Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Do It Yourself
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 05/04/2017, 07:16 PM   #9376
Lsufan
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 619
If u want to go with a c2c box then u can use the lower hole as the emergency drain, so it will have a elbow facing up. It doesn't look to be but about 1" below the other hole, so if u use it as the emergency u probably won't even have to make the box any deeper then normal to accommodate it.
I don't think I would use it for a return because u would have to rely on locline to not have a bunch of water drain down when it's powered off. If the locline gets pushed down for some reason it may cause u to have a flood. If u have a really big sump with a lot of extra room then it may not matter.

U can eighther go a full c2c & use it as the emergency & go over the back with the return or u can go with the internal wier & exterior box & use it as one of the pass through holes. I know uncle isn't a fan of that setup & he is more knowledgeable then I am, but I like the synergy style boxes. I just don't like the sizes they make them in. I like to have as long of a wier as possible on the inside of the tank & a bigger exterior box then what they make. One of the things I like about this setup other then the space I save is u can use black acrylic for the internal box & have the bulkheads hold it on the tank, Then do a glass exterior box. I really like the look of the black acrylic. I don't know if it would be worth the extra work just to save 1.5" in the tank, but I wanted a acrylic box so between the two it was worth it to me.

As far as the returns, if u don't want to go over the back of the tank then from the looks of it u have enough room between the edge of the tank & the existing holes to drill another hole for your returns. If u did it this way then u could have a longer internal box. U can make the internal box to where it covers your existing holes & still have room for returns on the ends as long as u have around 6" from the edge of the tank to where your existing hole starts.



Last edited by Lsufan; 05/04/2017 at 07:21 PM.
Lsufan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/05/2017, 09:07 AM   #9377
rwgarrison
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Thank-you for your responses. All very helpful. #1 thing learned, do not use the existing lower hole for return. Just asking for trouble.

I'm leaning towards going with an internal box. Question about your acrylic wier though for your external design. Don't you still have to make sure there are no leaks in the internal weir (otherwise the tank would drain to the level of the lowest leak higher than your holes with a power loss, wouldn't it?)? If so, how would you guarantee that with acrylic?

Question on hole size. The current hole size is 2" diameter and they had schedule 40 1" bulkheads installed. 2" seems big to me for that but seems to have worked before. Am I asking for trouble if I continue to use a schedule 40 1" bulkhead? It seems like the only other option would be to move to schedule 80 1", but that seems like overkill. I'm assuming if I drill 2 more holes I can make them smaller and put the same size bulkheads in.

BTW I'm using a 20 Gallon fishtank for the sump. So I don't have huge overflow space there but with the proper design I believe it should be enough.

Thanks again,

Ron


rwgarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2017, 07:57 AM   #9378
pweissma
Registered Member
 
pweissma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 294
Running a manifold off the siphon

I have a 60g cube with an overflow box from Exotic Marine Systems. It's similar to the Ghost overflow. I reduce the siphon to 3/4" and the open channel and emergency at 1". My sump is high on a shelf in my basement giving about 7 feet drop from the water surface. Siphon starts quickly, reliably and without any trouble. It takes less than a minute. Water fills to the emergency drain. After about the 10 seconds the siphon starts and pulls water down below the open channel. Then the water gradually rises back up to the open channel.

I'm considering putting a manifold on the siphon to run two Avast Marine reactors, a small spyglass reactor with very minimal flow and one of their small sized standard regular reactors running biopellets. The flow through the biopellets needs to be a bit more substantial.

I'm wondering if the manifold will create problems for system startup. All help is greatly appreciated! Thanks.


__________________
Solana Started 2/21/2010
pweissma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2017, 12:51 PM   #9379
uncleof6
Registered Member
 
uncleof6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: AWOL
Posts: 12,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by pweissma View Post
I have a 60g cube with an overflow box from Exotic Marine Systems. It's similar to the Ghost overflow. I reduce the siphon to 3/4" and the open channel and emergency at 1". My sump is high on a shelf in my basement giving about 7 feet drop from the water surface. Siphon starts quickly, reliably and without any trouble. It takes less than a minute. Water fills to the emergency drain. After about the 10 seconds the siphon starts and pulls water down below the open channel. Then the water gradually rises back up to the open channel.

I'm considering putting a manifold on the siphon to run two Avast Marine reactors, a small spyglass reactor with very minimal flow and one of their small sized standard regular reactors running biopellets. The flow through the biopellets needs to be a bit more substantial.

I'm wondering if the manifold will create problems for system startup. All help is greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Yes it will create problems for the startup. All three standpipes must be discrete, and go directly to the sump. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. If needing to feed "reactors" feed them from a tee in the return line, or run them on a separate pump... or simply eliminate them from the system altogether, considering the choice of reactors you have made.


