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Unread 03/16/2010, 10:19 PM   #1
kyley
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Help with Zoa Pox and Furan-2 Please?

Hi All,
I have 5 zoanthid colonies and a couple of small 3-polyp colonies. I have Zoa Pox on at least 3 of the large colonies. I've read the article on Zoa Pox and treatment with Furan-2. I have a few questions about how to do this specific to my case... Mainly item #1:

1. The article calls for 1 packet mixed with a cup of water. One of my zoa rocks is very large and I'd need more like 8-10 cups to cover it. Would one packet be okay - and perhaps leave it in the dip longer (like 30 minutes, an hour, or?)? Or maybe use two packets? The Furan-2 cost $16 at my LFS for 10 packets - so 6 treatements over 2 weeks would cost ~$100!

2. I'm also interested in using less b/c a) the infection isn't very severe yet and b) I don't want to stress out the zoas too much by doing this treatment. Thoughts?

3. Should I use Vitamin C while I do the dip? I'm nervous about adding it to the tank and creating an algae bloom or other issues... Thoughts on doing either of those? Where can find Sodium Ascorbate to use?

4. Will the Furan-2 kill micro brittle stars, bacteria on the rock, corraline algae, or anything like that?

5. Why should fresh saltwater be used? I don't like the idea of doing that and not having the parameters the same... Would it be okay to use the DT water instead?

Notes:
A. My zoanthids look otherwise healthy. They're staying open during the day and have been growing a lot the past several weeks (babies and everything).

B. About 3 weeks ago I did an iodine and FW dip with these b/c I had nudibranchs on them (I think I've successfully eradicated them). So perhaps that caused the stress that allowed the Zoa Pox to take over? My water quality is good (Alk, pH, NH3, NO2, NO3, etc. all good).

C. Here are some pictures of the infected zoas (taken at night - that's why they're closed):




Thanks in advance!
--Kyle


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Unread 03/16/2010, 10:30 PM   #2
650-IS350
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Kyle, I have done massive dips ( meaning ) i've had to dip all my frags and colonies as to prevent further break out to unaffected pieces.

I don't use RO/DI for my dips but use water from the main tank and treat them in 5 gallon buckets. ( using tank water, gives me an excuse to also do a water change ).

I've read peopel even use a packet for a cup or 2 of water. The way I look at it, some polyps if are far gone won't survive the dip. I've seen some small brittle stars and some ampipods survive some dips but don't know if they can handle 20-30mins dips. I used to use 2 packets for 2 1/2 gallons of tank water. and also have a spare 5 gallon set aside with tank water for rinsing before placing the dip pieces back to the main tank. NEVER treat furan in your main tank. It's not known to what impact the furan can do to your tanks system.


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Unread 03/16/2010, 10:38 PM   #3
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650-IS350, thank you *so* much for replying. I saw your responses in a lot of threads about zoa pox I was reading through tonight! I do plan to dip all my zoas. But no, I wouldn't do it in the main tank, and none of my polyps are far gone at all - each colony only has a few spots total, so I'm definitely catching the issue early. Can I please pester you a bit for a couple more questions?

1. Think 1 packet for 1 gallon and a 30-min dip would be okay then? Sorry, I think that's kind of what you're saying, but I'm still relatively new and want to do things carefully...

I had edited and added this question perhaps while you were replying - you replied so fast!
2. Should I use Vitamin C while I do the dip? I'm nervous about adding it to the tank and creating an algae bloom or other issues... Thoughts on doing either of those? Where can I find Sodium Ascorbate to use?

Thanks again!
--Kyle


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Unread 03/16/2010, 10:44 PM   #4
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1. Think 1 packet for 1 gallon and a 30-min dip would be okay then? Sorry, I think that's kind of what you're saying, but I'm still relatively new and want to do things carefully... I think you can get away with it, but it's really up to the polyps. I'd watch it carefully, check every 10mins to see if the polyps are reacting to it in a bad way. if so pull out immediately and rinse. Also once back in the tank make sure they're under good/strong undirect flow.

2. Should I use Vitamin C while I do the dip? I'm nervous about adding it to the tank and creating an algae bloom or other issues... Thoughts on doing either of those? Where can I find Sodium Ascorbate to use? I've tried that before but had horrible results and won't risk my tank again. folks on that thread had good results to no results but be sure to always check your tank parameters when messing with that stuff especially your Alk/pH. that's all I'll say about that as I don't want to say anything else negative.


