captbunzo's bulkheads look great also. Really no difference between mine and his. I just like running to the local hardware store and getting them right away so that I can implement my new plans on the same day as opposed to ordering them online and waiting a few days. guntercb, Also regarding your concerns of RDSB's crashing. . . look over the first few pages of this thread. RDSB's don't have the same problems as traditional or in-tank DSB's because of using prefiltered water, high flow, etc. They are not as prone to becoming nutrient sinks and leading to this problem of a potential "crash." (which is even debated among the DSB people). __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

12/27/2005, 03:03 PM	#318
prezioso73 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hubbard, Ohio Posts: 435	All the Southdown sand that I have is frome HD in Toledo. My brother in law lives there and got it for me quite a while ago...I think we are all going to have a hard time getting sand from any hardware store until "sandbox" season comes along. __________________ Poseidon pump...quiet. Current Tank Info: 55 gallon tank, 55 Gal sump, 25 gal. fuge, ASM G2 Skimmer, 100lbs LR, MH lighting, "No noise" Poseidon pump, soft/hard corals; 12 Gal Nanno

12/28/2005, 03:24 PM	#320
guntercb Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,626	Bill, Thanks for the response. It makes sense!!! Thanks. Cheers, Chris

12/29/2005, 10:27 AM	#322
SRVDVM Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 71	Ok, New Years weekend is here and I would like to get my DSB started. I have a 90 ga reef with 30 ga sump (w/about 20 gallons of water) I have a 5 gallon reef salt bucket Couple of questions: 1) How are you drilling the holes in the bucket - hole saw? 2) What size pipe are you using. I was thinking of a maxijet pump and I believe their out let is 1/4 inch external diameter (I saw someone is planning on a maxi jet 1200 will a smaller MJ work?) 3) placement of the holes in the bucket - I was planning on the inlet on the side and closer to the top of the bucket and the outlet lower - just above the sand bed 4) I was thinking of using the diverter (is that the correct term?) that comes with the MJ pumps on the inside of the inflow hole to direct the water upwards to decrease possible sand stirring Thanks all Scott __________________ Some of its magic, some of its tragic but I had a good life all the way Current Tank Info: 90 g reef (that is what it is supposed to be)

12/29/2005, 03:01 PM	#323
steve9k Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dresher, PA Posts: 54	After following this thread for a while I decided to try it myself. But in setting up my remote DSB and ran into a bit of a puzzle. I'm using a 5g bucket with 2 holes drilled in the side, 1 input and 1 output, the output about an inch lower than the input. Using a powerhead rated at ~280g/h to pump the water in. Here's the puzzle: the water level can't seem to stay above the output hole, so the water starts sucking air as it drains and makes awful gurgling noises. But if I reduce the output flow a bit (e.g. with a ball valve) there's always the danger of overflowing the bucket. Any way out of this quandary? Thoughts, anyone?

12/29/2005, 03:10 PM	#324
grochmal Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 647	I tried to set up a remote refugium a while ago in a similar fashion. I had a plastic bin that I put a bulkhead in for the output and fed water to the bin from a pump in my sump. The problem I had was unless I had a very slow amount of water feeding into the fuge, the water level would rise up too high - like the bulkhead couldn't keep up. And it was a 1" bulkhead. I could never figure out why. I also had a gurgling noise like you do, and I put a length of airline tubing down into the output pipe, with the other end exposed to the air. This seemed to solve the gurgling. __________________ Jeff Current Tank Info: 125 gallon bare-bottom reef, 6' Maristar light, Tunze streams, 55 gallon sump, ASM G3 skimmer, RDSB

12/29/2005, 03:16 PM	#325
akhanf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 69	Yeah I'm still wondering about the mechanics of where to put the holes, what piping etc; I'm not totally comfortable with aquarium plumbing.. Is there someone who has built a 5gal bucket rdsb willing to write up a little diy help? Thanks! __________________ 120 mixed reef, euroreef cs6-1, mag 9 return on scwd, 2x tunze nanostreams 6045, 2x250W reeflux 12K on coralvue ballasts, single stage pro-line calcium reactor Current Tank Info: 120gallon reef (lps/softies/sps)