DSB in a bucket for nitrate control - Page 7

Anthony Calfo · 10/27/2005, 09:48 PM

no sand stirrers needed on the unlit remote DSB is there is enough water flow to keep solids in suspension over it

RichConley · 10/28/2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RayinAZ
ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.

If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.

You probably wont get much result from that, but you could use a bucket that seals (Like an IO salt bucket with screw on top) and just run a maxijet or something in the tank pumping water down a hose into bucket in sump. Have a line in the bucket going back to the tank...essentially making the bucket part of a closed loop.

Issue with this is the bucket NEEDS to be sealed, because if it leaks, its going to drain your tank.

Essentially turn a 5g bucket into a DIY cannister.

Savatage · 10/29/2005, 09:01 AM

I'm back ANTHONY or anyone. Here is a little different idea for the DSB bucket. What if I was to take my 75gal sump, section the middle 2 feet with glass. Holes drilled at the top. Here's the idea.

Water comes in at one end of sump. goes through the holes at the top of the first sleve, running over two feet of sand, then exiting the other side at the top. Pouring through the holes and filling the other end of the sump where my skimmer and return pump sit. The sand bed in the middle will be 2' x 18" x 18" deep and done with black PVC so no light gets to the sand. What do you think?????

I think it would work because of the size of the sump, it's all contained into one unit (drain, return, skimmer, cheato) and doesn't create an eyesore. I could sketch up a drawing of what it would look like, but I have no idea on how to do that on here.

Savatage · 10/29/2005, 09:05 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RayinAZ
ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options.

If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Ray
PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might as well go to your local swimming pool store and buy you a medium sized sand filter. They are completely sealed, hold a lot of sand, no light, NO WORRIES!

Thales · 10/29/2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Savatage
I'm back ANTHONY or anyone. Here is a little different idea for the DSB bucket. What if I was to take my 75gal sump, section the middle 2 feet with glass. Holes drilled at the top. Here's the idea.

Water comes in at one end of sump. goes through the holes at the top of the first sleve, running over two feet of sand, then exiting the other side at the top. Pouring through the holes and filling the other end of the sump where my skimmer and return pump sit. The sand bed in the middle will be 2' x 18" x 18" deep and done with black PVC so no light gets to the sand. What do you think?????

I think it would work because of the size of the sump, it's all contained into one unit (drain, return, skimmer, cheato) and doesn't create an eyesore. I could sketch up a drawing of what it would look like, but I have no idea on how to do that on here.

I do something similar, but I run my sand at the end of the filtration chain, not the beginning. The way you are suggesting might allow detritus to settle onto/into the sand - skimming/'fuging the water before the sand should cut down on the amount of detritus that could get into the bed.

captbunzo · 10/29/2005, 11:35 AM

Excellent plan - after all, we are only attempting to remove Nitrates from the water, and that is still going to be at full strength no matter where in the chain we put it.

Not like a skimmer, which needs to be immediately after the tank overflow...

Savatage · 10/29/2005, 08:00 PM

I think I will have to work on my plans a little more and see what I come with for the extremely deep sand. I still have to work on getting some sand though. I have no idea what the silica would turn out to be like. Anthony said that it would probably work just fine, but he had some concerns of the jagged edges of the silica. I need to find some type of aragonite sand. NOT old castle either. I don't want to turn it into a calcium rock in time.

Anthony Calfo · 10/29/2005, 08:06 PM

aragonite only fuses when you allow your pH to drop low and usually rapidly as with misdosing calcium supplements (too much kalk too fast, for example) or having unstable pH (dropping very low at night).

It's easy with good water quality/stability to avoid having aragonite fuse.

I'm so very strict about maintaining a strong and stable pH (8.3-8.6... never lower than 8.3 at night)... I have yet to have aragonite fuse. I recommend high and stable pH for more than a few good reasons aside form this issue.