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Unread 03/16/2010, 10:48 PM   #5
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for those that want to also know about furan2

Preventative Maintenance

Since there are so many coincidences when Zoanthid Pox strike, here is a list of some measures Aquarists should consider before the Zoanthid Pox season starts:
Check and clean all heaters in the Aquarium. Temperature change seems to play a role in the appearance of the Zoanthid Pox. Keeping your equipment working properly is key. Consider upgrading your heaters if they do not effectively warm the tank water.
Check and clean all Powerheads. Since water circulation is the life blood of your Aquarium, keeping them clean and properly functioning will make a huge difference.
Keep up with your preventative maintenance. Keep up with your preventative maintenance. Performing regular water changes, changing out old exhausted filter media (Polyfilter Pads, Carbon, phosban) will insure that you do not shock your system by letting it sit too long and then changing it. Also cleaning skimmers, canisters and any other mechanical filter will also insure stability and reduce shock from sudden cleaning and water clarity.
Finally, look with your eyes, not with your hands. It is sometimes difficult to do, but your animals will grow and prosper much faster the less you touch or move them. Sometimes it is necessary to do because a fish knocked the coral over, so take the time and mount the coral correctly the first time. Constantly touching a coral will stress it out, stunt it's growth and even cause it to recede and die.
A Cure

Thanh Nguyen has discovered a repeatable cure to Zoanthid Pox!

What is Furan-2?

Thanh states: I used to be a Discus hobbyist and fungus is a common illness for these fishes. Furan-2 is often used to cure fungus and it has worked for me for many times.

Furan-2 tablets are effective against a wide variety of gram positive and gram negative bacterial diseases for freshwater and saltwater fish. This medication will cause a harmless green color in the aquarium, which can be removed with activated carbon. This medication can be used in conjunction with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals anti-parasitic medications. This medication will not harm the biological filter in fresh or saltwater aquariums.

For treatment of: Dropsy, furunculosis, gill disease, fin and tail rot and black molly disease.

Instructions (as per the manufacture):
Use one capsule for every 10 gallons of aquarium water
Wait 24 hours and repeat dose
Wait another 24 hours and make a 25% water change
Repeat this treatment for a second time for a total of 4 doses of Furan-2
Make a final 25% water change and add fresh activated carbon
Repeat if necessary
Ingredients:
Each capsule of Furan-2 contains:
60mg Nitrofurazone
25mg Furazolidone
2mg Methylene Blue Trihydrate
Additional requirements for treatment:
1 cup of RO new saltwater (Update 2009.03.30: For the sake of clarity, we have edited this article to reflect that a cup of new saltwater, non-tank water but new saltwater of appropriate salinity, is needed. This reference change has been made several times in this article, but is only commented on here.)
1 capsule of Furan
1 extra cup of Aquarium Water (this is used to wash the Zoanthids after the treatment and before they are put back into your Aquarium; I do this because I don't want to risk Furan killing any of my fish or other corals).*
*Note: Through my experiment I found out that even if you don't wash your Zoanthid before putting it back into the main tank, it will not hurt any live stock or corals, (I have tested this on my own). But I'm washing it anyway just to be on the safe side. (ZoaID.com notes: t is always a good idea to target treat infected animals vs. a global tank treatment when possible!)

PH, Temp, and Salinity Level:
Make sure you match the temp, pH, and salinity level of your RO new saltwater to your current tank before the treatment.

Procedure:
place 1 capsule into the RO new saltwater cup and mix it good until the RO new saltwater water turns green. Put the zoa in the Furan mix and leave it for xxx minutes. I recommend at least 15 min but not more than 30 min.
After the treatment, wash the zoas in your tank water on the other cup you had put aside. Then put the zoas back in the tank where there is a stronger flow.
*Note: Your zoa will have a green dye to its body but it is fine. The green dye should fade away in a day or two.

Do 3 treatments in a row then let it rest for 4-7 days; depending on the condition of your Zoanthids. If the ZoaPox is still on the Zoanthids then continue with another three treatments. But make sure you let it rest 4-7 days after every 3 treatments.

Temp:
Keep in mind; during the treatment I slowly increase my temp from 78 to 81-82. Furan works best in higher heat. But I would not go over 82. In freshwater I bump it up to 84-86 for Furan treatment against fungus.

Water Changes:
I also increase my water changes from 5 gal per week to 10 gal every 3 days. (This is in a 75G tank.)

*Note: I did another test on the effectiveness of water change. With water changes my Zoanthids seem to recover quicker. On the other hand, Zoanthids that receive no water changes still recover, but it just takes longer.

Recommended Instructions for long-term treatment of ZoaPox:

1st WEEK
Day 1: 1st treatment started with 20 min dip
Day 2: 2nd treatment started with 20 min dip
Day 3: 3rd treatment started with 20 min dip
Let the colony rest for 1 week

*Note: If your Zoanthid has recovered and you still want to do another dip, please reduce the amount of dipping time when you do so. Also, you don't have to do another treatment if your Zoanthid is completely healed. I'm doing another treatment on mine just to make sure the ZoaPox is completely eradicated.

