Zoo Dip

[650-IS350]

I've used muchos dip before and I actually use a lot more, and now use TMPCC. in a small bowl. the water is dark tea colored and leave my zoas for 15 mins or so. Never had a problem.

I've gotten numerous zoas from florida, next day ( morning delivery to Cali ) I've had 50-70% survival rate. EVEN when they all look good at first, with in days they shriveled and died.

Just because we do something new in the tank and something happens we always think its the immediate cause. We sometimes overlook other causes and sometimes don't see it. They're a lot of things that happens to our tanks in a daily basis that we don't notice that has been there for a long time but just notice it when the end result occurs, IE' Dead zoa, dead fish etc...

I myself have used mucho's dip but actually went further 8-10times the strenght and still no problem.

Just my .02. Mucho has done a lot for us here in RC. He will not put up a thread about doing something to our corals with out testing it himself and making sure it works prior to him displaying it to the public and urging them to use it. Other things may have occured to those polyps and the timing just happend to occur after you dipped them.

[JenDub]

Every Caribbean zoa I've seen to date has eventually shriveled up & died, I'm guessing there's something in their habitat that we are not fulfilling (feedings?) or something to do with collection/transportation/handling on the collector's end.

As far as the dip, if your coral is healthy then they can take it no problem, we dip all of our new imports these days just to be safe. If the coral is weak/struggling to stay alive then the added stress may push it over the edge, but if it was infested with nudis it's only a matter of time before it happens anyway.

FYI- nudis seem to prefer certain zoas/colonies so we will usually just throw away the rock if we see some on there =)

[NanoCube-boy]

oh

[goldmaniac]

Mucho,

Thanks for the response. I was not hitting you up as a target. I've read your posts in many, MANY zoa threads and you've always seemed very level-headed and helpful with your comments. Including this Zoo Dip. Not a personal attack at all.

I did read the entire thread, hearing one positive testimony after another, and that's one reason why I'm so surprised at this result. I followed your procedure exactly, and that's another reason I'm surprised.

I've been waiting for these zoas to open up for a week, and when I came home from work today, it looks like all of the outside of the zoas have sluffed off, all in one day. Picture an apple, and then picture all edible apple gone, leaving the core. That's what I came home to today. I am much more interested in finding the cause rather than simply pointing fingers.

Details on the dip:

5-gallon bucket is the bucket I've been using to move my RO/DI water all around. I'm sure it's clean and I even rinsed it out with RO a final time before using it for the dip. I put 4 gallons of RO/DI from my 35 gph Maxima Hi-S filter. I'm confident the water is good, tds passed the pass/fail tds inspection.
4 gallons of RO/DI water received 7 drops of Lugol's.

temp for the dip water was 78f, same as display.
pH was 8.2-8.3. It's possible that this hurt them - i used a pinch of baking soda to increase the pH and maybe that's detrimental for a reason I don't know. I'm open to comments.

I acclimated them to my display water in a separate 5-gallon bucket, also a clean bucket, for 10 - 20 minutes, then put them in the dip for 5 minutes, using a timer. Then I shook the frag clockwise/counterclockwise for almost a minute, then spalshed and splooshed a little, and then placed the little colony onto the sandbed. tank is 24" deep, 150w HQI light canopy.

I tested the display tonight, here's my paramaters:
temp: 77f
salt: 1.024
pH= 8.3
NO3 = 0
alk = 8 dKH <-- a little higg
Ca = about 420

while testing tonight, i saw a hermit crab eating the frag in question. I think they're toast.

Meanwhile, doing well in the display tank, nothing purchased since post-2007:
9-10 colonies of zoas including:
RPE's
bam bams
zombie eyes
those giant cinnamon ones
etc etc I'm not concerned with rarity/ LE's, etc. just listing some i know and 2 colonies of rics and a few softies. three fish, Kole tang, Rainford's Goby, Green mandarin. that's it.

The seller was pretty accommodating, he cut some zoas and let them fasten for almost a week, they did ok shipping. I paid for USPS Overnight, but took two days from Florida to Pennsylvania. I wasn't surprised. Zoas were in their own little bag of water for the trip, with a heat pack.