FWIW

Bill Shultz · 11/05/2005, 02:22 PM

Anthony,

First off, thanks for such a valuable post for all of us who have been fighting Nitrates for years.

I've recently set up a DSB in a 5 gallon bucket plummed into my sump. I was wondering: what is your opinion about the depth and consistency of the media which is in the DSB?

In my bucket, I've placed about 5" of sand (sugar grain size), then I have 2" of Carib Sea Aragonite reef sand above that, and then my final 1/5" is a combination of Kent Marine's Nitrate Sponge and Seachem's DeNitrate (about 4 lbs between the two).

I used this stratification in order to have the heavier rocks on top so to "protect" the sand underneath from being blown around. On top of my 8.5" of media, I have about 3.75" of water circulating at about 260 GPH.

To get back to my question. . .
Do you think I will need a deeper amount of the fine sand? I have noticed that most people do not seem to use a mix of media when they are creating these DSB buckets.

Thanks.
--Bill

Bill Shultz · 11/05/2005, 02:54 PM

I thought I'd include the recent pics to show everyone my setup which I described in the above post. You will notice that I used my Fluval MSF 304 Canister Filter to power the DSB bucket. The Fluval draws water from the sump return area after it has been mechanically filtered and skimmed. The Fluval pumpt into the 5 gallon bucket above and then a 3/4" bulkhead gravity drains the water back into my sump.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...16RC-DSB-3.jpg

Bill Shultz · 11/05/2005, 02:57 PM

This last pic didn't show up above so I'll just repost it here. Sorry if anyone's bothered by scrolling past the big images, but I'm a fan of making the pics as clear as possible for your viewing pleasure. I'll keep you guys posted with my progress. On Day 1 my nitrates are 50 ppm. I'm hoping to check weekly.

--Bill

Bill Shultz · 11/05/2005, 06:14 PM

Part of my recent interest in aggressive nitrate control is that I have a beautiful pinktail trigger that has decided for the past month and a half that he is no longer interested in eating. His behavior has switched from swimming around the tank and only wedging himself into rocks periodically to the present behavior which includes laying in the corners of the tank and becoming so sickly that I can catch him with little effort.

My tank has been pretty stable and the only variable that has been problematic is the nitrates. Ammonia, Nitrite are undetectable. I don't check, but I've got a good phosphate remover that I use. Temp and salinity are rock solid at 79 and 1.025 respectively. I have a porcupine puffer also in my 55 gallong tank who continues to thrive during my trigger's illness.

Has anyone heard of this type of fish behavior from high nitrates?

RayinAZ · 11/06/2005, 01:18 AM

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

RayinAZ · 11/06/2005, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!)

I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

Anthony Calfo · 11/06/2005, 12:49 PM

cheers, Bill

Thank you for your kind words my friend

Your installation overall looks fine. Nice idea to have some coarse media atop to prevent fine sand from blowing around too easily. The mechanical prefiltration of the feed water spares the worry or concern over that such media trapping solids excessively. The flow from the Fluval is likely nicely moderate too.

True... I would like to see more than 5" of fine sand for the DSB here... but it will be helpful as it is regardless. It may well be enough after all.

As for the fishes not eating from high nitrates... it is documented over and over again, yes

One of the more extreme expressions of it is Thyroid Hyperplasia (do some keyword searches for this). It can be caused by iodine deficiencies in the diet and/or high nitrtates (which inhibit the uptake of otherwise available iodine). A goiter is formed in the throat region which is generally not obvious until it is too late.

still... it is reversible slowly over time (months). Force feeding willl be necessary after 3-4 weeks without feeding (PM me if needed). Reduce nitrates to near zero and provide an iodine rich diet (fresh/thawed shellfish ala shrimp, crabs, etc) and Lugols iodine supplemented to the water in small daily doses faithfully (follow the reef supplement mfg dose recommendations here to start with safely).

best of luck,

Anthony

Bill Shultz · 11/06/2005, 04:49 PM

Anthony,

Thanks for the rapid response. I did try to forcefeed my pinktail with some sucess already.

