Biodiversity: A conversation

[Misled]

Originally Posted by Misled

I feed my sump.

So let me splain that a little. I have 3 separate chambers in my sump. In my new system, I'll have 5, but I'll get into that when the time comes. First a skimmer section, then a cheato section, then a return section. The first and last sections are pretty much self explainable, but the middle is a world of it's own. It has 4 separate layers. The bottom is a "empty" (covered with worms and grunge now), area. It never sees light now. You can't see in it because there's thick layer of worm tubes and hardened grunge. Above that is a 6 inch sandbed, above that a layer of rubble and above that cheato. My cheato doesn't tumble. It's a mass of epic proportions. It's packed so tightly, if I take a couple large sandwich bags out to give someone, it will still fill it's space. There's as much life in this section as there is in the display. It's just different. When the light comes on, if you're looking, the top is covered with worms, pods and stars. It can get nauseating to look at, but I find it very cool. I toss a little food on the top of the cheato a couple times a week. It's gone within a minute.

[ReefkeeperZ]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Do not overlook feeding. All of that diversity needs nutrition. The norm is for people to massively underfeed their tanks for fear of nuisance algaes or lack of understanding that more than just fish need food.

Good point! I (once my tank is established) feed between 5-7 times a day various food types and what not, and it does take a while to build my tank up to that.

[ReefkeeperZ]

right now my tank is 2 yeaqrs old and pretty much only been coasting, I have been feeding a mix of dry foods (5 types mixed) once or twice a day, as my coral inhabitants increase I have a lot of encrusting corals that will benifit greatly from target feeding I will slowly start introducing more frozen and home made foods. Yes I make my own foods. once my reef is solidly established I will be primarily feeding my own home made foods, I think I have way better fish and coral health than with any bought foods.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

Thats an awesome sump design, twin. I had a sump similar a while back only it had 4 layers of crate with pipe spacers in between, it was amazing how much grew in there sponges and micro feathers dominating whole areas of the crate.

Thanx. What sump configuration do you use now?

[ReefkeeperZ]

my sump has a double tray that can hold mechanical filtration for when I am working on a tank other wise it just creates a splash through 2 trays for oxygenation, under that is about 10lbs of rubble rock and frag plugs for later use, it open flows past 2 mini DBS,through a wad of cheato, past a mud container then my protien skimmer is on the far right after the return line pick up, no baffles.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

my sump has a double tray that can hold mechanical filtration for when I am working on a tank other wise it just creates a splash through 2 trays for oxygenation, under that is about 10lbs of rubble rock and frag plugs for later use, it open flows past 2 mini DBS,through a wad of cheato, past a mud container then my protien skimmer is on the far right after the return line pick up, no baffles.

After all of that biofilter, does the skimmer pull anything out?

Also, do you consider your biofilter as a source of live food. If so, does all of that water returning to display go thru foam fractionator?

Do you think that protein skimmer is competing with coral for live food and nutrients?

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

After all of that biofilter, does the skimmer pull anything out?

Also, do you consider your biofilter as a source of live food. If so, does all of that water returning to display go thru foam fractionator?

Do you think that protein skimmer is competing with coral for live food and nutrients?

Ecological purification in the captive reef
– natural approaches to water quality management
Ashley Sharp Zoological Society of London

Foam fractionation, mechanical and chemical filtration

The physical removal of particulate material from
the water column will impact upon the viability
of organisms with planktonic life histories. This
will occur both directly through damage and
removal of the organisms themselves and
through removal of their food source. Inevitably
this will truncate foodwebs relying on the supply
of such material unless supplementary food is
supplied (Adey and Loveland, 1998). This will
alter the mass balance of nutrients entering
the system leading to a system leaning heavily
towards heterotrophy

[Subsea]

If I read that correctly, by removing micro fauna and fana from water column I lean system toward heterotrophs which means carbon eating life forms which would include bacteria.

I think that Ken Felderman research articles at Advance Aquaria are < 2 yrs old. He published several papers on carbon dosing in reef tanks.

Protein skimming at best removed 35% of DOC
GAC removed 65% of GAC
Mature biofilter in a reef removed 75of DOC.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

If I read that correctly, by removing micro fauna and fana from water column I lean system toward heterotrophs which means carbon eating life forms which would include bacteria.

