Pairing Clownfish

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ant276
Oh man, I now have to go through this process. It seems that the big female went carpet surfing. How on earth she fit through a 2 inch gap in the back of the tank I don't know.

I have, sorry had 2 false perc's and I think they were just becoming mature. The one left is pretty beat up, should I wait until he become's the dominant female and introduce a smaller one or should I go out and get a new smaller one now even though he has already been fighting?

He is in the tank with two pajama cardinals and no host.

Tony

At the very least give the current fish time to heal. You will have better results by growing out the current fish to >2" and then introducing an small sexless fish.

BTW, I have seen fully grown 3"+ A. ocellaris squeeze thru egg create when used to separate a tank. Make sure there are no gaps in your top, all clownfish can jump, some more than others.

[ant276]

That's what I thought. It's just odd watching him swim through the tank. He seem's to be looking for her. I'm going to mesh that area over where she got through.

Thx

Tony

[jgoelz]

O.K. I am in the middle of introducing a potential mate for my 3 1/2 inch Gold striped maroon. I have a 1 inch teenie little maroon in a clear plastic isolation/ breeder box which I sunk to the bottom near the females hangout. I have noticed the female swim up to the box. The little one meets her at the plastic and begins "convulsing" I haven't seen any "agressive" behavior yet from the female. Is she just waiting for me to let him out of the box so she can attack him?

The little one has been in the tank for 4 days now. Do you guys think it is safe to let him out?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by jgoelz
O.K. I am in the middle of introducing a potential mate for my 3 1/2 inch Gold striped maroon. I have a 1 inch teenie little maroon in a clear plastic isolation/ breeder box which I sunk to the bottom near the females hangout. I have noticed the female swim up to the box. The little one meets her at the plastic and begins "convulsing" I haven't seen any "agressive" behavior yet from the female. Is she just waiting for me to let him out of the box so she can attack him?

The little one has been in the tank for 4 days now. Do you guys think it is safe to let him out?

Yep, time to let him out. Just watch them...

[rza007]

JHardman- awesome threads.

heres my deal.
I have an A. Frenatus that has been with me for a long time now. I want to give it a mate. After reading your two great threads about clown fish, I decided to give the pairing a shot. I purchased a tomato that is visibly smaller than the clown I have. As soon as they laid eyes on each other, I saw many of the actions your explained in the thread. The smaller clown showed no aggression while the larger was defensive of its anemone.

Heres my deal-

I have a giant colony of LTA’s on one side of my tank which houses the L tomato. On the opposite side of the tank lives a Rbta which the new smaller clown has taken to. Throughout the day, the larger clown will swim over to the Rbta and share the Rbta with the small clown, however, when the small clown swims over to the larger clowns Lta’s- the L clown shows aggression and is again defensive but does no harm. Also, at night they sleep on opposite sides of the tank.

Am I on the right track to a successful pair? I would really like my clown for 3 years to start spawning.

This has been going on since (11/16)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by rza007
JHardman- awesome threads.

heres my deal.
I have an A. Frenatus that has been with me for a long time now. I want to give it a mate. After reading your two great threads about clown fish, I decided to give the pairing a shot. I purchased a tomato that is visibly smaller than the clown I have. As soon as they laid eyes on each other, I saw many of the actions your explained in the thread. The smaller clown showed no aggression while the larger was defensive of its anemone.

Heres my deal-

I have a giant colony of LTA’s on one side of my tank which houses the L tomato. On the opposite side of the tank lives a Rbta which the new smaller clown has taken to. Throughout the day, the larger clown will swim over to the Rbta and share the Rbta with the small clown, however, when the small clown swims over to the larger clowns Lta’s- the L clown shows aggression and is again defensive but does no harm. Also, at night they sleep on opposite sides of the tank.

Am I on the right track to a successful pair? I would really like my clown for 3 years to start spawning.

This has been going on since (11/16)

Sounds fine. They have accepted eachother. It takes time to build the pair bond. They will go thru several stages, and not being allowed in the females anemone is typical of a new pairing. Just wait, they are working it out.

[jgoelz]

Success!!! I let the little guy out of isolation the night before last and he is still alive. He just follows the big female around like a little puppy. She looks to have accepted him ( or at least will tolerate him). No aggressive behavior at all from her. Let's wait and see if they form a mating pair. Thanks for the input.