They looked ok until today, just hadn't opened yet. not even a little bit.

So any idea what could have been the problem? I never ordered from this guy before, don't know him. Cannot vouch nor defend the seller, I'd rather keep his name out of this until something more definite occurs.

Thanks,
G.

[MUCHO REEF]

Hello goldmaniac, I'm glad you responded and again, I sorry for the loss. I read your entire post and it seems that you did everything perfectly and your parameters look great. Maybe your temp is a hair low but that wouldn't cause any problems though. I am very confident that you just had a frag that went south on you. It has happened to every single person on this board who has been in this hobby for some time. It's the risk we take. I don't know if you have ever heard this, but I'm going to share it and I'm sure you are aware and I'm not talking down to you at all. The ecosystems we create to keep, cultivate and propagate are man made Biotopes that will never and can never duplicate what mother nature has created. In reefing, anything can happen as there are no absolutes. There is no doubt my friend that it was not the shippers fault, it wasn't your fault and I can assure you it wasn't the fault of the dip. It was simply a coincidence, that's all. I just wish you had posted your second post first or even PM'd me first. Why? I watched and counted 50 people who viewed the thread after your first post. That is potentially 50 people who might not use the dip now because they saw your post. I can only imaging now how many of them who will now stay away from this dip and maybe all the other dips out there and have disastrous results because of fear from this thread.

To be very honest, and I have never ever said this to anyone ever. I have always used 7 drops of Lugols since the day I posted the dip thread. The recommendations of the dip were conservative at best. I was always afraid that someone would attribute the dip to a loss of a dipped coral. As I said above, Kent Marine who sales the Lugols recommends the use of 40 drops per gallon of water, so the 6 to 7 drops can't possibly cause damage. I'll be honest, I was a little bothered when I read it as I would never ever post or share something which I know proof positively wasn't safe.

A lot of the people here including myself just love to read, listen, share and most of all help. It just seemed to me that it was an attack on me and the dip because you said this at the end.

"I feel that this Lugol's was the primary cause of EVERY one of these Eagle Eyes shriveling down to 1/8 inch long, 1 mm wide twigs.

I am so pi$$ed right now because of this, but I will only state that this was the only thing different to my acclimation process. No insults or rampages necessary.

BE CAREFUL - nothing is guaranteed in this hobby, but I never expected such disastrous results in my wildest imagination.

FYI to everyone."


I wish you the best with the next batch of frags you receive. Again, I think it was just a coincidense my friend.

All the best, Mucho

[mfinn]

I read goldmaniac post and while I'm not total surprised at what happened, I am a little disappointed with the method of goldmaniac picked to handle it.
I have had colonies just go south for no apparant reason.
Sometimes there just isn't a explaination.
If the dip had been done with half the colony and the other half, not dipped and the not dipped half survived, then maybe you could say that something had gone wrong with the dip.

goldmaniac, this is a place to help, not attack.
If you have a problem with someones method or suggestions, try a pm.

[MUCHO REEF]

All is well.

I just think we all have to continue working together to make this the best Zoanthid forum on the net. Group hug.

[impur]

I've used the dip i don't know how many times. I use it on new zoas, zoas that might look like they are doing poorly, freshly fragged zoas, and anytime i'm moving zoas from one tank to another. I've used Kent Tech-D, Lugol's iodine, and now i use TMPCC almost exclusively. I've never once attributed any losses to the dip. There is always another reason.

I'm currently battling monti eating nudis. One of the encrusting montis has some zoas growing on the rock, about a dozen polyps. I was more concerned with the monti than the zoas, so i've been dipping in TMPCC at 5X strength for 20+ minutes at a time. Sunday will be the 6th dip in 6 weeks. The zoas look better than the montis after this dip and show no signs of stress.

Also I agree with JenDub on carribean zoas. I've given up on them all together. They simply don't do well in our tanks.

Just wanted to add my experiences with this dip.

Also eagle eyes are one of the more common morphs around. I'm sure you will be able to pick up a frag for cheap or trade no problem. But i am sorry to hear about your loss, its always tough when you lose an awesome looking coral like eagle eyes.