2nd WEEK
Day 1: 4th treatment started with 10 min dip
Day 2: 5th treatment started with 10 min dip
Day 3: 6th treatment started with 10 min dip


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Unread 03/17/2010, 09:38 PM   #6
kyley
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Thanks again Charles, I really appreciate the help! I'm about to give it a try now. Take care,
--Kyle


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Unread 03/17/2010, 09:42 PM   #7
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good luck keep us updated.


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Unread 03/18/2010, 09:06 PM   #8
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Hi All,
Just an update. I did the first dip last night with 1 packet and 12 cups of SW (3/4 gallon). It didn't seem to diminsh the white spots so I doubled the dose tonight (which is still small considering the directions say 1 packet / 1 cup). Not much to say yet about results, but the zoas are still opening (even a bit tonight right after the dip). I'll update again after the 3rd dip. Thanks,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/01/2010, 08:10 PM   #9
electrokate
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Stupid question... by suggesting to dose a "packet" do you mean the whole package or do you mean a single capsule (as you give the manufacturer's instructions which talk about capsules). I have not seen Furan 2's packaging, I have Furanase which is tablets.

Also a vet I talked to was very concerned about my use of Furanase, she says it is highly carcinogenic and to use gloves. She would prefer all "used" water dosed with furanase be boiled to break up the molecules as it will remain stable and dangerous through the sewage treatment process once dumped down the drain, eventually ending up in the ocean. Something to think about. I would not put that in my display tank.

I am going to start treating the zoa pox I got recently. Years of zoa growth gone in a day, sad. But the ugly ones, them I am not treating. (: Hope pox likes blue paly's.... probably not.
Kate


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:20 PM   #10
kyley
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My Furan-2 came in individual packets (I've also seen it in plastic pills like antibiotics sometimes come in).

I might as well update my experience... The Furan-2 didn't seem to do too much for my Zoas. I think it beat the zoa pox back a bit, but it's come back (my fault for not doing additional doses). I think the main reason is I didn't use a strong enough mix. Mine was pretty weak b/c a) I'd have to buy a lot of Furan-2 to treat large rocks with zoas and b) I didn't want to risk the zoas and other life on the rocks. Also, the zoas don't seem to be affected too badly by the zoa pox - yet... I'll probably be dipping them again soon though. Good luck treating yours! Take care,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:24 PM   #11
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they only come in packets now, capsuls were the OLD version. Btw- it takes a couple of treatments, rest between treatments and time to fully cure the polyps.


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:26 PM   #12
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Yep, and speaking of which - my LFS gave me some expired capsules. Think it's okay to use? I think they won't hurt anything, but probably not quite as effective...

Charles, thanks again for all your help - I hadn't posted back here in awhile b/c I was waiting to see how my zoas responded. They're doing fine, but have new spots popping up in a few places. Have you ever seen Zoas overcome this on their own? Take care,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:44 PM   #13
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some have said, but your tank has to be 100% perfect, and polyps healthy enough to fight it off, but i haven't heard a lot beat it this way ( natural ).

I wouldn't bother with expired capsuls as the effacacy and potency might not be that good anymore. it will also set you back a couple more weeks of treatment if the expired product doesn't work.


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:52 PM   #14
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Does the package say each packet treats 10 gallons?

Sorry it did not work for your tank. Anyone know how long zoapox remains in the system after the last polyp dies? Does anyone know the incubation period?

Thanks for all your help and support, and good luck everyone.
Kate


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Unread 04/01/2010, 09:55 PM   #15
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I always suggest to all that treatment and housing should be done in a separate treatment, and the polyps placed in a holding tank while the main tank is left afflow for weeks.


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Unread 04/02/2010, 09:50 AM   #16
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I don't dose drugs in the main tank either, am going to remove the colonies I can. Unfortunately some of the rocks are too big, and the zoas are on or around the bases of various corals. Hopefully that won't take a year... They have been growing for years and are everywhere. Oh well, started with frags I can start over with frags.
Thanks,
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Unread 04/04/2010, 11:06 PM   #17
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Hey Charles, I've done my first and second doses of Furan-2 (second set of doses). Just wondering if there's any issue with reusing the dip water for a dip the next day? As long as it's heated up and pH adjusted if necessary? The Furan-2 is expensive and having to do so much now in each dose can cost some $s... Any zoa pox in the dip water would have been killed off by the Furan-2 right? I know it's probably not the best method, but I also don't have enough Furan-2 to continue without doing it this way (more ordered tonight).