__________________
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor)

Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef
uncleof6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2017, 02:31 PM   #9380
pweissma
Registered Member
 
pweissma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleof6 View Post
Yes it will create problems for the startup. All three standpipes must be discrete, and go directly to the sump. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. If needing to feed "reactors" feed them from a tee in the return line, or run them on a separate pump... or simply eliminate them from the system altogether, considering the choice of reactors you have made.
Thanks but you didn't identify any reason why it would create a problem at startup. I'm not merging any of the standpipes. The siphon would be divided into three but all three would go directly into the sump. BTW, I have been running the reactors off Ts from the return.


__________________
Solana Started 2/21/2010
pweissma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2017, 02:34 PM   #9381
BlueRoofTang
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 159
It wont. Think about siphoning from a bucket.....you only need yo get it started. The bottom end does not have to be in the water it does make it quieter though.


BlueRoofTang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05/09/2017, 09:39 PM   #9382
sleepydoc
Registered Member
 
sleepydoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,814
There are several potential problems running the siphon to a manifold running reactors. First, the back pressure caused by the reactors will slow the flow and also not be constant, causing the siphon flow to slowly 'drift' over time. The system can accommodate this to a degree but if you're only using 1" pipes for the open channel and dry emergency you can't put a lot of flow down the open channel before it starts caveating and creating noise.

During startup, the reactors will tend to trap air, which may interfere with the development of the siphon. In addition, if the total resistance is too high, the flow will be too slow to effectively clear the air, preventing the siphon from starting at all. It may work, but you can't depend on it. Keeping it like you have it (tee'd off the return) is a better bet IMO.


__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
120 gallon, coast to coast overflow w/beananimal overflow. Waveline DC 10000 II return pump, 40 gal sump, Octopus XS200 skimmer, T5 lighting
sleepydoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/10/2017, 11:57 AM   #9383
pweissma
Registered Member
 
pweissma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydoc View Post
There are several potential problems running the siphon to a manifold running reactors. First, the back pressure caused by the reactors will slow the flow and also not be constant, causing the siphon flow to slowly 'drift' over time. The system can accommodate this to a degree but if you're only using 1" pipes for the open channel and dry emergency you can't put a lot of flow down the open channel before it starts caveating and creating noise.

During startup, the reactors will tend to trap air, which may interfere with the development of the siphon. In addition, if the total resistance is too high, the flow will be too slow to effectively clear the air, preventing the siphon from starting at all. It may work, but you can't depend on it. Keeping it like you have it (tee'd off the return) is a better bet IMO.
Thanks. Makes sense. Unlike most on this forum my tank is small (60g) and my sump flow is about 500g so the 1" open channel and emergency do give enough flexibility. The point about 'drift' will exist with the reactors T-ed off the return as the water returning to the tank from the return pump will depend on the back pressure from the reactors. But this is my current setup and it works fine.

I'm not convinced that 'drift' would exist if the reactors were T-ed off the siphon. Siphon flow is a the product of cross section and length this won't change. I suspect that changes in back pressure from the reactors will only change the percentage of water that goes to the reactors vs directly to sump making the system slightly more stable.

I think the whole issue is about siphon startup and, yes, air in the reactors might be a big issue. Wish there was some way to test before re-plumbing.


__________________
Solana Started 2/21/2010
pweissma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/10/2017, 04:00 PM   #9384
sleepydoc
Registered Member
 
sleepydoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,814
Another thing to remember with your proposed setup is that you likely will get very little flow through the reactors if simply have them tee'd off with an open pipe taking the rest of the flow straight down to the sump there may well be too little pressure to the reactors. The only way to make it work would be to have the tee be above the gate valve.

Drift will absolutely occur. Whether it will be significant enough to be an issue or not is unknown. Siphon flow is a function of gravity, the height drop, fluid density & viscosity and the resistance to flow. The resistance to flow is ideally a function of pipe diameter, but the rate of flow, the fittings, surface resistance, etc also come into play, so saying 'I know the height and pipe diameter, therefore I know the flow' is a bit simplistic. Realistically, the only way to test this is to build it.


__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
120 gallon, coast to coast overflow w/beananimal overflow. Waveline DC 10000 II return pump, 40 gal sump, Octopus XS200 skimmer, T5 lighting
sleepydoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/10/2017, 10:01 PM   #9385
rwgarrison
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleof6 View Post
By leaps and bounds, your original idea in your first post is the better idea, than subsequently suggested following. Run the return over the top, (the best performing return) and plug the oddball hole (with a plugged bulkhead.) You can pretty much be assured that it will work out of the box, without having to mess with it.
Any reason, instead of plugging up the oddball hole, I use it for the emergency with a c2c internal box. I just need to make sure the upturned elbow is even with the top of the overflow box, possibly by adding small piece of pvc, if needed - right? This way I drill one more hole next to the other higher hole and put the main and open there.

And as it is the emergency, It doesn't really matter where it spills into the sump does it? (i.e. I don't have to pipe it way back over to where the other two spill into the sump)

Just want to make sure I'm not missing something. Thanks again.

Ron


rwgarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05/10/2017, 10:39 PM   #9386
rwgarrison
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Something like this...






rwgarrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
beananimal, plumbing

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014