[MLudl]

Yet another GS Maroon pairing question. I have a female that has been with me for offer 5 years in a 29 gallon tank. She is over 3" nose to tail. I have recently set up a 55 gallon that she will be moved into and would like to pair her up in the process. So here are my 2 choices:

a) Purchase a small clown and add him to the new tank first, let him get settled a little (only a few days), and then introduce the female, probably in a container.

or

b) Add the female first and let her get settled, and then go through the normal "adding a male to an established female" routine, as described above.

I would like to try a), as I would like the female to be the last fish added to the new tank, but if b) is more likely to result in succes, than I will take that route.

Thanks,
Mark

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MLudl
Yet another GS Maroon pairing question. I have a female that has been with me for offer 5 years in a 29 gallon tank. She is over 3" nose to tail. I have recently set up a 55 gallon that she will be moved into and would like to pair her up in the process. So here are my 2 choices:

a) Purchase a small clown and add him to the new tank first, let him get settled a little (only a few days), and then introduce the female, probably in a container.

or

b) Add the female first and let her get settled, and then go through the normal "adding a male to an established female" routine, as described above.

I would like to try a), as I would like the female to be the last fish added to the new tank, but if b) is more likely to result in succes, than I will take that route.

Thanks,
Mark

You will have a much higher likelihood of success with adding the female first, giving her a few weeks to settle in, then adding a small juvenile of about 3/4" but no greater than 1.5".

Here is why... A maroon will defend it's territory and a maroon entering a new territory will be more likely to be submissive. So if you were to add the small juvenile first, it would claim territory and defend it from the larger female which is exactly what you do not want to happen.

[DominOE]

Hi, i am having trouble pairing two clowns b/c i think they are different species and are the same size. I belive one is supposedly a true percula while the other is a false (oscellaris). I had the oscellaris in the tank for about 2 weeks before i added the second true percula. Now the oscellaris is bossing the new percula around whenever they near eachother. I notice that once in a while they approach and have epileptic seizures, as you have mentioned. Other times, they have no association with eachother.
But one promising thing is that they both sleep at the same spot with eachother (the top corner of the tank).
Also, would you know why they wouldn't' be hosting my condy lactis, bubble tip anemone, or hairy mushroom? I've had all of them in there for about 3 weeks now. My tank is a 20 gallon with a seaclone skimmer and 160 watt PC lighting.
If you could help at all, that would be great, thankyou

-Tony

[BLUESMAN]

Well none of your hosts are natural hosts to either True/False Peculas. Second they are both prob females, or are going thru their sex change. You might get lucky and neither will kill each other and they might host in the BTA( I guess that's the good news!). Blue

[JHardman]

Originally posted by DominOE
Hi, i am having trouble pairing two clowns b/c i think they are different species and are the same size. I belive one is supposedly a true percula while the other is a false (oscellaris). I had the oscellaris in the tank for about 2 weeks before i added the second true percula. Now the oscellaris is bossing the new percula around whenever they near eachother. I notice that once in a while they approach and have epileptic seizures, as you have mentioned. Other times, they have no association with eachother.
But one promising thing is that they both sleep at the same spot with eachother (the top corner of the tank).
Also, would you know why they wouldn't' be hosting my condy lactis, bubble tip anemone, or hairy mushroom? I've had all of them in there for about 3 weeks now. My tank is a 20 gallon with a seaclone skimmer and 160 watt PC lighting.
If you could help at all, that would be great, thankyou

-Tony

Give them some time. It doesn't sound like they have been in the tank very long, and that is likely why they are sleeping on the surface.

If you do not have a good dominate submissive relationship forming in a couple of weeks, you might consider taking on of the fish back for a smaller fish of the same species. With non aggressive species like A. ocellaris and A. percula the grow out technique with one larger and one smaller fish, has the best likelihood of success. But can take a couple weeks for the relationship to really show.

You might want to ask about the host(s) in a separate post so we do not get too off topic in this already long post.

Originally posted by BLUESMAN
Second they are both prob females, or are going thru their sex change. You might get lucky and neither will kill each other and they might host in the BTA( I guess that's the good news!). Blue

It is VERY unlikely that both are female. Two females in the same tank 999 times out a 1000 will fight, typically ending in jaw locking.

Without knowing the size and species of the fish, there is no way to know if the fish are even old/big enough to change sex. In new pairings, the first and foremost thing to happen is a dominate submissive relationship is established. Sex change will not start to happen until this relationship is worked out and only if the fish are physically mature.

[DominOE]

Thankyou for the info.

I take that back, i've had BOTh the clowns in the tank for about a month now.

How long does it take for a sex change and at what is is physically mature and how long would it take according to my fishs' sizes? If it is going to take too longk, as you said, i will return one for a smaller one.