BTW, my Zoas still seem to be opening fine with me using close to one packet / cup. Thanks,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/05/2010, 09:21 AM   #18
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I dunno about re-using, never heard people re-using. Look at it as you re-using badagess on your would that you used a week ago or someting.

Me, I've made new batches everytime. It's cheaper to buy new packets that loose colonies/frags of zoanthids/palys.


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Unread 04/05/2010, 09:24 AM   #19
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Thanks Charles. Hah, funny way to look at it... I think I'll have to go ahead and do it this time, but I ordered extra Furan so I'll be good for next week. Right now I just have 1 packet left and need to treat again today So I'll add the fresh packet to the water from yesterday and hope it goes OK. Take care,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/05/2010, 10:09 AM   #20
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I tend to buy several boxes of these at a time just in case I need to dip for pox.


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Unread 04/05/2010, 10:18 AM   #21
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Yeah - that brings up a question - once you've gotten rid of Zoa Pox, do you find it still comes back occasionally? I'm worried this only beats it back a bit rather than eradicates it?

I haven't really read many notes about people getting rid of this - and then confirming 6 months later it's still gone, so just curious. Thanks,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/06/2010, 11:26 AM   #22
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I'd like to hear as well from those who have successfully treated their zoas. Bet they are done with the threads on it unfortunately. Some of us would like to know how long they think we ought to wait before assuming the disease is eradicated. Not that I will be buying new zoas, but I would like to sell some frags of my other corals when this is over. I now think I brought the disease in with liverock, so am assuming it's not safe to sell any coral from my systems.
Found a zoanthid eating starfish after one of the dips, wonder how many times that sucker has split... bet they spread the plague. I should have taken a photo before flushing it. It was a 1cm across asterina type blotched with lavender and baby blue. I have watched these engulf a polyp and after they leave it the polyp is much reduced, damaged and dies. They come out at night.
Something else to watch for while you have your zoas in the hospital tank.
Pulled 3 bright white nocturnal asterinas that ate Pocilloporidae types last week as well. I know that came in on liverock. Would not have thought it would survive cycling... It dropped to the bright white sand right away before I could grab it. Strips coral to the skeleton. Fun.
Always something new with this hobby, keeps it interesting (:
Kate



Last edited by electrokate; 04/06/2010 at 11:33 AM.
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Unread 04/06/2010, 11:45 AM   #23
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Hi Kate,
Do they really eat your polyps? I have asterina stars all over my tank (several different types), but I haven't noticed any damage to my zoas... Hopefully I'm just lucky and mine don't like zoas - b/c I like the asterinas! I did my third dip last night and all looks well - but I can't really tell that the white spots are going away yet...

I have one large colony that spans a hole in a rock so I can see from the other side of the rock. On this underside, there's a large patch of white - more than any of the other spots. I'm wondering if this is something else b/c this colony doesn't have a single speck of white (pox) anywhere else. Thoughts? Take care,
--Kyle


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Unread 04/06/2010, 12:13 PM   #24
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there are some predatory type asterinas while also there are some that are reefsafe. for me, I just remove all if I find any right away. I rather not want to take a chance having them wiping out my collection under my nose.


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Unread 04/06/2010, 12:18 PM   #25
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I don't think all asterinas are damaging. I have plenty of olive green ones that plainly eat only algae. The blue and lavender ones I have repeatedly observed over a period of years engulfing zoanthids at night and leaving them shrunken, yellowish beige, slimey and soon dead. I remove that type on sight.
There are probably numerous species of white asterina, some of which might be likely to eat coral. I had a linkia that ate coral, it was blotched baby blue with rust spots. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to identify the exact species of most starfish, and many have not yet been formally indentified. Of those given a genus/species name it's likely few have had their diet formally studied. So basically it's hard to say, and we have to observe what we have ourselves.
Since a lot of predators are nocturnal it's worth taking a flashlight to the tank at night now and then, and especially checking any colony having problems, never know what you will find. That is how I busted the stars that ate my zoas years ago. Also got a reef spider.
I have a friend who tosses any invert he can't ID, and I think that is a bit extreme. I have never seen the green asterinas do anything but make bite marks in the algae on the glass, if yours do the same you are possibly ok.
I am so reassuring eh? (: I hang out with people who being scientists have peer pressured me into not making assumptions without proof, which I can't do without the letters after my name and a whole lotta training and lab gear. So I tend to err on the side of caution.
What I would like to know is if anyone has ever submitted a zoa pox infected specimen to a coral pathologist? If not maybe it's worth the effort. Fish pathologist near me is quite reasonable, maybe I can find a coral guy to help us.
Kate


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