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Unread 06/14/2018, 03:41 PM   #1
FishProf
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Comment on DYI sump design?

Would you kindly comment on this design?

Thanks!


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Unread 06/14/2018, 05:42 PM   #2
LeaveItToReefer
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I would put the refugium after the skimmer with a separate return feeding the refugium for nutrients. A lot of beneficial critters grow in the refugium which will get sucked into the skimmer if placed before it.


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Unread 06/14/2018, 05:57 PM   #3
Lsufan
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U can remove some of those baffles. Also, I see u have a few two baffle bubble traps. That is ok but u want the bubble trap to be under/over if u do it this way. When the bubble come up & over the last baffle it reduces the bubbles. If u go over/ under the bubbles just come out in the bottom of the next section.

I would also place the skimmer before the fuge. Then u wouldn’t have to section off for the socks. U could have the skimmer & socks in the same section. So the only bubble trap u would need would be after the skimmer section. Doing it that way u can eliminate 4 of those baffles. I also like the fuge on the end like the post above mentioned & feeding it from the return pump, but that would depend on the size of the sump which I don’t mention. If it’s a smaller sump, I would just swap the fuge & skimmer around. If it’s a larger sump then I would place the fuge last & feed it from the return pump. Doing it this way u can run the fuge deeper then the rest of the sump & also control the flow separate from the rest of the system.


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Unread 06/14/2018, 06:14 PM   #4
FishProf
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Many thanks!
It's going to be a big big sump ... I'm converting my 210g to 300 gallon tank. The sump will be either 120g or 180g [ideally, 150g, but hard to find 5ft by 2 by 2ft old acrylic tanks].
So, it's a good idea to move the fuge after the skimmer, so as not to chomp up the critters living there [= food for the rest of the aquarium].
What I hear here is that I should put the return right after the skimmer, and have a separate [of sorts] area for the fuge
I also wanted to have a fixed water level in the skimmer section [easier to dial in].
I'll post a revision soon.
Again - Thanks!!


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Unread 06/14/2018, 06:40 PM   #5
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Attached is the revised version.
In red are the baffles that determine the water level - on the right, the one for the refugium [fed by a T off the main return pump], on the left, lower water level baffle, plus a media rack and a bubble trap.
Simple is always better :-)


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Unread 06/14/2018, 08:56 PM   #6
Lsufan
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That looks good to me, definitely better then the first drawing. If u are going to have a 24” tall tank for a sump, I would just make all the baffles the same height. So use something like 12” baffles a run the skimmer & fuge 12” deep & the return 11” deep. Then place the skimmer on a stand so it is at the correct height. I wouldn’t have any more then a 1” drop to the next section. Any more then a 1” waterfall to the next section starts to get loud. If u want to run the fuge deeper, 18” for example. Then I would make that baffle go close to the top of the sump, so if the sump is 24” tall make the baffle 22.5” to 23” tall. Then drill a couple holes at the height u want the water level & use a bulkhead or uniseal so u can attach a 90 & short piece of pipe to get down to the water level of the return section. That way u don’t have a 6” or 7” waterfall going over the baffle, because that would be loud.


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Unread 06/14/2018, 09:34 PM   #7
jjoos99
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so in my sump I have a center section that I currently have full of live rock and rubble. would I be better off removing the live rock and keep a fuge with cheato? sorry if I hijacked the thread, thought it somewhat pertinent to the topic
thanks
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Unread 06/14/2018, 09:58 PM   #8
Lsufan
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It really depends what u want out of the fuge. U definitely don’t want it to be a big detritus trap. So if u don’t mind cleaning it out more often then the liverock is fine. If u want less maintenance & your goals for the fuge is mainly a place for pods to breed & a little help on nutrient control, then just cheato may be the better option.


