The T5 Q&a Thread - split

[kelp47]

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

Okay I'm a bit more caught up to speed now.
Green corals love the GE6500 bulbs... find a tank you would be happy copying.

Thanks Mike. You've been very helpful!

[TropTrea]

Originally Posted by JonnyD91

Cool. I was going to replace my ATI with and LED fixture, but i saw a bunch of threads where people swapped the ATI with led's and personally i think the colors don't even compare. I cant see them growing any better either. So to save power I will just upgrade my pumps and stuff. All my pumps are DC aside from my return. So i have a pretty low wattage system now as is.

The last two years I have been experementing with LED's on two of my Frag tanks. I also have another Frag tank onder T-5's and have been watching color and growth. My intentions were once I got a thourough understanding of LED's to swap my 120 Gallon to all LED's. But I seriously doubt that will happen unless some new LED's come on the market.

Right now I'm convinced that the ideal tank would have a combination of the best of both worlds. The problem with LED's alone is that the Blue LED's have a very narrow spectrum. If you get a 460 nm LED it is not producing any measurable light below 455 or above 465, the 454 LED do not produce measurable light below 449 or above 459. This leaves the entire spectrum below 449 lacking. Sure there are near UV LED's out there but some are producing light below 380 nm and it is hard to find anything producing anything between 420nm and 449 nm. With T-5's the ATI Blue plus covers a range from 420 to 500 nm, and the ATI True Atinic covers the range from 410 nm to 450 nm.

I will say that a comparison of my 3 frag tanks shows me that growth is best in one of my LED tanks, Color is best in the other LED tank but the T-5's tank is only slightly behid the the best of both worlds. The big advantage though is the T-5 tank is using 156 Watts while the LED tanks are using less than 72 Watts of power each.

My 4 bulb combination is 2 Blue plus, 1 Purple plus, and 1 Aqua blue special.

[TropTrea]

A little side note on how much blue comes from which of the most talked about bubs here.

GE 6,500K is a daylight balanced full spectrum bulb. It is one of the more accurate rated of the bulbs. Under normal conditions it does produce a noticabble blue tint however when compared to the higher K rated bulbs it does look like a yellow or ivory tint in the aquarium when by itself.

The ATI Aqua Blue Special is a full spectrum bulb with a big boast in the blue end of the spectrum. Basicly most people consider it as 50% Blue and 50% full spectrum. When compared to a GE 6,500K it has more than twice as much blue, less and very little yellow.

The Coral plus bulb is claimed by ATI to be 50% Blue Plus, 40 % aqua blue Special, and 10% purple plus. If this is true then you would take that 40 % aqua blue special and substitute it for 20% Blue and 20 % full spectrum. The results would be 70% Blue plus, and 20% full spectrum and 10% purple plus. When put next to either of the two above bulbs it is definatly more blue so I tend to agree with the manufacturers comment. While it is not as white as the Aquablue special I do like the fact that it has a slightly stronger red peak than the Aqua blue special.

However where I disagree is that ATI rates the Aqua Blue Special at 15,000K and it also rates the Coral Plus at 15,000K, in stand alone situations.

[Michigan Mike]

Good observation Dennis.
The ge6500 does have a lot of blue compared to our normal household lighting, you would notice the blue in it more if you placed one in your bathroom or kitchen.lol
The Ge6500 & blue plus together is a well balanced combo, basically an aquablue special look, right? But ATI does say its 15k because technically by the graphs , it is . But us as hobbyists portray it differently and count it closer to a 10k bulb, while giving the coral plus the 15k status.

[TropTrea]

Yes Mike the K rating on lighting even when it is doone 100% accuratlly can result in two completly different color mixes of bulbs. Resulting in completly different color effects. If people are familuar with the chromatic color chart that is two dimensional it is much easier to understand this. The X axis is the ratio of Blue to Red while the Y axis is the amount of green light. This creates a simple "hot" spot in the chart where lighting is basicly "white" and all the K rating bulbs are considered equal. But as you move away from this white point the difference between the light becomes more evident at the color different color temperatures.

this chart makes a nice comparison for everyday household lighting when compared with a lux level but is less dependent for the aquarium.