Here is the pic.
http://www.angelfire.com/ex/s2k-racer/2clowns.JPG

[JHardman]

Originally posted by DominOE
Thankyou for the info.

I take that back, i've had BOTh the clowns in the tank for about a month now.

How long does it take for a sex change and at what is is physically mature and how long would it take according to my fishs' sizes? If it is going to take too longk, as you said, i will return one for a smaller one.

Here is the pic.
http://www.angelfire.com/ex/s2k-racer/2clowns.JPG

From the looks in the picture those are two juveniles about 6-9 months old, likely CB fish from ORA. Both are A. ocellaris, common name "false percula".

A. ocellaris are physically mature between 12 and 18 months old. Once they are physically mature the sex change can happen in as little as a month.

Considering the likely age/size of the fish, I would just let them be. Being as young as they are, it will take a few months before they are a solid pair. As long as their fighting doesn't cause any heavy damage (missing chunks of fin for example), just leave them be to work it out.

[ezhoops]

just introduced a white stripe Maroon to my GSM female, first try wasn't too bad, a little chasing and biting. The male is shivering to her but she could care less. I know that a White and Gold Maroon are the same species /so they will mate if everything goes according to plan right? I have read that they would be just checking. I hope that everything works, cause I hate to have to cycle through a bunch of males. Can you just try the same male fish a couple weeks after the intial try?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
just introduced a white stripe Maroon to my GSM female, first try wasn't too bad, a little chasing and biting. The male is shivering to her but she could care less. I know that a White and Gold Maroon are the same species /so they will mate if everything goes according to plan right? I have read that they would be just checking. I hope that everything works, cause I hate to have to cycle through a bunch of males. Can you just try the same male fish a couple weeks after the intial try?

Yes they are the same species and are quite capable of pairing and spawning.

If you reread this post for submissive and dominate behavior you will know that the main thing after the smaller fish has submitted is for the female to recognize this and stop her attacks short.

You are underestimating these fish if you think that the female will not recognize the same juvenile/male a couple of weeks later. Clownfish are very visual fish with long memories.

Remember you are forming a bonded pair relationship and both fish have to accept each other. Try (3) times over the course of 3 to 5 days. IME if you do not have a pairing after (3) tries, you never will. Sure you can try a couple of more times and get lucky, but the odds of a successful pairing goes down with each failed attempt.

Something that you do not mention is if the fish you are trying to introduce is WC or CB. It makes me wonder because the fish from your description already has it's gold bars. If it has all of it’s bars gold it is physically mature and might well have started to change sex already. A physically mature fish can change sex in a month, which if the fish was WC could well be about how long it has been more or less along and having all the clues to change sex and is doing so.

This is the primary reason I recommend pairing with small CB juveniles from a community tank, where you are almost assured of getting a sexless juvenile, not to mention that all new fish should be QT’ed for 4-6 weeks to insure you are not introducing diseases and parasites into your healthy fish population, which means if you are buying a WC fish that is physically mature (many are), it will likely be a female by the time you are done with QT.

[ezhoops]

they are both WC, the female is the GSM with gold coloring, the male is a small White stripe. I guess I did under estimate them. If this male doesn't work, often soon till I can try another and what should I look for in another male? I hate this I feel like I'm torturing my male maroon?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
they are both WC, the female is the GSM with gold coloring, the male is a small White stripe. I guess I did under estimate them. If this male doesn't work, often soon till I can try another and what should I look for in another male? I hate this I feel like I'm torturing my male maroon?

Look for a small (about 3/4") CB fish from a community tank. You can try with another juvenile as soon as you want. But again I recommend QT'ing all new fish, especially this time of year when brook is on the rampage in wholesale and retail tanks.

[ezhoops]

I know this sounds lame but my the person I get my clowns from q't all clownfish 10 days before he sells them. He uses Meth blue. something like that. Do you know of somewhere I could get a 3/4 maroon white or gold? My LFS doesn't carry them, I got the female from tropicorium, I could try their again.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
I know this sounds lame but my the person I get my clowns from q't all clownfish 10 days before he sells them. He uses Meth blue. something like that. Do you know of somewhere I could get a 3/4 maroon white or gold? My LFS doesn't carry them, I got the female from tropicorium, I could try their again.

Ten days is not long enough for a QT, 4 weeks minimum, 6 weeks recommended. Sorry but all ten days is going to do is let the fish in poor shape die in private. There are a lot of things one can use in a prophylactic treatment method to treat new WC/CB clownfish, but metholine (sp) blue is not one that I would use. Formalin, malachite green, pipzine, yes. I commend him/her for the effort, but frankly it is not enough to insure that new fish are not infected/infested.

