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Old 11/02/2015, 03:43 PM   #2151
Budman422
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When I had dinos I could take and put it in another tank . The other tank had no dinos and it would disapeare. I still believe it is an imbalance and lack of diversity. I am dino free in my tank for about 11 months. I do water changes once a month. But I do not run gfo or carbon anymore. I also still feed heavy.


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Old 11/02/2015, 06:57 PM   #2152
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How can I ID them? I am friendly with a Marine Bio teacher, and could get a sample to someone with a microscope. If I cover the tank should I just pour some food under the blanket, or canI uncover to feed? I had an anemone, but hint seen him in about a month. I am not sure if the nastiness killed him.

Thanks Derek


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Old 11/02/2015, 07:21 PM   #2153
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Thanks to the dino outbreak I finally catched an small eunice sp worm (maybe 4 inches) I wanted to get rid of, for a long time. It wandered along the front glas when tank lights switched on. It had a red colour and looked very similar to a bristle worm, but five antennas on its head, feed shaped prickles to move fast on the ground and spitting out a sticky saliva-like secretion are unmistakeable ^^ . The dino infestation must have an effect on worms too, they wander around more than usual during lights out phase. I didn't know there are so many spaghetti worms in my tank. Maybe a low oxygen level and/or the dino toxins are the reasons for it?

Sincerely, Dennis

EDIT: @Derek to uncover the tank for feeding is a risk that some dinos could survive the measure but if it is only for short time, though to pour it under the blanket is safer.
I think you should also turn your skimmer wet, oxygen level can drop significantly during the 3-5 days.

For identification under a microscope this site is really helpful: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/
Also this poster can be helpful: http://www.marinebiodiversity.ca/cmb.../dino.jpg/view

it's odd, I've in mind that there was a higher magnification of this poster so you can read the latin names of the dino types.

EDIT2: I also have to say I had no fish in my tank when I have done this measure, I would wait for a second opinion before starting with the lights out method. I'm concerned about your fish.



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Old 11/02/2015, 09:17 PM   #2154
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I haven't introduced anything into this tank in the last 2-3years. the only thing new was a tank, and it was brand new so it couldn't have been contaminated.

Derek


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Old 11/02/2015, 09:27 PM   #2155
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Many microbes can spread very well on its own. I wouldn't spend much time worrying on how a tank got infected with a dinoflagellate. I suspect this one was there from the start, and grew into a plague when the conditions were right, but that's only a guess.


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Old 11/02/2015, 11:13 PM   #2156
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I was wondering if someone could help me out.I have had a successful reef tank for many years and just upgraded recently to a reefer 450. I sold all coral except a few pieces. I used all my old rock and added new sand.

TI Derek
Hey Derek, sorry you have to be in this thread.

If you look in this forum, Sonnus has a method of differentiating dinos and cyano that works really well. You basically take a big sample of the snot with a cup of water, shake the living heck out of it, strain it through a paper towel into a jar and wait. If it's dinos they will reform into a ball that floats in the middle of the jar. It is actually a bit alarming but biologically very cool.

If you're doing lights out RUN CARBON. I lost all my fish because I triggered a mass die-off of dinos during a blackout. (And the dinos came back to add insult to injury) Be prepared to get your fish out if something goes wrong.

hth
ivy


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Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 11/02/2015, 11:32 PM   #2157
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So his tank had no corals in it? Just fish and clean up crew and he still got dinos? I'm still debating whether I believe all tanks have dinos or if it has to be brought in from an infected tank.

One thing I noticed when I did have dinos was that my sand also hardened in several places. I didn't really know what to attribute that to, I thought maybe it had something to do with my calcium.
I've given chaeto clumps to people and they didn't get dinos. I didn't know what I had at the time, I'm not mean enough to stick someone with the plague. I had only corals and cuc when I had them. IMHO all tanks have dinos. They make up a huge percentage of plankton in the ocean, they are ubiquitous in all bodies of water fresh and salty. I've seen them under the microscope on my houseplants that get untreated tap water.

Fish are quite likely to have dinos. Marine velvet (amyloodinium) is caused by a dino for example. I'm reading an interesting paper on dinos now where the author has detected *still intact, living* dino cysts in excrement from copepods and shellfish so it's not farfetched to imagine a fish bringing them to the aquarium.

I'm really interested in this sand issue, I have it too and didn't connect it with dinos. That's 3 of us, anyone else? Of course it could very well be unrelated.

hth
ivy


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Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 11/03/2015, 10:02 AM   #2158
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I also have that hardened substrate but only in my 6 gallon tank (running since 2007, never had a dino outbreak). I've read that the excretions (low pH) of substrate living organisms can dissolve substrate consisting of calcium and magnesium. After that the dissolved calcium and magnesium begin to grow as crystals in the substrate that leads to the hardened substrate we have. Do the shops in the US/Canada sell so called "critterpacks"(containing substrate living creatures) to prevent that hardening?

