Tonga Ban

[gigi4539]

Greenbean,

Tell me why Australia's Barrier Reef has made a significant improvement in growth along the shelf lines. Most likely because of the bans in place. How about the significant sea life in Pendecamp Park? It is not my responsibility to keep the Tongan folks a living. I do not promise Walt Smith a living with his business. What I do know is we must do what we can to preserve what we have in our environment today. This hobby has made leaps and bounds in farming, fragging, aquaculturing and making a positive impact on our environment. Please do not make excuses for us to break the law or keep people in jobs in a foreign country. Everything in my tank is from farm grown frags, aquacultured and created with out any impact on a reef. Now im agine someone saying well since we have cars that run on electric, ( not far in the future ) and no need for oil! I need to buy Oil from the middle east to keep the people there in jobs. When did it become my responsibility to provide jobs to someone in a foreign country? I suggest you get with a bank and start a fund that other people can donate to, to help them out. Maybe if the expoters and collectors had been a little more respectful or policed themselves. And as for Isreal, They did what they had to to preserve or rebuild and protect the reefs they have. Once again man proves lack of respect and caring. I am doing something to help rebuild reefs. I educate people on aquaculture, reef farming. Others in this hobby also do such as Garf. This hobby is paying for rebuilding the reefs when we buy from farmers instead of divers and exporters. Lets debate the impact of man on reefs and not on the fact that I am responsible for keeping some foreigner in jobs. What about clam farming, invert farming, fish farming? That is called diversifying or not putting all your eggs in one basket!

[greenbean36191]

No one is making excuses for breaking laws or trying to claim you have any responsibility to keep foreigners employed.

I am doing something to help rebuild reefs. I educate people on aquaculture, reef farming. Others in this hobby also do such as Garf. This hobby is paying for rebuilding the reefs when we buy from farmers instead of divers and exporters.

Trading frags grown over here and educating people about farming does absolutely nothing to rebuild the reef and almost nothing to slow their destruction. This argument completely ignores the political and economic situation.

The US, Australia, and Israel are all developed countries with economic opportunities, the resources to enforce their environmental laws, and the majority of their populations aren't dependent on the reefs for their livelihood. Comparing them to the areas in the Indo-pacific and Caribbean where collection is occurring is apples to oranges. These are primarily third world countries. The federal governments are poor and don't have the resources to enforce the current environmental laws, much less new ones. The fact that most of these areas are tribally controlled and almost everyone depends on the reef for their livelihood makes that almost impossible too.

The best basement farmers can hope to do is reduce or eliminate our demand for wild corals. What good does that do for the reefs though? Stopping the hobby's demand for corals doesn't eliminate the demand for goods from the reef. These people have to make a living one way or another and the reef is their main resource. That's where they get their food and it's how they get their money. We're hardly the only group willing to pay them for what they can extract. There is demand for shells and coral for the jewelry, curio, and clothing industries. The construction and cement industry will pay them for coral, liverock, shells, and sand. The food and supplement industry will pay them for coral, rock, sand, algae, fish, and inverts. Most of these industries pay less (so more has to be extracted) and they use less selective methods. Eliminating the demand for the hobby does very little to reduce demand for products from the reef. All it does is shift it to these other industries. If you lost your job you wouldn't just give up and live without an income. Neither do these people. It just happens that going down to the McDonald's and applying isn't an option for them. The reef is their source of income whether it's through us or someone else.

You can try to ban everyone else from paying them too, but that ban is only as good as the ability to enforce it. When there's one officer per 1000 miles and he doesn't have a boat and hasn't been paid in a month (which is a pretty common occurrence), the laws are pretty meaningless.

As hobbyists we can either encourage the collectors to practice sustainable levels of wild collection (not likely to happen) or we can promote other economic alternatives for them to help get them out of the consumptive use business. Promoting in situ farming accomplishes that goal while still providing us with corals, if they're slightly more expensive. Growing them at home undermines the attempts to establish in situ aquaculture. If you would rather spend $10 for a frag grown in Bubba's basement, than $40 for one grown in Indonesia, what incentive do the Indonesians have to farm rather than just harvest?

Whether or not the foreigners are employed and by whom is directly tied to their impact on the reef. Hobbyists can either put their money where their mouth is and pay a premium to have a real effect or they can keep patting themselves on the backs and feeling good while they bury their heads in the sand.

[JNye]

Seriously? Your stance is that I should not frags because it UNDERCUTs wild corals? What? I'll continue buying Bubba's $10 frags. I guess that leads to the destruction of the reef.
You exxagerate every single point in your post.