I think that Ken Felderman research articles at Advance Aquaria are < 2 yrs old. He published several papers on carbon dosing in reef tanks.

Protein skimming at best removed 35% of DOC
GAC removed 65% of GAC
Mature biofilter in a reef removed 75of DOC.

I'm not sure what your getting at with Feldman?

The piece I posted is suggesting that skimming, as well as mechanical filtration, remove fauna - pods etc, & their food.
I think using a skimmer (which I don't) while at the same time attempting to establish a healthy population of micro fauna, is the wrong way to go about it.

Feldman's data showed skimmers remove at best 35% of Total organic compounds & almost no dissolved organic compounds (but that is debateable) & activated carbon removes 60 to 85% of Total organic compounds (I would suggest that would be mostly dissolved organics, &, the overall figure would be greater if he had tested an activated carbon of the quality of ROX 0.8, but that's another talking point.

[Subsea]

I think we said the same thing. I merely referred to Feldman research because it was more current and I had read several other papers by him at Advanced Aquaria.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Subsea

. I merely referred to Feldman research because it was more current and I had read several other papers by him at Advanced Aquaria.

Not really. Feldman's articles on skimming, skimate analysis & bacteria counts were 2009-11. Sharp's was 2008.

And for sure we were saying the same thing.

[Punchanello]

A few thoughts from a total novice:

There's a perception that a sterile tank is a sexy tank. Noobs like me have indeed been scared off live rock by acres of forum threads full of horror stories. Instagram, Pinterest and other image sharing media have tonnes of images of sterile, minimalist, manicured (and I dare say photo-shopped) DTs. This aesthetic is pretty seductive.

The fear of hitchhiking pests is one reason people want to keep their tanks sterile but many no longer have access to quality live-rock so even if they wanted to introduce biodiversity that way they can't. Certainly that's the case where I am.

Personally I love the idea of biodiversity being at the heart of a healthy reef. I love the idea of growing mangroves along with sponges, tunicates and bugs. I still need to resist the urge to evacuate anything grungy hiding in the corners of my sump so there's a balance to be reached I suppose. Controlled, cordoned spaces for biodiversity (like a tub of deep sand bed in the sump) appeals to a neat freak like me.

I guess my only real reservation is theoretical. How can we have truly bio-diverse, functional ecosystems if not even the corals in our tanks are from the same biomes let alone oceans and the goal for our DTs is precisely NOT to have biodiversity (algae anyone?). How do we know that the links in the biological chain are even there for this to be effective and we aren't potential unleashing problems (I'm thinking of Australia's long history of introduced species that have led to disastrous consequences).

[Subsea]

Interesting philosophically.

Every person that maintains a captive reef tank has ethical responsibilities to the creatures in his care. Before putting inhabitants existence under reef keepers stewardship, some research in advance should always be done. Avoid the sensationalism of keeping difficult species of coral until you have mastered whatever methods you started with. Keep inhabitants from the same biotheme. If you keep difficult species then take the time to master and apply the husbandry required.

Lastly, getting good information on hobby forums is often a crap shoot. There are many sussessful ways to run a reef tank. Erick Boreneman said it this way, “If someone tells you their way is the only way to operate a reef tank, run from them”.

[OrionN]

I am one of the luckier reefers. We no longer have access to "good live rock" but I do live by Corpus Christi Bay. Certainly this is not a tropical sea, but many of the Fauna here will do well in reef tank. I was able to leave my LR in the bay for months and put it directly to my Reef tank.
Many reefers think that this is a huge way to introduce pathogen or unwanted pest into my tank. I do not think so, or have any problem with this method. I did have a numbers of small crabs that can be pest, but I easy trapped and released them back into the wild (when I first set up the tank) before introduce my animals.
I certainly know enough to introduce contaminate life back into the CC Bay ecosystem, so I take care not to introduce anything alive back to the bay system once I "contaminated" my tank with Fauna from the Pacific.
I am one of the reefers who think more diversity means healthier and more stable captive reef system.

Happy reefing everybody.

[Subsea]

Yes to biodiversity.