Sincerely, Dennis



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Old 11/03/2015, 11:02 AM   #2159
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that's the result of bacteria forming sugar like compounds around themselves.. not really creating calcium crystals... The answer is the same though, worms...


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Old 11/03/2015, 11:47 AM   #2160
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Many microbes can spread very well on its own. I wouldn't spend much time worrying on how a tank got infected with a dinoflagellate. I suspect this one was there from the start, and grew into a plague when the conditions were right, but that's only a guess.
i think it's pretty important, at least morally, to figure out how tanks are getting infected so that we know if we can share/sell our livestock...i have 2 frag racks full of fully encrusted frags, not to mention a refugium full of chaeto, that i've been holding on to for almost a year now because i don't know if they will infect someone else's tank and i don't want to take that risk

my theory is that not every tank has them because we see a lot of ULNS tanks out there that has never had them...zeo tanks come into mind...i think they have to be introduced somehow by way of livestock or rock or whatever and people can have them for years and not know because they may have formed cysts, only waiting for the right time to bloom...i just don't buy the theory that they come from nowhere and all tanks simply have them, i think they need to be introduced somehow and once you have them you will always have them so sharing/selling livestock simply spreads it around


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Old 11/03/2015, 01:41 PM   #2161
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Quote:
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I also have that hardened substrate but only in my 6 gallon tank (running since 2007, never had a dino outbreak). I've read that the excretions (low pH) of substrate living organisms can dissolve substrate consisting of calcium and magnesium. After that the dissolved calcium and magnesium begin to grow as crystals in the substrate that leads to the hardened substrate we have. Do the shops in the US/Canada sell so called "critterpacks"(containing substrate living creatures) to prevent that hardening?

Sincerely, Dennis
Yep. Any sandbed without critters moving it around could harden IMO. Anyway I get all of mine from Indo Pacific Sea Farms in Hawaii. To me its the best place to get the right specimens for your tank: IPSF.com just orderded from them last week to replace dieoff from my own Dino outbreak.


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Old 11/03/2015, 01:43 PM   #2162
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@Dfee and garygonzales: ...My tank is completely overrun with cyano atm...
ivy
Hi Ivy, I'm experiencing the same thing! I seemed to have beaten back the Dinos to almost nothing right now, then all of the sudden Cyano outbreak. Maybe its a result of the overfeeding I did from the "dirty" method?

Anyway, don't want to go too far off topic here but curious what you think about your Cyano and what you're doing.

EDIT: I turned my skimmer back on for the first time in MONTHS. dare I do a water change? or run GMO? I'm afraid dinos will come back. Those are what I think triggered my Dino outbreak originally to battle an algae problem.


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Old 11/03/2015, 03:48 PM   #2163
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Hi Ivy, I'm experiencing the same thing! I seemed to have beaten back the Dinos to almost nothing right now, then all of the sudden Cyano outbreak. Maybe its a result of the overfeeding I did from the "dirty" method?

Anyway, don't want to go too far off topic here but curious what you think about your Cyano and what you're doing.

EDIT: I turned my skimmer back on for the first time in MONTHS. dare I do a water change? or run GMO? I'm afraid dinos will come back. Those are what I think triggered my Dino outbreak originally to battle an algae problem.
I to did the dirty method, I managed the cyano with a turkey baster until I was confident the dinos were gone, then I did a chemiclean treatment to get rid of the cyano and it has never returned. I keep my po4 at .02 to .06 and nitrate at 5 ppm.


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Old 11/03/2015, 07:00 PM   #2164
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Hi Ivy, I'm experiencing the same thing! I seemed to have beaten back the Dinos to almost nothing right now, then all of the sudden Cyano outbreak. Maybe its a result of the overfeeding I did from the "dirty" method?

Anyway, don't want to go too far off topic here but curious what you think about your Cyano and what you're doing.
In my tank I see a very predictable response:

-0 nitrates 0 phosphates= really happy dinos, nothing else at all grows
-low nitrates no phosphates=tiny cyano (it's cheating somehow) and dinos
-low nitrates low phosphates=dinos are dying back noticably, cyano bloom continues but starting to see diatoms and green slime on the glass. Chaeto starts growing again.
-nitrates over 1, phosphate .03=only green algae and diatoms on glass, dinos not visible in tank altho persist under microscope samples off filter

I'm not doing anything about the cyano, for me it's a good sign, that I need to keep increasing my N/P. Well, I do siphon it out.