[Michigan Mike]

I do like GSMguy's ideas about this thread moving away from the same combo questions over & over to actual T5 discussion.

When is blue too blue? How much of the spectrum is covered with T5 bulbs? - def more than LEDs as T5 have a much broader range. Proof of coral color morph & if its permanent.

How much more PAR ATI fixtures have vs Aquaticlife,TEK, & how much cooling helps PAR & bulb longevity & the difference between reflectors, ballasts,etc...

The minute differences between brands of bulbs that are similar like GMANN's MIDDAY vs GE6500 or GMANN's actinic plus vs ATI blue plus etc...what else...stuff like this is what I would prefer to discuss.

[JonnyD91]

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

I do like GSMguy's ideas about this thread moving away from the same combo questions over & over to actual T5 discussion.

When is blue too blue? How much of the spectrum is covered with T5 bulbs? - def more than LEDs as T5 have a much broader range. Proof of coral color morph & if its permanent.

How much more PAR ATI fixtures have vs Aquaticlife,TEK, & how much cooling helps PAR & bulb longevity & the difference between reflectors, ballasts,etc...

The minute differences between brands of bulbs that are similar like GMANN's MIDDAY vs GE6500 or GMANN's actinic plus vs ATI blue plus etc...what else...stuff like this is what I would prefer to discuss.

Why isn't there a thread sticky "Basic T5 Bulb Combinations by Color"
There are only soo many bulbs out there worth buying. Most questions are: How do i get this color look with what bulbs? Someone should sticky a basic guide for color and growth combos, there couldn't be that many. After all there is a MH sticky.

[Froggy]

Without a sticky I would say good luck on changing the questions in this thread.
This thread is titled "The T5 Q&A thread". When it comes to T5's and especially questions from new hobbyists as well as experienced hobbyists changing lighting formats, the most common concern is going to be bulb combination.

Most will want to know what bulbs look good together and want the answer quickly from others that have experience trying different combinations. After all, most do not want to buy more bulbs than they need at $20 - $30 a pop. In the instant gratification/satisfaction world we live in it is easier to ask "what 4, 6, 8, 10, bulbs should I use to give me good growth and color" etc. instead of taking the time to read through the wealth of information in this huge thread.

I do enjoy the other aspects of discussion you suggest Mike and I also enjoy the technical side Dennis adds ( although some of it goes over my head at times ). Most people though will not want or need to read about the technical aspects of lighting spectrum and wavelength and want to know "what will look good?"

I would love to hear more about the things you mentioned Mike but the bulb combo questions will still be the majority until there is a specific source of reference beyond this thread i.e. "sticky"

Joe

[Michigan Mike]

We can quit answering the same questions. Post links instead.
I guess you haven't read the thread or looked 1 page back.
The thing is it should have been a sticky long ago, the links need little update even now as the new bulbs like the ATI coral plus & KZ new gen aren't a deal-breaker & the basics are the same.

It can happen, a sticky should be here. ATI & Grim's website pretty much cover it, its up to personal preference after all but the fundamental basics are covered between those, we may need some ge6500/coral plus/new gen help but between all the manufacturers' of like bulbs there is little difference, noticeable yes, but the basics do not change. Its very simple.

[TropTrea]

Actualy there would p[robably be a dozen different stickies out there.

Looking at the different T-5 bulbs on the market today is actualy well over a dozen bulbs. Most of us look at bhe bulbs sold by one distributor however there are also several oother brand name for T-5 bulbs that I have never seen posted here. Interestingly when I had a pet store these were also the brands available through my distributors rather the brands discussed here. Some examples being:

Coralife 10,000K
Coralife 6,700K
Coral life 420nm Atinic
Coral Life Color Max

When I had my store my distributors initialy handled Penplax, UVL, and Coralife bulbs. Then they dropped UVL since it was a low seller. Since then Penplax has stopped production of there T-5 lights. When UVL was dropped I did pick up an assorted case of there bulbs some of which I still have today, unused.

[creefer01]

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

I do like GSMguy's ideas about this thread moving away from the same combo questions over & over to actual T5 discussion.

When is blue too blue? How much of the spectrum is covered with T5 bulbs? - def more than LEDs as T5 have a much broader range. Proof of coral color morph & if its permanent.