Minh,
When you say, “We no longer have access to good live rock”, do you not consider aquaculture rock from GOM “good live rock”.

http://www.gulfliverock.com/premium-...tive-rock.html

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Punchanello

A few thoughts from a total novice:

There's a perception that a sterile tank is a sexy tank. Noobs like me have indeed been scared off live rock by acres of forum threads full of horror stories. Instagram, Pinterest and other image sharing media have tonnes of images of sterile, minimalist, manicured (and I dare say photo-shopped) DTs. This aesthetic is pretty seductive.

The fear of hitchhiking pests is one reason people want to keep their tanks sterile but many no longer have access to quality live-rock so even if they wanted to introduce biodiversity that way they can't. Certainly that's the case where I am.

Personally I love the idea of biodiversity being at the heart of a healthy reef. I love the idea of growing mangroves along with sponges, tunicates and bugs. I still need to resist the urge to evacuate anything grungy hiding in the corners of my sump so there's a balance to be reached I suppose. Controlled, cordoned spaces for biodiversity (like a tub of deep sand bed in the sump) appeals to a neat freak like me.



I guess my only real reservation is theoretical. How can we have truly bio-diverse, functional ecosystems if not even the corals in our tanks are from the same biomes let alone oceans and the goal for our DTs is precisely NOT to have biodiversity (algae anyone?). How do we know that the links in the biological chain are even there for this to be effective and we aren't potential unleashing problems (I'm thinking of Australia's long history of introduced species that have led to disastrous consequences).

Biodiversity and neat freaks do not get along. Sterile does not grow nutritious food. The idea that there is no algae in a sterile tank could not be further from the truth. Coral biomass is imbedded with cynobacteria which perform nitrogen fixation.

Yes to a remote display refugium or a remote dsb hidden under a cabinet.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Yes to biodiversity.

Minh,
When you say, “We no longer have access to good live rock”, do you not consider aquaculture rock from GOM “good live rock”.

http://www.gulfliverock.com/premium-...tive-rock.html

Thank you for posting this link. I was just getting ready to ask where people are getting amphipods and other small critters from for their tanks. My 625g was started with dry rock so I'm seriously lacking some biodiversity in my DT

[ReefkeeperZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

After all of that biofilter, does the skimmer pull anything out?

Also, do you consider your biofilter as a source of live food. If so, does all of that water returning to display go thru foam fractionator?

Do you think that protein skimmer is competing with coral for live food and nutrients?

1 Yes my skimmer still skims quite a bit though the amount of accumulation tends to reduce at times, with my feeding regiment i'm not overly worried about food loss until my tank ages a bit more and has higher diversity to compensate I run a really dry skim.

2 no not nearly all the water returning to the display goes through the fractionator, the biofilter and fuge ares are before the return pick up, and the skimmer is after. so maybe 25% of my water gets skimmed before returning to the display

3 some yes, anything plankton has the potential to be skimmed out, as well as calcium.

[Subsea]

On point three, you mentioned calcium leaving system thru skimmate. Can you explain that? For certain, bacteria is a major component of skimmate.

[OrionN]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Yes to biodiversity.

Minh,
When you say, “We no longer have access to good live rock”, do you not consider aquaculture rock from GOM “good live rock”.

http://www.gulfliverock.com/premium-...tive-rock.html

These LR are very good, in term of the encrusting live on them. They are great over all, much better than the dead dry rock that most people sell.

The rock itself, terrestrial fossilized rock, is not as good a coral skeleton we got from the Pacific 20 years ago.
I am lucky, I use real coral skeleton and put these rock in the bay. I think I will also order some rock from Gulf Live Rock to supplement these.

[ReefkeeperZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

On point three, you mentioned calcium leaving system thru skimmate. Can you explain that? For certain, bacteria is a major component of skimmate.

skimmate analysis testing.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

[Subsea]

Thank you on skimmate article. Actually, I perused that a few months ago. Just recently, I read an older article by Eric Boreneman. Ken Felderman, for me, was much easier to read than Boreneman.

[ReefkeeperZ]

no worries, I haven't seen that article since it was published I was kind of surprised I could still find it by googling it.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

no worries, I haven't seen that article since it was published I was kind of surprised I could still find it by googling it.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/sitemap

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/author/authorindex.php

[ReefkeeperZ]

well that's handy I bookmarked that