[billsreef]

Actually greenbean didn't exaggerate. If a reef in a third world island nation is worth more as cement, the locals will mine it in mass for construction material. If it's worth more as a healthy reef growing coral, they will protect it as such. That is the reality in such areas.

[RicksReefs]

Originally posted by poo-tang
Seriously?

seriously.

[RichardS]

We're hardly the only group willing to pay them for what they can extract. There is demand for shells and coral for the jewelry, curio, and clothing industries. The construction and cement industry will pay them for coral, liverock, shells, and sand. The food and supplement industry will pay them for coral, rock, sand, algae, fish, and inverts. Most of these industries pay less (so more has to be extracted) and they use less selective methods. Eliminating the demand for the hobby does very little to reduce demand for products from the reef. All it does is shift it to these other industries.

Those other industries are already putting pressure on the reefs. So it isn't an either/or situation. I don't see the logic in saying hobbyist's should buy wc because these people might do something worse if we don't. That's like saying we need buy from crack dealers because if they don't sell crack they might start robbing people. If these countries/people are not willing to protect their reefs then there isn't much that can be done about it. How they destroy them doesn't really matter then does it?

If Bubba's frag is cheaper and is proven to thrive and retain coloration in an aquarium then Bubba has a better product and I'll spend my money on Bubba's product.

[fijiblue]

Hobbyists can either put their money where their mouth is and pay a premium to have a real effect or they can keep patting themselves on the backs and feeling good while they bury their heads in the sand

If a reef in a third world island nation is worth more as cement, the locals will mine it in mass for construction material. If it's worth more as a healthy reef growing coral, they will protect it as such.

Both of you couldn't have said it any better!

[JNye]

I still think a lot of what you are saying is exxageratted, I don't doubt you have a higher knowlede of the situation...but even still, as Richard points out, it is not the hobbyists situation to fix, or his fault.

seriously.

really? Its just really hard to stomach that we should be looked at as protectors of a reef that locals seemily care nothing about.

[greenbean36191]

Your stance is that I should not frags because it UNDERCUTs wild corals?

I don't see the logic in saying hobbyist's should buy wc

Go back and read what I actually said and not what you think I said. I'm not suggesting hobbyists should buy WC. I'm suggesting they should support the development of in situ aquaculture by buying corals that were grown over there rather than over here.

You exxagerate every single point in your post.

Anyone who has met the collectors or worked in management can attest that I'm not exaggerating at all. The situation really is that sad. In the Philippines, a typical collector might make $10 a week if the weather cooperates.

Those other industries are already putting pressure on the reefs. So it isn't an either/or situation.

You're right, it's not an either or situation. The difference is in scale. It's a matter of how many people are doing it and whether you have artisanal collection or industrialized. For example, do you have locals going out and collecting sand and rock by the bag or foreign corporations paying them to run heavy machinery and ship it out by the ton. Are the locals subsistence fishing or muro ami fishing for Japanese boats?

The Maldives are an excellent example. They've always had people mining reef sand and rock for local construction. They used to do it by hand and would fill potato sacks and it was all used locally. Within the last 2 years they're using tractors and dumptrucks and shipping it to India.

In the Ryukyus they've started using suction dredges to harvest the sand and rubble for pharmaceuticals. They're getting almost nothing for it, but it's more than they can get from the hobby and more than they can get just doing it by hand.

That's like saying we need buy from crack dealers because if they don't sell crack they might start robbing people.

Not even close. It's like saying rather than ignoring the crack dealer and hoping he goes out of business, you help him get into rehab and find a legitimate job so he doesn't have to sell drugs or rob people.

If these countries/people are not willing to protect their reefs then there isn't much that can be done about it.

Its just really hard to stomach that we should be looked at as protectors of a reef that locals seemily care nothing about.

The issue has nothing to do with how much the locals care about their reefs. This is their source of food, shelter, and money. No matter how much they care about the reefs, they don't have the luxury of just closing up shop and finding something else to do. The governments can pass laws telling them to do just that, (and they have) but it doesn't matter because they have no resources to enforce the laws and the people have no option but to break them. It's like going back in time and telling Native Americans they have to cut back on their hunt so us Europeans can have a sustainable supply of buffalo hides and then blaming them for not caring.