[goldmaniac]

Now I'm getting attacked.
First of all : Impur – thanks for the words. They’re appreciated. This morning things don’t feel like such a big deal. Perspective always kicks in eventually.

Now, I came back and spent considerable time last night documenting details on what I did and the result, for clarification purposes and to contribute my experience in more detail. And Mucho was good enough to follow up, as well.
I re-read my initial statement from yesterday, and although I typed it out at time of discovering disappointment, I don’t think I was grossly out of line. Sure, I was hot that I found the results that I did, but Mucho clearly asked for feedback to be posted directly onto this thread, he mentioned that he’d gotten PMs about how this Lugol’s dip worked so well and he wanted testimony. I was providing testimony and my experience. If all that was wanted was positive testimony, then it’s an inaccurate compilation of user’s experiences. I don’t think Mucho wanted that, or at least I wouldn’t think so. I do not know him but I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise. Mucho appears to be very utilitarian.
I kept it brief and stated the facts and the only conclusion I posted was stated as an opinion. Yes, I will agree that I will never know 100% what the cause of the die-off was, but if it was just chance/dumb luck that this all happened the first time running the dip, then I really, REALLY had back luck with the chances. With 9 original frags that I’ve ever received, over the past 5 months, and this being the only one that I dipped, the chance that this happening (dip plus doomed zoa) is 1.2%

1 out of 9 frags failure rate = 11%
1 out of 9 frags dipped = 11% dipped.
11% of 11% is 1.2%
1.2% is the chance that the only zoa I’ve ever dipped is the only zoa that ever died on arrival.
** if my math is wrong, please correct me. But wow , that’s REALLY bad luck, considering Mucho is confident it’s not this dip.**

So [everybody] don’t come after me for any severe accusations. I did not criticize the dip or the procedure, I did not insult Mucho, I did not rant off and say “This SUCKS� or “F.U.� or “DO NOT USE THIS DIP� and I stated my conclusion as an opinion. I even added a caveat in there, that S!ht happens.
Mucho, I know we take chances with this hobby. I stated it in my first post yesterday. And regarding all of the 50 people who might have read my post, I had the responsibility to come back last night and clarify with details, results of my procedure and immediate testing, and you confirmed that I did everything right. Sure, maybe it was chance that something died the first time I used this dip. I will completely acknowledge that 100%. But I also had the responsibility to provide my experience and allow others to come to their own conclusions. I appreciate your follow-up, but my experience is not a personal attack on you and you don’t need to take it as such. “it just seemed it was an attack on me because of this at the end,� as you stated, is not correct. I see your posts on this and other threads and pay close attention to what you post, believe it or not. You know much more about zoas/palys than me, as I’ve been learning this corner of reefing since only Sept 07.
I hope you understand my position, I know negative incidents are not the way to promote this Lugol’s solution, but this thread has never indicated that you have any agenda to promote this. If I am the lone poster saying that the zoas that I dipped correctly, trying it for the first time, died, then that’s just what happened. I am not stating a correlation. At most, I [had] stated an opinion. I was actually relieved when I read your first response to my post saying that you weren’t taking it personally. I hope you now don’t, after reading my extensive ramblings explaining my position.
I wish you good luck and good experience.
___________________________________
Now,

Originally posted by mfinn
I read goldmaniac post and while I'm not total surprised at what happened, I am a little disappointed with the method of goldmaniac picked to handle it.
I have had colonies just go south for no apparant reason.
Sometimes there just isn't a explaination.
If the dip had been done with half the colony and the other half, not dipped and the not dipped half survived, then maybe you could say that something had gone wrong with the dip.

goldmaniac, this is a place to help, not attack.
If you have a problem with someones method or suggestions, try a pm.

mFinn, You’re out of line, and not helping. I was not attacking. I was reporting results. Granted, I should have waited a day to cool down to report, I’ll admit that. But I will say again that I was not as out of line as your response warrants. I was reporting my experience. See above.

G.