My earlier post had a few typos in it . . . I have 8.5" of total media in my bucket:
5" of sand
2" of the 1-2mm size Aragonite
and then about 1.5" of the larger rocks on the very top.

Even though I have only 5" of sand in the bottom, do you think the 2" of Aragonite on top of this will help contribute to the total depth of the bed and (hopefully) provide for the anaerobic environment I'm hoping to achieve? Time will tell the story, but don't some people create DSB's by using Aragonite alone?

And finally, as I know that other people will surely read this forum looking for answers (as I have), I would like to hear and any techniques you have for force feeding ailing fish.

Thanks again for your time.

--Bill

Anthony Calfo · 11/06/2005, 06:40 PM

Pufferqueen (LMAS' Ms Kelly Jedlicki) has shown me techniques for using soft airline tubing and a syringe (no needle... the tubing hooks up to the nozzle) for injecting a high protein mash (slurry with cyclop-eeze, Selcon, etc... whatever is needed for the species/specimen). It takes some basic thought and consideration for the anatomy of the creature. Yet with slow insertion of the soft feeding tube.. you can proceed slowly until you reach the gut and feel a slight resistence. (a transverse piece of rigid airline tubing can be used as a bite stick to prevent small toothy fishes from closing down on the soft tubing).

It's quite easy after you have been shown in person.l It at all possible, do see if a local very works with aquatics. The office visit fee will be well worth the lesson.

Professionals (and folks with access to hospital supplies

) often use a tiny catheter made for infants to force feed small fishes - same principal of soft tubing for gavage feeding.

If there are further questions on forced/gavage feeding, let's please make a new thread for the benefit of others and folks that search the archives in the future.

Bill Shultz · 11/06/2005, 10:38 PM

Another quick issue with the DSB bucket that I wanted to address for anyone who is thinking of creating a DSB using an ordinary 5 gal bucket:

For my bulkheads I just used the ordinary kind that you could buy for a few bucks at the local ACE hardware. My return bulkhead (which is mounted on the side of bucket) is of the standard variety -- and is not designed for a curved surface. I found that the walls of the bucket are flexable and thin enough that if you just tighten the bulkhead adequately, then it will seal even this slightly curved surface just fine.

Nothing fancy needed.

Earls · 11/08/2005, 09:22 AM

I just read all this and I am very interested. Two questions, what kind of sand would I use and how much water flow. I am having trouble with nitrates and nothing else seems to be working. Did anyone ever take Anthony up on doing a test? Thanks

Bill Shultz · 11/08/2005, 10:35 PM

Which regard to the style of buckets to use:

I say just use the buckets that the salt is sold in.

Anyone reading this thread with an interest in battleing high nitrates is probably no stranger to large, frequent water changes -- and thus having to buy lots of salt.

rolinjs · 11/12/2005, 10:43 AM

What if you put sulphur beads at the bottom of the bucket and filled the rest with aragonite. My thinking is that the bottom of the bucket is very anoxic, which is a good environment for the sulphur eating bacteria. The low pH would be neutralized with the aragonite.
Would this work?

Awright · 11/12/2005, 12:17 PM

I have been toying with the idea to install a DSB bucket. So I did.
Here are a few pics of the set-up. My nitrates were over 50ppm using Salifert test kit.

I used 3/4" uniseals on the lid & side of a 6.5 gallons Kent sea salt bucket.

Used a MJ1000 as the feed pump.

Installed.

SRVDVM · 11/14/2005, 10:53 AM

I like the idea of using aragonite sand in the bucket for buffering. 1) My question is do you need to use aragonite if you have a Ca reactor?
2) Since the pH of the water running through the bucket is basic (ph 8.3 +/-), I do not think any more Ca would leach out. Is this correct
3) what types of pumps are people using to run the water through? Would a simple power head work or is there a better suggestion?

