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01/13/2018, 07:14 PM | #301 | |
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As it stands now, the directions for dosing seem flawed after the second week. The flaw is that the larger the system you have, the less carbon you are advised to dose per gallon. This might explain some of the variability in the carbon dosing sucess rate. The bigger the system you have, the greater the probability you underdosed, though I am still not clear what the science is that supports the dosing rate. I believe the notion of carbon dosing came from commericial aquaculture. One approach called the Belize method selects a carbohydrate addition rate that corresponds to the amount of protein in the feed, i.e., the nitrogen input. The logic of the approach is to eliminate ammonia via assimilation to biomass rather than oxidation to nitrate. Back to reading... |
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01/14/2018, 11:23 AM | #302 | |
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No scientific or chemistry background, no formal methodology followed here, but from my own experience and observation, it seems to me that vodka, NOPOX and vinegar carbon dosing work. It is with my 25 gallon (20 dp + 5 sump) that I'm having this challenge of getting the NO3 below 5ppm after switching from "DIY" NOPOX (vodka + vinegar + RO mix). PO4 is OK at 0.02ppm. Perhaps Randy can give some feedback about it? Would be nice getting to the bottom of this "inconsistency" in the vinegar dosing table when comparing small vs. large volumes. |
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01/14/2018, 02:45 PM | #303 |
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01/14/2018, 02:54 PM | #304 |
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Yes... In both of my tanks (10 gallon and 25 gallon) I got to almost 0ppm on both NO3 and PO4, measured with good kits (Red Sea Pro and Hanna colorimeter respectively) with DIY NOPOX. Then I switched to Vinegar dosing because I wanted to automate it with dosing pump, obviously making the adjustment, taking into account that the vodka part of my DIY NOPOX is 7-8 times stronger than vinegar.
Since then, the 10 gallon tank stayed stable with very low NO3 and PO4 (undetectable NO3 and 0.02 or close to that PO4), but the 25 gallon has NO3 raised to 5-6ppm and PO4 at 0.02 - 0.03ppm (sometimes may get to 0.05ppm), which seems reasonable. The 10 gallon tank has some algae green and brown algae growing on the glass and back. So, definitely the values are higher than tests show. But it is doing great. The 25 gallon tank has less green algae than the 10 gallon, but has a lot of cyano growing on the sand bed. It has a very active urchin, so it may be helping with the green algae. That's a summary of the situation. |
01/14/2018, 03:01 PM | #305 | |
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01/14/2018, 03:09 PM | #306 | |
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If nitrate consumption is not goosed, then carbon dosing might be changing how ammonia is consumed and the system just slowly consumes nitrate. |
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01/14/2018, 05:31 PM | #307 | |
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01/14/2018, 06:09 PM | #308 | |
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01/14/2018, 07:10 PM | #309 | |
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I believe that we do not know the connection between the ppm of acetate and ppm of nitrate in our systems or for that matter whether there is a connection. And that is why most aquarists start with a low ppm of acetate and slowly increase it to see what happens. If carbon dosing works like it does in shrimp farms, the extra carbon is used to shunt ammonia into bacterial biomass away from oxidation to nitrate. For aquariums, the existing nitrate might be consumed through denitrification, by algae or coral and the carbon dosing is not involved at all, though I have read suggestions that the dosed carbon feeds denitrifying bacteria too. I started dosing to achieve a daily 1 ppm level of acetate. I will monitor things (pore water NH3 & PO4, tank alkalinity use rate, chlorine demand-a measure of organics, skimmate production, cyanobacteria, algae and the fish) for a couple weeks to see what is changing before deciding to increase dose, maintain it at 1ppm or abort the experiment. |
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01/14/2018, 07:18 PM | #310 |
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The results should be interesting.
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01/14/2018, 07:49 PM | #311 |
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I wonder how the vinegar table in question compares against the NOPOX instructions, adapted to only vinegar. I don’t have NOPOX instructions on hand. Also, the method (ramp up, etc. ) recommended by Res Sea for small vs. large volume tanks.
The formula that I used for DIY NOPOX was: Vodka 80 proof (Absolut): 37.5 ml Vinegar (5% acetic acid): 50 ml RO water: 12.5 ml Total: 100 ml |
01/14/2018, 08:26 PM | #312 | |
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01/14/2018, 09:11 PM | #313 | |
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01/15/2018, 04:39 PM | #314 |
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It seems that raising the daily dose is starting to show results. Today, NO3 is down at 1.5 ppm and PO4 is 0ppm. I'm happy to see the NO3 down, but a little worried about PO4 at zero.
It is probably premature to say, but it seems from observation that the coral have been happier for the last few days. I will keep running the vinegar at 27ml (current dose) for a few more days and keep monitoring. Perhaps I should step back to 24ml if NO3 falls below 1.5ppm and PO4 remains at zero OR I see any adverse effect on coral. Or maybe this is the ideal dose and I should just start to dose Red Sea Reef Energy (aminos) and/or increase the Reef Roids (which I reduced recently to 2 x week). Any thoughts? p.s. Cyano still growing on sand bed, but perhaps a little less. Last edited by rsucre; 01/15/2018 at 04:40 PM. Reason: p.s. about cyano. |
01/15/2018, 05:35 PM | #315 |
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I'd just keep watching the corals. Adding a bit more food might be fine at some point, but I'd see how the current dose shapes up over a longer period of time, personally. I've never needed to dose carbon, though.
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01/15/2018, 05:42 PM | #316 |
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01/15/2018, 05:51 PM | #317 |
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Removing a crushed coral substrate ended all my tanks' dissolved nutrient problems.
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01/15/2018, 05:55 PM | #318 |
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01/15/2018, 05:59 PM | #319 | |
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I haven’t made it past 2009 in my reseaerch. Up to that time, the advice was to stop increasing or even halve the dose when you met your nitrate/phosphate goal. If you have time on your hand, test the pore water of the system with 0 ppm phosphate. You might find some lurking in the sand. I am surveying the pore water in my aquarium at several locations during carbon dosing. Ammonia and phosphate are usually there, but will dosing decrease it. |
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01/15/2018, 06:02 PM | #320 | |
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What is pore water? Sorry, English is not my native language. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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01/15/2018, 06:12 PM | #321 | |
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01/15/2018, 06:35 PM | #322 |
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01/15/2018, 08:09 PM | #323 |
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01/15/2018, 08:47 PM | #324 | |
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01/16/2018, 04:16 PM | #325 | |
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If you are using the Hanna checker, the cloudiness will be taken into account when you use the sample as a blank in the “C1” step. You may find that the Hanna ULR reading exceeds 200. If you are interested in a number, the sample will have to be diluted with RO/DI water before testing it again. I can help with that if you wish. |
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