Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[polyped]

I am having a 60 X 24 X 24 built and up till today was going to use a herbie with overflow boxes. I now want to have an external coast to coast overflow with bean's set up. A few questions. I will be using a dart (4300 gph) that will feed the tank and a frag tank (probably herbie here)

1) How deep / wide should the external overflow be? Bulkheads in the bottom or side of the overflow box? (would prefer the bottom to keep width down)

2) Should I use 2" piping to ensure plenty of water for the dart to push or will 1.5 be sufficient?

3) How can I set up my sump so that my internal venturi skimmer will have a slow enough flow rate? Dedicate the siphon to the skimmer the other drain to another portion of the sump? (I want as much return flow as possible {sps dominated} yet still provide the skimmer with adequate contact time with passing water.

4) Any way to hide the return lines (rimless tank)? i.e. cut holes for the return or just pipe them over the top?

Thank you so much in advance for any help.

[mkarston]

beanAnimal,

I've read most of this and the old Herbie thread in search for a good overflow solution for my system. I have a 210 gal display, 75 gal sump, and 40gal fuge.

My display is an AGA with 2 built-in overflow boxes, each contains (1) 3/4" bulkhead & (1) 1" bulkhead. I just purchased a Reeflo BlackFin 3500 and expect it will be pushing between 1800gph and 2000gph after head pressure loss and tapping off the return to feed my fuge.

If I set up all 4 pipes (2 in each overflow box) as standard durso pipes, I fear I may not have enough buffer room to handle the amount of flow I want to push through my tank; hence the searching for and reading of this thread.

2 questions:

1. Can I accomplish your design given my current overflow boxes (I don't have 3 bulkheads per overflow)? If not do you have any recommendations for a modified version of your design?

2. The focus of this thread has been on “quieting the overflow�. This is nice, but my focus is drainage capacity. Do you think this method provides me the best drainage capacity for my setup, or would I be better off with 4 durso (regardless if it is louder or not).
Also, I drop my water into a filter sock, and the end of the pipe is above the water level in my sump. The filter sock dampens the noise and it is in a closet in an adjacent room anyways...

Thanks in advance for the help.

[dzhuo]

Just a quick question, how much higher should the secondary drain (the one with the air opening on top) be compare to the primary drain?

[Emory Speight]

Hey Bean, I will be receiving today a new 260g.(84"x30"x25 h") and was planning on copying your design for the drains. I had planned to use the calfo-style overflow going across one of the 30" ends, but it recently dawned on me that the 3" euro-bracing would be a problem for the internal calfo overflow. Can you or someone who has had to deal with this type of situation suggest a way to incorporate this type of overflow without going external? The tank has not been drilled and has no overflows so I will be starting with a clean slate. Thanks.

[Thomas Jones]

Bean, First off awsome work. I saw you post and it got my wheels turning. I was thinking of doing a 75 like you. Do you think 2 set of the calfo overflows will work on a 75. I wanna try to set up a 75 without having to use power heads. I know a big pump is needed. My plan was to use 2 of the reeflo balck fin 6000. So each calfo would have approx. 4000 GPH. Any input or have I lost my mind.

[Thomas Jones]

mkarston just saw your post. I run a small pet store in eastern NC.(greenville) Good too see local folks.
I was thinking if you could drill the tank and add a calfo overflow in there and use the AGA overflos as returns. Just an idea.

[mkarston]

Hey Thomas, how are you. Yeah, drilling would be too much work for me to take on right now. I would have to tear down my whole reef.

[dzhuo]

Anyone think this is similar to Bean's design and should work as well?



From the owner of this image, here is how it works:

BEGIN QUOTE

Once things get flowing, you dial the gate valve back until the water begins to back up into the overflow box. At a magic point, the water level in the overflow box begins to generate enough head pressure to precisely match the amount of flow you are putting in. At that point, water flows silently into the sump because no air is drawn into the drains...No air, no sound, no bubbles, no splashing in the sump..silence.

END QUOTE

It seems to me this is very similar to Bean's design and might actually work better ?

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Rizup
I would have two dursos without vent holes

Then they are not "dursos" they are just standpipes

Then I would have another durso with the vent and this one would be set a little higher than the full siphon correct?