Thanks

Anthony Calfo · 11/14/2005, 11:02 AM

1) as per earlier in the thread - another advantage of aragonite is its shape - oolitic (round/spheres) versus the angular shpaes of silica/sharp sand. The latter being a disadvantage as it packs tighter. Can be overcome... and no, aragonite is not needed. But I'd say its better on merit of shape if none other.

2)Nope... not correct. Aragonite dissolves at a much higher pH than Calcite. As such... a day time pH of 8.4 means a likely night time drop that will still dissolve aragonite slowly.

3)Hmmm... it's sounding like you really did not read the thread, my friend and are asking repeated question. It's a good thread if I may say so... truly worth the time to read. Please respect our time as well

In answer to your question, though... yes - a simple powerhead is fine. Discussions about flow to guide you on precise pump size can be found... er, well. You know

rolinjs · 11/14/2005, 03:50 PM

What would be better at stabalizing pH? DSB bucket or macro algea in the sump. I am having a pH problem on my reef tank (it is dropping to 7.7 at night. I was thinking of using macro to offset this drop in pH. After reading about the DSB bucket it sounds like it could keep pH up.

10/27/2005, 09:48 PM	#151
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	no sand stirrers needed on the unlit remote DSB is there is enough water flow to keep solids in suspension over it __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

10/29/2005, 09:01 AM	#153
Savatage Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Wausau, Wisconsin Posts: 361	I'm back ANTHONY or anyone. Here is a little different idea for the DSB bucket. What if I was to take my 75gal sump, section the middle 2 feet with glass. Holes drilled at the top. Here's the idea. Water comes in at one end of sump. goes through the holes at the top of the first sleve, running over two feet of sand, then exiting the other side at the top. Pouring through the holes and filling the other end of the sump where my skimmer and return pump sit. The sand bed in the middle will be 2' x 18" x 18" deep and done with black PVC so no light gets to the sand. What do you think????? I think it would work because of the size of the sump, it's all contained into one unit (drain, return, skimmer, cheato) and doesn't create an eyesore. I could sketch up a drawing of what it would look like, but I have no idea on how to do that on here. __________________ Oceans In The Hourglass Current Tank Info: 75gal. w/ 60gal. sump. Hair Algae Free :-). Superskimmer 65, Quiet one 3000, Magnum 350, 6"silica DSB, 12 silica RDSB, 24" Denitrator tube

10/29/2005, 09:05 AM	#154
Savatage Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Wausau, Wisconsin Posts: 361	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by RayinAZ ChinChek mentioned this a few posts above, but no one commented. Could I use my old Fluval 403 to create a "mini" bucket DSB? (I know it would be smaller volume-wise than a 5 gallon) I have a 100gallon glass tank with no sump or plumbing. I don't have room in back to hang an overflow box, so I'm looking for options. If I filled the canister with sand so it was 3-4 inches below the top and maybe added some foam up at the top (maybe one of the foam insets that came with?), as Anthony mentioned in a different context, to diffuse the water, would it work? Any thoughts would be appreciated! Ray PS CC, the nano's working great as Quarantine tank. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You might as well go to your local swimming pool store and buy you a medium sized sand filter. They are completely sealed, hold a lot of sand, no light, NO WORRIES! __________________ Oceans In The Hourglass Current Tank Info: 75gal. w/ 60gal. sump. Hair Algae Free :-). Superskimmer 65, Quiet one 3000, Magnum 350, 6"silica DSB, 12 silica RDSB, 24" Denitrator tube

10/29/2005, 11:35 AM	#156
captbunzo Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Ascot, Berkshire, England Posts: 3,950	Excellent plan - after all, we are only attempting to remove Nitrates from the water, and that is still going to be at full strength no matter where in the chain we put it. Not like a skimmer, which needs to be immediately after the tank overflow... __________________ Paul Thompson South Ascot, Berkshire, England RK: Where only bad things happen fast... CRAZY 4 the CRASE - Sometime 2008 Current Tank Info: 180 litre UK Reef