You can get CB maroons from any LFS, if they are willing to order them. ORA carries GSM and WSM at a minimum of 1", just ask your LFS to order them (small size), then pick up the fish before they put it in their tanks and you will not need to QT the new fish, as ORA (or any other breeder worth a hoot) does not ship diseased or parasite infested fish.

[algaefree]

ezhoops,

Have you tried Tropicorium in Romulus?

[ezhoops]

Have you tried Tropicorium in Romulus?

That is where I bought the female from. She is a beautiful creature. I haven't checked with them in a while but the usually only have 3-4 inch GSM, unless you buy a pair, they will not separate a pair, thinking that now I should have just bought a pair in the first place. by time I find a suitable male and spend a billion dollars buying and trading all the failures out I could have bought 2 pair of GSM's. I'll give them a call in the morning.
Thanks

P.s. Maybe I'll get lucky and they will get along tomorrow. I'm giving it till wednesday. Cause then I will not be at school for the holiday and I don't want to leave the little guy in the specimen container over the break.

[ezhoops]

Jhardman thanks for the tip, I will try to order through ORA.

[MLudl]

JHardman, Thanks for the reply. I will introduce all of my other fish first, and then the female GSM, and then start looking for a suitable mate.

I do have one more question concerning the timing of sex changes. From your multiple replies above, it seems that age is the determining factor concerning when they can begin to change sex, is this true? I ask because I sometimes see small (less than 1" nose to tail) GSM clowns with their stripes already a bright yellow color. I think you mentioned that these are probably WC, and could be 10 years old already. I assume this means they can change sex pretty quickly, even though they are only 1" long. Thanks again for this very informative thread!

Mark

PS: my local fish store says they do not like to carry captive bred clowns because there is a very high incedence of deformaties like flat faces and misbarring, caused by inbreeding. Is there any truth to this?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MLudl
JHardman, Thanks for the reply. I will introduce all of my other fish first, and then the female GSM, and then start looking for a suitable mate.

I do have one more question concerning the timing of sex changes. From your multiple replies above, it seems that age is the determining factor concerning when they can begin to change sex, is this true? I ask because I sometimes see small (less than 1" nose to tail) GSM clowns with their stripes already a bright yellow color. I think you mentioned that these are probably WC, and could be 10 years old already. I assume this means they can change sex pretty quickly, even though they are only 1" long. Thanks again for this very informative thread!

You got it. There are two requirements for a sex change, first is being physically mature, which is strictly an age based thing. With clownfish, depending on species physical maturity is reached between 12-24 months. Second are the environmental factors of dominance.

So it is quite possible to have a 3/4" clownfish that is 30 years old and sexless, as it has spent it's entire life in a hierarchy and never been in a position to be sexual.

A physically mature clownfish can change sex in a month. This was documented by Joyce Wilkerson in her early days of breeding when she separated a pair to “give them a break� only to find she had two female instead of a male and female.

Originally posted by MLudl
Mark

PS: my local fish store says they do not like to carry captive bred clowns because there is a very high incedence of deformaties like flat faces and misbarring, caused by inbreeding. Is there any truth to this?

Not Mark, but I will put in my $0.02 on this one. This is a typical cry of a LFS that doesn't want to spend the extra money for CB clownfish. There is some truth to the statement, but by in large it is a false statement. Any breeder worth their salt culls deformed fish and never sells them. And many do offer mis barred clownfish, but as a separate, graded product, at a different price, generally less, sometimes more based on consumer demand. So when you hear a statement like that, it is either based on misinformation and lack of experience or flat out greed as CB clownfish run about twice as much as the same WC fish, allowing the LFS to make more money. I have nothing against an LFS making money, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be there to serve our needs, but putting BS like that state out there I do have a problem with, it is at best misinformation and ignorance and at worst a flat out lie to make more money.

To the general question of rather there are more mis bars, deformities in CB clownfish versus WC clownfish is one that is not likely to be solved. But one can make a logical argument that the rates are the same in CB fish as WC fish. For example, a fish with a deform jaw... In a CB environment that fish will likely be able to survive to a large size, while in the wild it will likely become food for something else or starve. Keep in mind that just because you do not see as many WC fish with mis barring and/or deformities, doesn't mean there were not a lot that were hatched out, but simply did not make it to ever be caught for sale to you.