If things are going to change, these people need outside help. As consumers of their product, at least IMO, we have some responsibility to do that. We have the ability too. Despite what lots of hobbyists like to tell themselves, we aren't doing it though. When it comes down to it, most people choose the cheaper option rather than the one that could make a real difference.

If Bubba's frag is cheaper and is proven to thrive and retain coloration in an aquarium then Bubba has a better product and I'll spend my money on Bubba's product.

And if those are the criteria you look for when purchasing a coral that's certainly the reasonable choice. If helping out the wild reefs is one of your main criteria, like many hobbyists claim, don't delude yourself into thinking you've helped them out by choosing the way you did.

[fijiblue]

I think it basically comes down to those that know the situation and those that think they know the situation. This thread could go on and on without resolution and/or agreement. To each his own I guess.

[gigi4539]

No! It is not the hobbiest responsibility to fix this problem in Tonga. I as a hobbiest will buy from a farmer because of the following reasons.

1. Easier to acclimate then from the wild
2. Does not pilfer and destroy the reefs.
3. Deters people from pulling corals from a reef because they do not sell as well.
4. Saves me money because I do not have to pay for shipping from the Pacific region.

Greenbean,

I have done something to help save the reefs! I will not buy anything from the oceans unless it is farmed. Again ask yourself!
Why would Tonga shut down its live rock exportations? Because they have too much to export??????? They see a problem that if not dealt with now, there will be no more. As for the officer without a boat! Maybe if he had been doing a better job, or the industry helped support the Tonga goverenment! After all, it is now the exporters that are crying because they are not able to pilfer the reefs of natural resources and devistate them.

[RichardS]

And if those are the criteria you look for when purchasing a coral that's certainly the reasonable choice. If helping out the wild reefs is one of your main criteria, like many hobbyists claim, don't delude yourself into thinking you've helped them out by choosing the way you did.

I don't delude myself into thinking that any aspect of me keeping aquariums for personal pleasure is helpful to the reefs or the environment in general.

[blange3]

Originally posted by RichardS
I don't delude myself into thinking that any aspect of me keeping aquariums for personal pleasure is helpful to the reefs or the environment in general.

But it could.

The greatest influence the average person has on making the world a better place today is to choose wisely what they spend their money on.


There is precedence for supporting the model Greenbean describes in other areas as well. Do a websearch on Fair Trade or specifically Fair Trade coffee.

Thanks Greenbean for fighting the good fight! Also thanks for bringing back your avatar friend!

[JNye]

GB-you're right you did say farmed from Indo, i missed that, you say "don't delude yourself into thinking you've helped them out by choosing the way you did." It certainly doesn't hurt the reef, maybe I'm not "helping them out"(the locals) but I'm doing nothing to damage the reef.
Either way it seems like a sad state of affairs, like most problems in the world, although a solution is very possible sometimes it eludes us anyway.

[Walt Smith]

Hi All,
I actually PM'd a friend this and asked him to post it if he felt it would do some good. I could not hold off any longer because the argument is constantly going back to emotional statements that are not really based on any fact considering the reefs and our harvest. It is ok to say "no take" for the good of our environment but take a look around first. What about the sand in your tank, the power it takes to light - manufacture - chill - heat and stock all the components of your wonderful reef. We are consumers and always will be. In my view the power of our hobby lies in the ability to create awareness such as seen on this thread and inspire stewardship of our planet through educational ways of sharing the living world with people that had never seen or thought of issues like this before. Sure there are some bad apples in this industry just as in all industries but why condemn us all ... seek out those that put their morals and money where their mouth is and support them. The world is a wonderful place and we all have a chance to experience, learn from and share its treasures.