10/29/2005, 08:00 PM	#157
Savatage Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Wausau, Wisconsin Posts: 361	I think I will have to work on my plans a little more and see what I come with for the extremely deep sand. I still have to work on getting some sand though. I have no idea what the silica would turn out to be like. Anthony said that it would probably work just fine, but he had some concerns of the jagged edges of the silica. I need to find some type of aragonite sand. NOT old castle either. I don't want to turn it into a calcium rock in time. __________________ Oceans In The Hourglass Current Tank Info: 75gal. w/ 60gal. sump. Hair Algae Free :-). Superskimmer 65, Quiet one 3000, Magnum 350, 6"silica DSB, 12 silica RDSB, 24" Denitrator tube

10/29/2005, 08:06 PM	#158
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	aragonite only fuses when you allow your pH to drop low and usually rapidly as with misdosing calcium supplements (too much kalk too fast, for example) or having unstable pH (dropping very low at night). It's easy with good water quality/stability to avoid having aragonite fuse. I'm so very strict about maintaining a strong and stable pH (8.3-8.6... never lower than 8.3 at night)... I have yet to have aragonite fuse. I recommend high and stable pH for more than a few good reasons aside form this issue. FWIW __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

11/05/2005, 02:22 PM	#159
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Anthony, First off, thanks for such a valuable post for all of us who have been fighting Nitrates for years. I've recently set up a DSB in a 5 gallon bucket plummed into my sump. I was wondering: what is your opinion about the depth and consistency of the media which is in the DSB? In my bucket, I've placed about 5" of sand (sugar grain size), then I have 2" of Carib Sea Aragonite reef sand above that, and then my final 1/5" is a combination of Kent Marine's Nitrate Sponge and Seachem's DeNitrate (about 4 lbs between the two). I used this stratification in order to have the heavier rocks on top so to "protect" the sand underneath from being blown around. On top of my 8.5" of media, I have about 3.75" of water circulating at about 260 GPH. To get back to my question. . . Do you think I will need a deeper amount of the fine sand? I have noticed that most people do not seem to use a mix of media when they are creating these DSB buckets. Thanks. --Bill __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

11/05/2005, 02:54 PM	#160
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	I thought I'd include the recent pics to show everyone my setup which I described in the above post. You will notice that I used my Fluval MSF 304 Canister Filter to power the DSB bucket. The Fluval draws water from the sump return area after it has been mechanically filtered and skimmed. The Fluval pumpt into the 5 gallon bucket above and then a 3/4" bulkhead gravity drains the water back into my sump. http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...16RC-DSB-3.jpg

11/05/2005, 02:57 PM	#161
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	This last pic didn't show up above so I'll just repost it here. Sorry if anyone's bothered by scrolling past the big images, but I'm a fan of making the pics as clear as possible for your viewing pleasure. I'll keep you guys posted with my progress. On Day 1 my nitrates are 50 ppm. I'm hoping to check weekly. --Bill

11/05/2005, 06:14 PM	#162
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Part of my recent interest in aggressive nitrate control is that I have a beautiful pinktail trigger that has decided for the past month and a half that he is no longer interested in eating. His behavior has switched from swimming around the tank and only wedging himself into rocks periodically to the present behavior which includes laying in the corners of the tank and becoming so sickly that I can catch him with little effort. My tank has been pretty stable and the only variable that has been problematic is the nitrates. Ammonia, Nitrite are undetectable. I don't check, but I've got a good phosphate remover that I use. Temp and salinity are rock solid at 79 and 1.025 respectively. I have a porcupine puffer also in my 55 gallong tank who continues to thrive during my trigger's illness. Has anyone heard of this type of fish behavior from high nitrates? __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

11/06/2005, 01:18 AM	#163
RayinAZ Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 209	Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!) I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

11/06/2005, 01:24 AM	#164
RayinAZ Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 209	Thanks for the input on my question. I've been away from RC for a while (job and family--imagine that!) I'm intrigued by the pool filter idea. My neighbor's in the business . . .