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Unread 06/14/2018, 10:54 PM   #9
FishProf
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Many thanks. And, Jeff, no problem at all :-)
Yes, having a waterfall noise is certainly not what I want.
Another consideration is not to have a flood when the main return pump stops [and the water in the overflow box drains to the sump. So, it's a balancing act between that and having more water in the system.
-> is there a way to silence the waterfall noise? I can control the refugium flow by the valve t-ed off the main, but not the flow from the overflow box in the main tank -> skimmer -> return pump


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Unread 06/15/2018, 08:25 AM   #10
JTL
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I have my sump set up like your second iteration. I also have the water level in the refugium set almost to the top of the tank with just a water fall and no bubble trap and I get no noise. My fuge has chaeto and a lot of live rock. I made a basket out of egg crate to hold the live rock that way I can move it around to clean the fuge. I have my water level in the sump set to hold all of my drain down water. Remember, in many cases the drain down is more than just the water in the overflow because the returns may be below the overflow and they will siphon back to the sump. In addition to feeding my fuge from the main pump I also have my carbon reactor flowing into the fuge and it is also feed from the return pump. If you have a full siphon from the overflow box like in a Herbie or Bean Animal set up you only need to have the pipe slightly below the water level to keep it quiet.


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Unread 06/15/2018, 10:28 AM   #11
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You are correct - the amount of 'drain-down' water is not just the overflow [actually not much of it, due to the bean animal/Durso/Herbie] - the extra water volume is really the whole horizontal cross section area of the main tank times the height of the slotted 'teeth' of the overflow box.

My tank is 8ft long by 30" wide, the 'teeth' height is 1 3/8". So, a volume of 17 gallons will be drained down. to be on the safe side, let's assume 25 gallons. If my sump is 6ft by 2tf [180gallon], this would result in a water height difference of 3.34" due to overflow/drain down. [if sump is 120g = 4ft by 2ft -> 5" height difference]

BTW, the syphon issue is solved by: [1] having the return lines go slightly over the tank water level and putting a small hole for the air to break the syphon, plus [2] a check valve on the lower portion between the return pump and the main tank.

BTW2, I found that the solution to drain noise does not need all the contraptions like Bean / Durso etc. (though their place in the 'reef community hall of fame' is well deserved) - you simply choke the main drain pipe with a gate valve, plus you put one [two=better] drain pipes above the main drain pipe so in case the main drain pipe gets clogged, the other one will drain (an added 'feature' is that once this happen, you will hear the tank 'gurgling' pretty well).


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Unread 06/15/2018, 12:58 PM   #12
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I don't trust check valves and drilling the hole in the return line may squirt water where you don't want it. I just make sure I have enough headroom to handle the extra water. If you don't submerge the main drain line it is going to be noisy. If the "safety" line is used it also makes a splashing noise. The only time there is gurgling in the overflow is if the water is two low to create a full siphon, then you need to turn down the gate valve. If using a durso set up it will always be noisy.


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Unread 06/15/2018, 01:19 PM   #13
FishProf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTL View Post
I don't trust check valves and drilling the hole in the return line may squirt water where you don't want it. I just make sure I have enough headroom to handle the extra water. If you don't submerge the main drain line it is going to be noisy. If the "safety" line is used it also makes a splashing noise. The only time there is gurgling in the overflow is if the water is two low to create a full siphon, then you need to turn down the gate valve. If using a durso set up it will always be noisy.
I hear you ... The plan is to use all these: plan for more than the overflow/drain water volume, use a check valve, and drill little holes (directed horizontally or below, so the squirt is into the water (the hole will be covered in water during regular operation)


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Unread 06/15/2018, 07:17 PM   #14
Lsufan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishProf View Post
Many thanks. And, Jeff, no problem at all :-)
Yes, having a waterfall noise is certainly not what I want.
Another consideration is not to have a flood when the main return pump stops [and the water in the overflow box drains to the sump. So, it's a balancing act between that and having more water in the system.
-> is there a way to silence the waterfall noise? I can control the refugium flow by the valve t-ed off the main, but not the flow from the overflow box in the main tank -> skimmer -> return pump
U control the noise by setting the sump up correctly so U don’t have a waterfall more then about a inch over any baffles. U may be able to get away with more then 1” on the fuge if u feed it separately because u can dial the flow down in the fuge. The lower the flow is the more the water will flow down the glass instead of over it, which makes it quieter. As long as your drains are submerged in the sump (no more then 1”) & u don’t have any splashing from waterfalls going over the baffles then it will be pretty quiet.