I'd wait on the water change if I were you! Cyano is ugly but really it's a good sign. You want the green algae to be firmly enough established that they're getting all the nutrients in the tank.


Oh and I totally agree about the benefits of sandbed microfauna. Nobody ships to Canada. If you hear of a source pm me and I'll make them rich.

ivy
PS here's a picture. Looks bad eh? The white arrow is pointing to GREEN stuff on the glass, which only shows up when nutrients go up enough for the cyano bloom. That coral's on the sandbed because I thought it was a Duncan. I now think it may be an elegance..
[IMG][/IMG]


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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15

Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 11/03/2015 at 07:24 PM. Reason: added picture
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Old 11/03/2015, 07:45 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress View Post
i think it's pretty important, at least morally, to figure out how tanks are getting infected so that we know if we can share/sell our livestock...

my theory is that not every tank has them because we see a lot of ULNS tanks out there that has never had them...zeo tanks come into mind..
But do those beautiful ULNS tanks have a "subclinical" number of dinos?

I'll ask my LFS for a sand sample next time I'm up there. They have super clean looking tanks.

hth
ivy


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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 11/03/2015, 10:03 PM   #2166
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dcforestr1, I read back in this thread where Ivy stated some strains of dino requires 8 days blackout. I did the full 8 days covered up tight, no feeding and ran skimmer wet which after 3rd day the skimming dropped off drastically. I fed fish very well for over a week before I blackout tank they all were fine after 8 days without feeding. Also have three green bubble 3 gbt anemones that made it just fine, all I lost was dino. I lost no corals, just dinosaur for 9 days now.


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Old 11/04/2015, 12:09 AM   #2167
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dcforestr1, I read back in this thread where Ivy stated some strains of dino requires 8 days blackout. I did the full 8 days covered up tight, no feeding and ran skimmer wet which after 3rd day the skimming dropped off drastically. I fed fish very well for over a week before I blackout tank they all were fine after 8 days without feeding. Also have three green bubble 3 gbt anemones that made it just fine, all I lost was dino. I lost no corals, just dinosaur for 9 days now.
I lost a RBTA, a condy anemone and a sarcophyton soft coral after 3 and a half days lights out. Though I'm not sure it was the lights out itself or low oxygen levels because my tank is cube shaped (bad volume to water surface ratio)... It has three powerheads (2x900litres/hour and one 1600litres/hour) and 13 gallons volume but the powerheads have nylon socks around them (for anemone safety) so efficiency is reduced.

I also think that cyanobacterias aren't bad. They just fill up the nearly empty microfauna of a tank after dinos are defeated but they are definitely not destructive as them. They are even cultured for feeding purposes e.g. spirulina powder.

Sincerely, Dennis


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Old 11/04/2015, 01:31 AM   #2168
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Cyano is toxic, I think.


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Old 11/04/2015, 02:00 AM   #2169
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I didn't know there is a phyotplankton type consisting of red dinoflagellates: Rhodomonas baltica. But breeding is difficult from what I've read (one of the toughest in phytoplankton breeding), also it serves only for feeding purposes...

Sincerely, Dennis

EDIT: @karimwassef there are too many variant cyanobacteria types to make a general statement about their toxicity.



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Old 11/04/2015, 05:59 AM   #2170
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Pods of all types eat dinos, what do you guys feed in DT and refugium for pods to keep a population thriving and or other things to encourage population? Thanks


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Old 11/04/2015, 08:44 AM   #2171
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http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jmb/2012/259571/

Section 2.6


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Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
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Old 11/04/2015, 09:27 AM   #2172
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@karimwassef: chapeau!

Dinocalypse lasts for six days now, today they began to grow on the live rocks, no signs of any green algae though I'm feeding 3 times than normal. Guys the tank looks horrible I could cry, it really hurts me to see it like that...

Sincerely, Dennis


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Old 11/04/2015, 10:27 AM   #2173
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Anyone have sps and battling dinoflagellates?


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Old 11/04/2015, 11:48 AM   #2174
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Pods of all types eat dinos, what do you guys feed in DT and refugium for pods to keep a population thriving and or other things to encourage population? Thanks
Copepods like phytoplankton, amphipods eat everything, I feed my culture flake food.


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Old 11/04/2015, 11:52 AM   #2175
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Anyone have sps and battling dinoflagellates?
Yes. It's a rollercoster and I don't recommend it.
SPS will suffer with no growth for a very long time, then grow some then die back, often to 1% of the original size.

A single small frag is alright for measuring the conditions for SPS.


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