11/06/2005, 12:49 PM	#165
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	cheers, Bill Thank you for your kind words my friend Your installation overall looks fine. Nice idea to have some coarse media atop to prevent fine sand from blowing around too easily. The mechanical prefiltration of the feed water spares the worry or concern over that such media trapping solids excessively. The flow from the Fluval is likely nicely moderate too. True... I would like to see more than 5" of fine sand for the DSB here... but it will be helpful as it is regardless. It may well be enough after all. As for the fishes not eating from high nitrates... it is documented over and over again, yes One of the more extreme expressions of it is Thyroid Hyperplasia (do some keyword searches for this). It can be caused by iodine deficiencies in the diet and/or high nitrtates (which inhibit the uptake of otherwise available iodine). A goiter is formed in the throat region which is generally not obvious until it is too late. still... it is reversible slowly over time (months). Force feeding willl be necessary after 3-4 weeks without feeding (PM me if needed). Reduce nitrates to near zero and provide an iodine rich diet (fresh/thawed shellfish ala shrimp, crabs, etc) and Lugols iodine supplemented to the water in small daily doses faithfully (follow the reef supplement mfg dose recommendations here to start with safely). best of luck, Anthony __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

11/06/2005, 04:49 PM	#166
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Anthony, Thanks for the rapid response. I did try to forcefeed my pinktail with some sucess already. My earlier post had a few typos in it . . . I have 8.5" of total media in my bucket: 5" of sand 2" of the 1-2mm size Aragonite and then about 1.5" of the larger rocks on the very top. Even though I have only 5" of sand in the bottom, do you think the 2" of Aragonite on top of this will help contribute to the total depth of the bed and (hopefully) provide for the anaerobic environment I'm hoping to achieve? Time will tell the story, but don't some people create DSB's by using Aragonite alone? And finally, as I know that other people will surely read this forum looking for answers (as I have), I would like to hear and any techniques you have for force feeding ailing fish. Thanks again for your time. --Bill

11/06/2005, 06:40 PM	#167
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	Pufferqueen (LMAS' Ms Kelly Jedlicki) has shown me techniques for using soft airline tubing and a syringe (no needle... the tubing hooks up to the nozzle) for injecting a high protein mash (slurry with cyclop-eeze, Selcon, etc... whatever is needed for the species/specimen). It takes some basic thought and consideration for the anatomy of the creature. Yet with slow insertion of the soft feeding tube.. you can proceed slowly until you reach the gut and feel a slight resistence. (a transverse piece of rigid airline tubing can be used as a bite stick to prevent small toothy fishes from closing down on the soft tubing). It's quite easy after you have been shown in person.l It at all possible, do see if a local very works with aquatics. The office visit fee will be well worth the lesson. Professionals (and folks with access to hospital supplies ) often use a tiny catheter made for infants to force feed small fishes - same principal of soft tubing for gavage feeding. If there are further questions on forced/gavage feeding, let's please make a new thread for the benefit of others and folks that search the archives in the future. __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

11/06/2005, 10:38 PM	#168
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Another quick issue with the DSB bucket that I wanted to address for anyone who is thinking of creating a DSB using an ordinary 5 gal bucket: For my bulkheads I just used the ordinary kind that you could buy for a few bucks at the local ACE hardware. My return bulkhead (which is mounted on the side of bucket) is of the standard variety -- and is not designed for a curved surface. I found that the walls of the bucket are flexable and thin enough that if you just tighten the bulkhead adequately, then it will seal even this slightly curved surface just fine. Nothing fancy needed. __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