Yes.. It can be at the same height, but raising it a 1/2" or so may make your tuning a bit easier.

Same as in your diagram but in the internal overflow.

Yes, it will work the same.

I was thinking that I should be able to make the dursos work for this by changing the angle of the elbow where necessary. My only concern is that in order to keep air out of the full siphon drain, I will probably need to keep it's height shorter, does this sound right? Will this introduce more of a water fall effect or will the open channel compensate for this?

Keeping the siphon deeper will keep the air out. The valve on the siphon standpipe adjusts the water level in the box also.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by zachtos
Bean, I'm looking for a wet end (56J) for a VFD project I'm planning. Sequence/Reeflo do not want to sell me a wet-end w/o a motor and I read that you had some laying around? Willing to sell? What types are they etc?

Most of my "stuff" has gone... I have a few hayward spa pumps somewhere (brothers shed I think). 56J wetends should be fairly easy to find though.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by MSU Fan
Thanks for everything Bean - I just got my tank running. I know that you said you pushed the envelope on how much flow it can handle, but do you know if the water pipes are as silent if you undersupply the flow?

Right now I only have ~300gph going through this set up (same sizing as you proposed), so I am not sure I get this silent because there is so little flow in it. Any thoughts?

If setup properly, then yes they should be as silent. The siphon should make no noise. The open channel may make noise if you have a stream of water dropping straight down the middle of it though. There are plenty of creative ways to fix this....

canting the pipe to the side...
slide a bit of airline tubing into it....
etc...

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by NaClTDog
Bean, great stuff here and on your web site!!!! And from p-burg!!! Steeler Fan, good God man do you drink Iron City?

Ok little of topic but my real question is on your web site you built a base for your tank with some type of mdf or something, what I want to know about is the process of the clear arcylic self leveling sealer. what it is, where to get it......

thanks

I am a Cowboys fan...
I do drink Iron City beer...
I used self leveling "table top" epoxy. (US Composites is a supplier)

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by polyped
I am having a 60 X 24 X 24 built and up till today was going to use a herbie with overflow boxes. I now want to have an external coast to coast overflow with bean's set up. A few questions. I will be using a dart (4300 gph) that will feed the tank and a frag tank (probably herbie here)

1) How deep / wide should the external overflow be? Bulkheads in the bottom or side of the overflow box? (would prefer the bottom to keep width down)

Bottom. Size, enough to fit the standpipes and elbows and get your hand in to do work.

2) Should I use 2" piping to ensure plenty of water for the dart to push or will 1.5 be sufficient?

There are a lot of variables... but 2" would be fine.

3) How can I set up my sump so that my internal venturi skimmer will have a slow enough flow rate? Dedicate the siphon to the skimmer the other drain to another portion of the sump? (I want as much return flow as possible {sps dominated} yet still provide the skimmer with adequate contact time with passing water.

Tough question... Some folks have teed off the siphon standpipe to feed the skimmer compartment.

4) Any way to hide the return lines (rimless tank)? i.e. cut holes for the return or just pipe them over the top?

Only you can decide that.. .over the top works fine... but drilling is cool too. The oceans motions devices are wonderful in either case.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by mkarston
beanAnimal,

I've read most of this and the old Herbie thread in search for a good overflow solution for my system. I have a 210 gal display, 75 gal sump, and 40gal fuge.

My display is an AGA with 2 built-in overflow boxes, each contains (1) 3/4" bulkhead & (1) 1" bulkhead. I just purchased a Reeflo BlackFin 3500 and expect it will be pushing between 1800gph and 2000gph after head pressure loss and tapping off the return to feed my fuge.

If I set up all 4 pipes (2 in each overflow box) as standard durso pipes, I fear I may not have enough buffer room to handle the amount of flow I want to push through my tank; hence the searching for and reading of this thread.

2 questions:

1. Can I accomplish your design given my current overflow boxes (I don't have 3 bulkheads per overflow)? If not do you have any recommendations for a modified version of your design?

There is no easy way to setup my system between 2 boxes. You are pretty much stuck with the "herbie" setups in each box and no failsafe.

2. The focus of this thread has been on “quieting the overflow�. This is nice, but my focus is drainage capacity. Do you think this method provides me the best drainage capacity for my setup, or would I be better off with 4 durso (regardless if it is louder or not).