[mfinn]

Originally posted by goldmaniac


I feel that this Lugol's was the primary cause of EVERY one of these Eagle Eyes shrivling down to 1/8 inch long, 1 mm wide twigs.


BE CAREFUL - nothing is guaranteed in this hobby, but I never expected such disasterous results in my wildest imagination.

FYI to everyone.

Looks pretty negative to me.

But I still say if you have some negative to say try and take care of it in private.
That was my point.

I also said that sometimes you lose stuff and there just isn't a explaination.

[goldmaniac]

You can have last word.

[MUCHO REEF]

Please allow me to have the last word on this, please. This forum has come a long way in the last 5 months or so. We have never had this much daily activity in a very long time and we're not going to lose that over one topic. We are all here for the same reasons, right? We're all family in a our own small way, a zoanthid family, and I am not going to allow one topic to break up a family. All parties have spoken , so I hope we can all agree to end this one right now and go back to the dip for those who wish to use it. Lets allow cooler heads to prevail and use PM's to further any discussions on the above matter privately.

The bottom line is this, there could have been other reasons the frag failed, but I can assure you it wasn't because of the dip. Goldmaniac stated her concerns and reasons for feeling the way she did and she and I will speak privately. I've assured her it was a fluke/coincidence that this frag perished. Many have used the dip for over 3 years now and it works as the many testimonials will reflect, safely and effectively. Some disagree with the original post because they are defending the dip and didn't agree as I didn't with a portion of it. We replied and replied again with our own opinions. I say we now agree to let it slide and continue any and all discussions privately without attacking anyone. There's no need to even reply, lets just move on.


.......and now, back to our regularly scheduled program, "The Zoa Dip"

[NanoCube-boy]

I have never dip any of my corals before, so I don't know. Bad to hear you lost man, you did your best. I don't think you did anything wrong because you did exactly what you was suppose to do. Good luck on your next stock if you decide to get more.

[MUCHO REEF]

I just did a dip on one colony I picked up, I found 2 spiders and 3 nudis. It was a none pourous rock that I visually inspected and didn't see a thing but decided to dip as I always do. Those 5 critters alone could have reeked havoc in my tank.

[OAD]

I picked up a frag of Armor of God and Fire & Ice. The owner was a fellow reefer who advised me to do the dip despite him never having a known infestation. I did the dip and let the polyps rest in the dark for a bit. The polyps on the Armor of God are out right now but the Fire & Ice not yet. I would consider the dip a success.

[NanoCube-boy]

OAD, how long did you dip for?

[cinnapolyp]

I just did a dip about 30 minutes ago using Mucho's instructions and the colony looks okay and is already opening. I just hope it got rid off the black stuff that they had growing on them, not a sponge, but some black film that was slowly killing them.

[macawmagic]

random question that I should probably know the answer to, but...

how do you adjust the ph of the rodi in the bucket?

[OAD]

Originally posted by macawmagic
random question that I should probably know the answer to, but...

how do you adjust the ph of the rodi in the bucket?

I used B-Ionic, I think it is .75ml for the 3 gal.

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy
OAD, how long did you dip for?

5 minutes at the bottom and 1 minute shaking.

[macawmagic]

so dump .75 mL of both part A and B in the bucket and mix it up?

[OAD]

Negative, use Part 1. I think the directions are 1ml per 4 Gal so .75ml for 3 I believe.

[NanoCube-boy]

cool

[goldmaniac]

any issues with just using baking soda to increase pH? it alters pH, but does anyone know if it'll do anything detrimental?

[impur]

Originally posted by goldmaniac
any issues with just using baking soda to increase pH? it alters pH, but does anyone know if it'll do anything detrimental?

Baking soda will not increase pH. It will increase alk and decrease pH for a short time. This is due to excess CO2 in the baking soda. If you would prefer to raise alk and increase pH you need washing soda, or you can bake baking soda in the oven to drive off the CO2.

BTW i use baking soda from time to time to increase alk. Cheap and works great.

[goldmaniac]

hmm. i wonder how I increased pH on RODI from 7.0 to 8.2 in a dip bucket using baking soda, then. Maybe it was the baked baking soda. It's been a while.