11/08/2005, 09:22 AM	#169
Earls Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: wild and wonderful southern West Virginia Posts: 1	I just read all this and I am very interested. Two questions, what kind of sand would I use and how much water flow. I am having trouble with nitrates and nothing else seems to be working. Did anyone ever take Anthony up on doing a test? Thanks __________________ 72 gal. bowfront wet/dry trickle filter 600 gph return pump 3 160 gph powerheads skimmer 260 watt light w/lunars 75 pounds live rock 1 maroon clown 1 yellow watchman goby 2 damsels 1 red star several snails and crabs 1 couliflower coral 1 pumping xenia Current Tank Info: 72 gal. bowfront, wet/dry trickle filter, 75 pounds live rock

11/08/2005, 10:35 PM	#170
Bill Shultz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 115	Which regard to the style of buckets to use: I say just use the buckets that the salt is sold in. Anyone reading this thread with an interest in battleing high nitrates is probably no stranger to large, frequent water changes -- and thus having to buy lots of salt. __________________ --Bill Current Tank Info: 55gal FOWLR marine with a 15gal sump, 10gal marine quarantine, 15gal freshwater

11/12/2005, 10:43 AM	#171
rolinjs Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chico, CA Posts: 63	DSB in bucket w/aragonite & sulphur? What if you put sulphur beads at the bottom of the bucket and filled the rest with aragonite. My thinking is that the bottom of the bucket is very anoxic, which is a good environment for the sulphur eating bacteria. The low pH would be neutralized with the aragonite. Would this work?

11/12/2005, 12:17 PM	#172
Awright Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 177	I have been toying with the idea to install a DSB bucket. So I did. Here are a few pics of the set-up. My nitrates were over 50ppm using Salifert test kit. I used 3/4" uniseals on the lid & side of a 6.5 gallons Kent sea salt bucket. Used a MJ1000 as the feed pump. Installed. __________________ Andy Current Tank Info: 150 Gallon Saltwater, (2) 400 MH (1) 250 MH, (2) 72" VHO actinic, 40 G sump w/Euroreef CS8-2, 200 lbs LR,

11/14/2005, 10:53 AM	#173
SRVDVM Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 71	I like the idea of using aragonite sand in the bucket for buffering. 1) My question is do you need to use aragonite if you have a Ca reactor? 2) Since the pH of the water running through the bucket is basic (ph 8.3 +/-), I do not think any more Ca would leach out. Is this correct 3) what types of pumps are people using to run the water through? Would a simple power head work or is there a better suggestion? Thanks __________________ Some of its magic, some of its tragic but I had a good life all the way Current Tank Info: 90 g reef (that is what it is supposed to be)

11/14/2005, 11:02 AM	#174
Anthony Calfo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 5,436	1) as per earlier in the thread - another advantage of aragonite is its shape - oolitic (round/spheres) versus the angular shpaes of silica/sharp sand. The latter being a disadvantage as it packs tighter. Can be overcome... and no, aragonite is not needed. But I'd say its better on merit of shape if none other. 2)Nope... not correct. Aragonite dissolves at a much higher pH than Calcite. As such... a day time pH of 8.4 means a likely night time drop that will still dissolve aragonite slowly. 3)Hmmm... it's sounding like you really did not read the thread, my friend and are asking repeated question. It's a good thread if I may say so... truly worth the time to read. Please respect our time as well In answer to your question, though... yes - a simple powerhead is fine. Discussions about flow to guide you on precise pump size can be found... er, well. You know __________________ "If you give a man a fish, he eats for a day... but if you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime." Current Tank Info: 2K gallon fishroom, garden ponds

11/14/2005, 03:50 PM	#175
rolinjs Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chico, CA Posts: 63	What would be better at stabalizing pH? DSB bucket or macro algea in the sump. I am having a pH problem on my reef tank (it is dropping to 7.7 at night. I was thinking of using macro to offset this drop in pH. After reading about the DSB bucket it sounds like it could keep pH up.