With the size of the sump u are talking about using the water that drains down when the return pump gets turned off really shouldn’t be a issue unless your return outlets are way below the water level in the dt. Other then the fuge section, I really don’t see the point in running the sump more then 10 to 12” deep. So on a 24” tank u would only be running it half full which would leave u anywhere between 50 & 90 gallons of room for the extra water depending on the size of the sump u ultimately decide to use. That should be plenty


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Unread 06/15/2018, 11:02 PM   #15
FishProf
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I see what you mean.

In general, my thought is More water volume = Better.

Attached is the newest design. In green I added horizontal sheet that act as a 'toboggan' / slides for the water to avoid splashing (acrylic is easy to cut & glue).

I'm sure there will be more trial and error till I get the final sump up and running.

Many thanks!


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Unread 06/16/2018, 07:42 AM   #16
JTL
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That design will certainly work. You really don't need a baffle between the filter socks and the skimmer but it doesn't hurt anything. The water from my refugium run down the divider rather than like a splashing waterfall so there really no noise. I feed the fuge from the return pump so I can control the flow. The main drain line needs to be submerged a little like Lsufan said.


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Unread 06/16/2018, 02:03 PM   #17
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My sump has an area that is 19 by 17 and I currently have it filled with live rock. I would like to grow cheato. Would I be better off putting a baffle into that area and have rock in half and cheato tumbling in the other half or just place the cheato on top of the live rock that is in there?
thanks
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Unread 06/17/2018, 11:15 AM   #18
oldhead
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I'd ditch the filter sock section and add 1 more baffle between the skimmer and return pump.


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Unread 06/17/2018, 11:23 AM   #19
FishProf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldhead View Post
I'd ditch the filter sock section and add 1 more baffle between the skimmer and return pump.
Would you kindly care to elaborate?

[BTW, I usually don't use a sock, it's just the area where the drain water comes from the overflow box to the sump]


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Unread 06/17/2018, 01:15 PM   #20
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Being able to use socks are a good idea imo, even if u only use them for a day after a water change of cleaning the tank. It is nice to be able to use one after stirring up the tank, even if u don’t use them 24/7. Especially on a large sump where room isn’t really a issue.

The way a bubble trap works is it forces the bubbles to the surface before spilling over to the next section. With a over/under trap the bubbles will just come out on the bottom of the next section, so the trap is forcing the bubbles to the surface. A 2 baffle trap works, but it needs to be a under/over setup. I know u are doing it the way u are because of the media rack, so adding the third baffle may not be a bad idea. Although depending how u do the media rack it may take care of any bubbles, especially if u use some kind of foam. I don’t know what your intentions for the rack are, but I would personally not incorporate it into the sump & just switch those two baffles around to where it is a under/over trap. I prefer using reactors for any media. Reactors don’t have to be placed inside of the sump, so u can add a couple inches to your fuge, but reactors are also the most efficient way to run the media.


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Unread 06/17/2018, 01:41 PM   #21
FishProf
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I see, and I agree. So, under-over makes sense.
BTW, I have a few reactors [carbon, GFI, Calcium, algae]. The media rack is something I saw in ,one of the designs and thought it would be nice to have.
Attached is Sump v.3


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Unread 06/18/2018, 06:18 AM   #22
oldhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishProf View Post
Would you kindly care to elaborate?

[BTW, I usually don't use a sock, it's just the area where the drain water comes from the overflow box to the sump]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lsufan View Post
Being able to use socks are a good idea imo, even if u only use them for a day after a water change of cleaning the tank. It is nice to be able to use one after stirring up the tank, even if u don’t use them 24/7. Especially on a large sump where room isn’t really a issue.