How much more PAR ATI fixtures have vs Aquaticlife,TEK, & how much cooling helps PAR & bulb longevity & the difference between reflectors, ballasts,etc...

The minute differences between brands of bulbs that are similar like GMANN's MIDDAY vs GE6500 or GMANN's actinic plus vs ATI blue plus etc...what else...stuff like this is what I would prefer to discuss.

I like this idea, personally. I think it would have helped my purchasing choices when I first got into T5.

[JonnyD91]

Originally Posted by TropTrea

Actualy there would p[robably be a dozen different stickies out there.

Looking at the different T-5 bulbs on the market today is actualy well over a dozen bulbs. Most of us look at bhe bulbs sold by one distributor however there are also several oother brand name for T-5 bulbs that I have never seen posted here. Interestingly when I had a pet store these were also the brands available through my distributors rather the brands discussed here. Some examples being:

Coralife 10,000K
Coralife 6,700K
Coral life 420nm Atinic
Coral Life Color Max

When I had my store my distributors initialy handled Penplax, UVL, and Coralife bulbs. Then they dropped UVL since it was a low seller. Since then Penplax has stopped production of there T-5 lights. When UVL was dropped I did pick up an assorted case of there bulbs some of which I still have today, unused.

If we could get together a spread sheet like data structure, i could make a single page web application behind a database. Id just need the information.

it would be cool if a user could go there

pick a fixture
Pick how many bulbs

hit calculate
get data back and then sort by

corals it can grow
basic color look i.e. 10k all the way to 20k and in between
and then the bulb combo's that give those looks and growth.

In reality for the recommendations in this thread, there is only a few brands and bulbs we "recommend"

There would have to be some basic to advanced algorithm behind it but the hardest part after that is done is keeping the DB up to date.

Just thinking out loud here.

[bpcardona]

Originally Posted by JonnyD91

If we could get together a spread sheet like data structure, i could make a single page web application behind a database. Id just need the information.

it would be cool if a user could go there

pick a fixture
Pick how many bulbs

hit calculate
get data back and then sort by

corals it can grow
basic color look i.e. 10k all the way to 20k and in between
and then the bulb combo's that give those looks and growth.

In reality for the recommendations in this thread, there is only a few brands and bulbs we "recommend"

There would have to be some basic to advanced algorithm behind it but the hardest part after that is done is keeping the DB up to date.

Just thinking out loud here.

This would be amazing!! I would help but I simply don't have the knowledge. Could someone please get with Johnny and help.

[Michigan Mike]

Originally Posted by TropTrea

Actualy there would p[robably be a dozen different stickies out there.



Coralife 10,000K
Coralife 6,700K
Coral life 420nm Atinic
Coral Life Color Max

.

Coralife bulbs are horrible, and penplaxx is okay for a planted tank but not much different than a Hagen power GLO 18,000k. Its not the best, but a sub for a purple bulb.

UVL was the best you mentioned and still could be a competitor with the other big 3 name brands, they have the highest PAR actinic, but their bulb names can be confusing also.

[TropTrea]

I love some of the toughts coming out here especialy those about the data base or calculator. I used to be be able to work with java script and C++ to set up something like that I have not played with in in roughly 10 years so I wonder if I could still do it? The other thing is that there are so many variables.

For the divers we could relate the K temp to the ocean and the different levels of the ocean that the corals do grow at. As I coud see the formula working.

Johnny puts in his tank size, the type of fixture he has, and his prefered color effect. The data base then returns his recommended bulb combination and which corals should work the best for him at various heights of the aquarium.

But there is one big problem with that color temp. Color temp reflects more the tint color than the actual ratio of white to blue if we were to use true color temp ratings. As an example from the chromatic scale I had posted a 3,000K light can fall anywhere between a pure yellow to white to violet, while a 40,000K light can be anywhere from aqua blue at a pure 496 nm to near whute to a violet. In reality some of the lighting schemes that we look at for the reef are beyound the Color Temperature Charts as we prefer to add light in the 460 nm, 454nm and 420 nm ranges.

I know that I had worked with some physicist that would be able to do this very easily but I think that aproach would be too difficult. What might be easier is working from the light bulbs backwards.