A single 1" siphon will easily outperform 2 dursos, if not 3 or 4 (depending on how they are adjusted, as a durso can be pushed noisily towards a full siphon.)

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by dzhuo
Just a quick question, how much higher should the secondary drain (the one with the air opening on top) be compare to the primary drain?

1/2" - 1" maybe... Anyting is better than nothing, but the setup can work with them at the same height (you just have to be aware that you can not submerge the pipe exits deep into the sump).

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Emory Speight
Hey Bean, I will be receiving today a new 260g.(84"x30"x25 h") and was planning on copying your design for the drains. I had planned to use the calfo-style overflow going across one of the 30" ends, but it recently dawned on me that the 3" euro-bracing would be a problem for the internal calfo overflow. Can you or someone who has had to deal with this type of situation suggest a way to incorporate this type of overflow without going external? The tank has not been drilled and has no overflows so I will be starting with a clean slate. Thanks.

It will be tough. The bracing will make it hard (impossible) to work into the overflow box. Making the box big enough to work in is going to take up a lot of realestate... Sorry I don't have a better answer.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Thomas Jones
Bean, First off awsome work. I saw you post and it got my wheels turning. I was thinking of doing a 75 like you. Do you think 2 set of the calfo overflows will work on a 75. I wanna try to set up a 75 without having to use power heads. I know a big pump is needed. My plan was to use 2 of the reeflo balck fin 6000. So each calfo would have approx. 4000 GPH. Any input or have I lost my mind.

2 boxes are hard to get into sync. You don't want to push that much through the sump anyway. Use closed loops instead.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by dzhuo
Anyone think this is similar to Bean's design and should work as well?



From the owner of this image, here is how it works:

BEGIN QUOTE

Once things get flowing, you dial the gate valve back until the water begins to back up into the overflow box. At a magic point, the water level in the overflow box begins to generate enough head pressure to precisely match the amount of flow you are putting in. At that point, water flows silently into the sump because no air is drawn into the drains...No air, no sound, no bubbles, no splashing in the sump..silence.

END QUOTE

It seems to me this is very similar to Bean's design and might actually work better ?

Work better? It is a "herbie" with an extra emergency drain. If you read my design notes, you will see why the open channel standpipe is an improvement. My setup is more fail-safe/redundant/self-tuning with less plumbing than what is pictured above. I.E I can safely get the same flow out of (3) standpipes with less chance of failure or the need to adjust the system. Also teeing (2) siphons into a single pipe is kind of pointless unless the lower pipe has the combined cross sectional area of the upper (2) pipes. My setup (or herbies) can use multiple siphons to increase overall capacity. In any case... to each their own

[dzhuo]

Sorry Bean, not mean to "insult" your design or anything. Just so you know, I am completely new to plumbing and when I say "better", I just mean the look of it (mostly) and I can understand the design behind it simply by looking at the picture alone.

With this herbie design, all 4 drains are standpipe and requires very little fittings, connecting, sealing, plumbing which is important for newbie like myself.

What's the significant fail safe your design has over this herbie design? It seems like 2 emergency drain are better than one?

Also, will the herbie be as silent as your design? One last question, I only have a 150g and I am planning to use Ehiem 1262 as my return, will the return by enough for either your or the herbie design?

btw, I did read your thread (to like page 20 or so) and will keep reading it ....

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by dzhuo
Sorry Bean, not mean to "insult" your design or anything.

Not insulted at all... just cranking out responses so I can go to bed

Just so you know, I am completely new to plumbing and when I say "better", I just mean the look of it (mostly) and I can understand the design behind it simply by looking at the picture alone.

You kinda lost me there I responded to "better" in terms of function, not look

With this herbie design, all 4 drains are standpipe and requires very little fittings, connecting, sealing, plumbing which is important for newbie like myself.

You lost me there also. It takes (4) bulkheads. Mine takes (3). Both setups (mine and that one shown) take a single valve.

What's the significant fail safe your design has over this herbie design? It seems like 2 emergency drain are better than one?

I would direct you to the first post in this thread or my website for an explanation of the fail-safe and self-tuning features.

Also, will the herbie be as silent as your design? One last question, I only have a 150g and I am planning to use Ehiem 1262 as my return, will the return by enough for either your or the herbie design?