The way a bubble trap works is it forces the bubbles to the surface before spilling over to the next section. With a over/under trap the bubbles will just come out on the bottom of the next section, so the trap is forcing the bubbles to the surface. A 2 baffle trap works, but it needs to be a under/over setup. I know u are doing it the way u are because of the media rack, so adding the third baffle may not be a bad idea. Although depending how u do the media rack it may take care of any bubbles, especially if u use some kind of foam. I don’t know what your intentions for the rack are, but I would personally not incorporate it into the sump & just switch those two baffles around to where it is a under/over trap. I prefer using reactors for any media. Reactors don’t have to be placed inside of the sump, so u can add a couple inches to your fuge, but reactors are also the most efficient way to run the media.
You could always use something like this, since running a sock isn't necessary and the few times you may need them, (I haven't used one in 3 years), you can just stick this in there.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cpr-s...ck-holder.html


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Unread 06/19/2018, 03:37 PM   #23
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I am going through the same process getting ready to section up my sump (40B). I like the latest version you posted with the fuge on the far end with a high water level.. This allows for more fuge volume that is not limited by the water level of the prior sections. I should be able to get about 20 gal fuge for my 120 DT if I go that route.

With regards to the drain, skimmer, and filter sock I dont see any reason these cant all be in the same first section and I'd probably only use the filter sock on occasion.

My return pump requires about 5" of width so I am thinking an approx 5" wide second chamber with bubble trap between 1st and 2nd chambers. I am a bit concerned that the 2nd chamber will be so small that any bubbles that do pass through may get sucked up by the pump and sent to DT. I have no experience with this so input welcome.

Good luck on your project.. Please post updates.


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Unread 06/19/2018, 08:08 PM   #24
Lsufan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritwalker View Post
I am going through the same process getting ready to section up my sump (40B). I like the latest version you posted with the fuge on the far end with a high water level.. This allows for more fuge volume that is not limited by the water level of the prior sections. I should be able to get about 20 gal fuge for my 120 DT if I go that route.

With regards to the drain, skimmer, and filter sock I dont see any reason these cant all be in the same first section and I'd probably only use the filter sock on occasion.

My return pump requires about 5" of width so I am thinking an approx 5" wide second chamber with bubble trap between 1st and 2nd chambers. I am a bit concerned that the 2nd chamber will be so small that any bubbles that do pass through may get sucked up by the pump and sent to DT. I have no experience with this so input welcome.

Good luck on your project.. Please post updates.

U may want to consider making your return section a little bigger then the bare minimum. I always make it big enough to where u can get by for atleast two days. Ato’s do malfunction, it could be somthing as simple as forgetting to turn it back on. So I try to keep a couple of gallons extra in the return section just Incase this happens.

Somthing else to consider is the water that will drain to the sump when u turn your return pump off. If your fuge holds 20 gallons & the rest of the sump holds 12 to 15 gallons, it doesn’t leave u with much space for the extra water. Not knowing the layout dimensions it’s harder to say, but It may be ok with your setup but it is definitely somthing to consider. The rest of your plan sounds good. Drain, sock & skimmer can all be in the same section with the bubble trap before the return.


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Unread 06/20/2018, 06:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lsufan View Post
U may want to consider making your return section a little bigger then the bare minimum. I always make it big enough to where u can get by for atleast two days. Ato’s do malfunction, it could be somthing as simple as forgetting to turn it back on. So I try to keep a couple of gallons extra in the return section just Incase this happens.

Somthing else to consider is the water that will drain to the sump when u turn your return pump off. If your fuge holds 20 gallons & the rest of the sump holds 12 to 15 gallons, it doesn’t leave u with much space for the extra water. Not knowing the layout dimensions it’s harder to say, but It may be ok with your setup but it is definitely somthing to consider. The rest of your plan sounds good. Drain, sock & skimmer can all be in the same section with the bubble trap before the return.
Good point. Thanks

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