An example is Jack selects 4 bulbs and the data base then adds the spectrum plot of each the 4 bulbs togeter and plots out on the XY Chromatic chart the coordinates of the final combination. This then returns the data of light intensity (or PAR in our case) and K temperature for the bulb combination.

But again there are some glips in this idea as well. First off someone would need to have a vary accurate light spectrum anylizer and have to run the spectrum on several bulbs with different manufacturing lots for each bulb in the data base. You have the cost of the anylizer Which have come down to the $1,000 range but are still a huge investment for some individual. It is questionable as to the accuracy of a $1,000 instrument for our purpose as the blue sensor is calibrated to 460 nm and we will be looking at levels as low as 380nm or 420 nm. Then you are also talking about purchasing a large number of HO T-5 bulbs adding to the cost.

Do-able yes but who wants to invest the money? If I still had my old job it would no problem I could probably run a different bulb through every day on my lunch break at work. So unles we have someone working in the lighting industry or at a big university with a lighting lab I do not think it is practical.

[JonnyD91]

^^

I think (for lack of a better word) we could dumb this down a bit. Prob. 80% of the people asking bulb questions in this thread don't care about the nitty gritty. They want to know which bulbs look pretty blue and can grow SPS using X fixture. KISS method works here.

[Michigan Mike]

I know I wanted to have bulb combos/fixtures with pics so people can see what the different combos will look like before they spend the money on bulbs they may not like.
But then the issues of camera white balance and how difficult it is to represent what the eye is seeing with a camera, not everyone is a photographer, not to mention every computer screen is a little different color so it would look different between my iPhone, iPad & Mac & PC.

[smaione618]

hey guys not to break good conversation on something that would be totally awesome like one of those charts even if there is a diff in color for every screen you have..... but i have a question that i cant find to answer myself. i have been looking for diff combos for a 4x80w` setup but cant find anything that just has great growth and ok coloring.

also after that is answered i have to tell you that i had made an impulse buy and lets just say it was a 150 dollar mistake on a 72" odyssea fixture do you know if there is a retro fit upgrade that i could use on that fixture. if not a whole retro fit setup maybe just the reflectors that may fit on it.

Thanks in advance and next time i will be doing more research before buying.

right now i have this setup but have to change anything is better than what i have

front

10000 daylight
actinic blue
10000 day
actinic blue

back

they are all the bulbs that came with the fixture itself odyssea brand

[Michigan Mike]

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

This is Grim's website. Its a little dated but is a guide that is still very useful.
http://home.comcast.net/~stevelarsen...e440b269901e5a

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

ATI bulb combo recommendations. Link @ bottom of the page- bulb recommendations.
http://atinorthamerica.com/faq.php

Originally Posted by Michigan Mike

Noobs should read this
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...our+t5ho+bulbs

Check these links out & go from there.

[Michigan Mike]

Great growth/decent color
1 GE6500 / aquablue special for more blue
2 blue plus
1 purple plus

Your better off buying a new fixture.

[smaione618]

Blue

2. Fiji Purple or ATI Purple Plus

3. Aquablue

4. Blue

So this will give me a blur looking tank but will it make my corals grow better

[kissman]

http://www.atinorthamerica.com/faq.php

click on the FAQ what bulb combo

[smaione618]

i looked at that but it didnt tell me which spectrum gives me the best growth but i think i have figured it out threw searching for the last 2 days......... the lower the kelvin rating the more growth you will get but the crapier the colors you will be able to keep. as you move up in kelvin the better colors you can keep but you will get less growth the further up the chart you move.... the only thing i dont understand is how the nm relates to all this.

[Michigan Mike]

Low kelvin like 6500k & 10,000k is more yellow & white looking, it is very intense light that grows coral vey well. Higher kelvin like 15,000k-20,000k equals more blue looking color & has better coral color but usually less intense light, especially with halides but blue T5 bulbs are very strong so this doesn't apply as much with T5.

Think of it like this (in a easy to understand roundabout not very exact kinda way)
UV light- 420nm actinic (violet)- 460nm blue- 3000k red -6000k yellow- 10,000k white,15,000k white/blue- 20,000k+ blue

[Michigan Mike]

You like this? More or less blue than this?
2 blue
1 purple
1 ge6500

A lot of us consider this not blue enough.