Either setup will work. The choice comes down to comfort level.

[dzhuo]

Hey Bean,
Would this herbie design work with a single emergency drain? I actually have my tank drilled for 3 holes thinking I am going to use your design but then I figure, for some reason, I thought this herbie design is easier for me to install but the problem is now that I only have 3 holes instead of 4. I was thinking 2 holes will be used as primary and the other one will be emergency. Will this work?

You lost me there also. It takes (4) bulkheads. Mine takes (3). Both setups (mine and that one shown) take a single valve.

I am mainly referring to this picture:



It seems like a lot of stuff to buy and connect, etc... The herbie only has a bulkhead and then a single standpipe.

[norgemorir]

First off, BeAn, great thread and plan, I've enjoyed reading the whole thread, though it has taken a week.

I would appreciate your input or any others who can tell me if this plan has merit. I've seen the topic mentioned and a few photos of versions but due to my future confines I wanted to propose this setup.

Constraints:
1) Use as little inner space as possible but get the best surface skim
2) Limit the protrusion into the room for the tank as a whole (just due to positioning in the room)

I have a window behind the tank with very large molding which sticks out 2~2.5" from the wall. I'd like to avoid cutting it or accommodating it in order to do a coast to coast externally.

So this plan places a smaller external box on 1 side of the molding which I would like to shrink to whatever length allows me to squeeze in the 3 pipes and have room to tweak them. Here for speed of getting something together, i put 22" length.



Thanks, Matt

[NVReefer]

i am a newb and have read most all of this thread, wow, amazing.
can you give me your thoughts on this,
100g cube, will have a sump. just trying to get the drains worked out, i see the driller tomorrow with my plan so any help is appreciated.
viewed from back

thanks for the great reading.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by dzhuo
Hey Bean,
Would this herbie design work with a single emergency drain? I actually have my tank drilled for 3 holes thinking I am going to use your design but then I figure, for some reason, I thought this herbie design is easier for me to install but the problem is now that I only have 3 holes instead of 4. I was thinking 2 holes will be used as primary and the other one will be emergency. Will this work?

With all due respect, I am having trouble following your logic. I can't answer your questions becuase they don't make sense to me.

Let me try though:
You said you think the other design with (4) standpipes is "easier" but you have 3 holes. If you go back and read the plans my design uses (3) holes setup in a specific way.

It seems like a lot of stuff to buy and connect, etc... The herbie only has a bulkhead and then a single standpipe.

No the herbie overflow has (2) bulkheads and (2) standpipes.

I don't think you are getting the differences and similarities betwee this setup and others.

They are all standard PVC fittings. ANY overflow plumbed through the back wall of the tank (or overflow box) is going to need the same basic fittings. The TEES can be replaced with elbows. I added the "cleanout" capability as an extra feature. It is optional. The shallow overflow box requires down turned elbows for my setup AND for a 'herbie' setup. They both require bulkheads and gaskets. They both require elbow and couplers. In a DEEP overflow box, you don't need the downturned elbows becuase the depth of the water prevents air from entering the standpipe.

My setup adds an "open channel" that helps with self tuning. The added airline is also an option but adds a very robust "fail-safe" feature to the setup. This is all clearly explained here and in the long thread and at my website. You may want to spend a little more time looking at oveflows and understanding how they work before you decide on what suits your setup best

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by norgemorir
First off, BeAn, great thread and plan, I've enjoyed reading the whole thread, though it has taken a week.

I would appreciate your input or any others who can tell me if this plan has merit. I've seen the topic mentioned and a few photos of versions but due to my future confines I wanted to propose this setup.

Constraints:
1) Use as little inner space as possible but get the best surface skim
2) Limit the protrusion into the room for the tank as a whole (just due to positioning in the room)

I have a window behind the tank with very large molding which sticks out 2~2.5" from the wall. I'd like to avoid cutting it or accommodating it in order to do a coast to coast externally.

So this plan places a smaller external box on 1 side of the molding which I would like to shrink to whatever length allows me to squeeze in the 3 pipes and have room to tweak them. Here for speed of getting something together, i put 22" length.



Thanks, Matt

Matt your proposed setup should work just. A few others have done the same thing in an effort to save space inside the tank.