What gives some of these people the tenure to preach that we are devastating the reefs? Where is the experience they need to make such a statement? This is only acting on emotional, perceived notions that actual devastation is taking place without telling us what they actually know about the situation.
The fact of the matter is that the Tongan Government does not give a rats butt about the reefs. On almost any low tide you will see hundreds of Tongans walking all over the reef and smashing coral with crow bars to get a few snails and octopus for food. It is our industry that tried to show these "fishermen" a better way to earn a living and protect their resource for the future. I could not believe it when I first saw this 19 years ago and it happens all over the island at low tide.
There is no devastation occurring through our trade and if you ACUALLY see the resource compared to the size of the export you will soon realize that this is true. I have often compared it to pruning a plant. Most hobbyists should know by now how fast most of the coral we utilize grows. The fact is, it grows faster than our harvest, I see the main problem is that most of these hobbyists look at their 100 gallon tank and think that that is the size of the universe not realizing how miniscule our harvest really is and how fast the reef replenished itself. It is all based on emotion and not science or proper study by reef ecologist.
The Tongan situation is very dark and corrupt and has nothing to do with saving the reef. I have been there for 19 years and we still produce the same numbers as year one from the same areas ....does that sound like depletion of a resource?
Perhaps the real deal is that the Tongan Department of Fisheries (who issue the permits) has broken all communications with the main body of Government and is running their own show. When I was there two months ago to participate in a workshop to help steer a reasonable phase out period as a transition into farming the Fisheries would not even come to the meetings to hear our concerns.
Instead, they have over 30 (probably more) fishing boats from Taiwan stealing all the fish from the local companies and the heads of fisheries were in Spain at that time collecting huge money so Spain could fish our waters. One of the criteria was to close other kind of fisheries so that they could "appear" to be doing some good and the people would not burn the town down again when they found out the truth.
The result of their reef saving actions was to put not only our industry out of business but also the local tuna and snapper industry that has been there longer than me. Tonga now has a situation where there is more than 50% less fish caught and whatever export dollars can be earned for Tonga is possibly ļ going right into the pockets of the local politicians who put this "wonderful" deal together and all exports go directly to Spain and Taiwan with less food fish for the Tongan families and companies.
If you go to the Tonga Warf today you will see how this is true. There is nothing but big old rusty boats from Taiwan and more coming in soon from Spain. If you talk with some of the local exporting companies that have been there more than twenty years you will find out two things: they have to travel as far as the Solomon Islands (look at a map) to catch fish anymore because the Tongan waters are fished out and they can not compete with the Taiwan boats who take everything in sight (including dolphins and turtles) who do not hire any locals and treat their own fishermen like prisoners on the boat with almost no pay and only one day off per month if they are lucky.
There are hundreds of Tongans out of work today because of this action and our industry is only a small part of the carnage. Talk with the local fishing companies who are all suffering because of greed by the officials. I guess it will all be back to normal soon, the Tongans will revert back to walking all over the reef and smashing whatever they can to eat while perhaps the government officials continue to put millions of dollars in off shore bank accounts that feeds nobody but their own greed.
How does this save the reefs in Tonga?
If you have been there you know, if you have never been there then your emotional, uniformed opinions should not be taken too seriously by those who care.
Walt

[RichardS]

And there you have it. Whether I buy Bubba's frag or Walt's wild farmed coral, I am not saving (or destroying) the reefs of the world. And I didn't even have to go to Tonga to figure that out .

[fijiblue]

Walt - just got the pm now...sorry. Again, I think it basically comes down to those that know the situation and those that think they know the situation. Until you see it firsthand and know the situation, it is best not to speak out of emotion at all.

[chrissreef]

It's tough to think long term and renewable/environmental when we're all trying to put food on the table.

I don't want to say more - I don't even know where to start in this thread! lol... but I do agree with Greenbean. I think Walt Smith should hire him =)

[BigJay]

Thanks for posting here Walt, I've learned something from it.

[savethereef]

Wow this was a good Read. Lots of information.

[Captain Quirk]

Tagging along.

One thing I'll say - not that it's a contribution but instead just an observation - is that people in general are selfish, and because of that, most often short sighted. Apathy has it's root in laziness, and there's apparently plenty of that to go around.

Humans have the ability to make conscious choices. Matters of integrity and ethics are fought hard by selfishness (greed), laziness and - IMO - a lack of higher intelligence.

Doing the right thing is always costly in one way or another. Often, that price is high, whether it's higher prices for our livestock/product, or saving a few bucks at Wal-Mart, it's all a choice.

It's how much we value integrity that is at issue, IMO. And unfortunately not something we will deal with here.

"Integrity - Doing the right thing when no one is looking."

I've enjoyed this discourse. I look forward to more...

[KarlBob]

Yes, this discussion could go on forever without solving the world's problems. On the other hand, discussions like this are slowly but surely giving hobbyists more information about the supply side of the hobby. When our knowledge of corals extends no farther than a tank at the LFS, we don't know what to think of the Sustainably Harvested/Aquacultured/Maricultured tags on the glass.

Marine aquarium supply sounds like a cut-throat business. From what we hear on boards like this, when the players aren't stabbing each other in the back, they're dealing with potentially-corrupt government officials in Third World countries. Surely, though, this isn't the only competitive international export business in the world. Have any of the others matured into well-mannered, law-abiding industries? If so, maybe there's something to be learned from them.