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02/11/2016, 10:14 AM | #3051 |
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ok, here goes I'm a retired truck driver so don't be mean plz. I posted that yesterday I got up to small bubbles on rocks, algae, but not corals or polyps. removed bubbles just to have them come back in a couple of hours. My wife mentioned that 2 days ago I had a heater passing a small electric charge thru the tank, {bumped head on light fixture rude alert} and since I removed it my brown star polyps just dissolved in gray dust and now bubbles are present is this dinos
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02/11/2016, 10:16 AM | #3052 |
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So, if my theory above is true, then I think restarting the tank with the same sand and rocks (especially sand) will always generate the same dinos. The same source of locally available nitrogen gas and a seed population of dinos will restart the process unless you introduce a competing nitrogen fixing agent- like phyto - in such excess, that they limit the dino explosion.
One way to prove this theory is to remove the denitrifying elements as much as possible or pass their output through a chamber to export the nitrogen gas before returning to the tank. Basically, this supports removing the live sand completely as a potential solution.
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02/11/2016, 10:20 AM | #3053 | |
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Quote:
You'll want to confirm that you have dinos first.
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02/11/2016, 01:27 PM | #3054 | |
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Cyano CAN fix its own usable nitrogen from N2 gas. (This may be its claim to fame in the ocean) It probably likes the sandbed because there's more available phosphate in the low-flow spots where detritus accumulates. We see cyano before dinos because environments with very low available nitrate/nitrite/ammonia are hostile to green plants, and cyano is making its own N. It also stores phosphate. The dinos associate (or eat, or even farm) the cyano and other bacteria, taking advantage of the P and N. Dinos can therefore take advantage of the organically-bound nitrogen in the bacteria cells, plus they can suck up inorganic nitrate/etc from the water. Dinos switch strategies according to local conditions, so if the aquarist is actively reducing available inorganic (ammonia, nitrate) nitrogen, they will predate on bacteria more. So you're right that bacteria may be part of the problem, but really there is no practical way to sterilize a reef tank without killing *everything*. UV doesn't affect surface-living bacteria, and I saw an AA article saying it doesn't actually affect the pelagic populations much because bacteria can reproduce so quickly. hth and the chem gurus will correct me if I'm wrong, Ivy PS interesting note in that paper! Ostreopsis stops/reduces its toxin production under low nitrogen conditions. So taking up all the available nitrogen by competition (dirty) or direct removal (clean) may make dinos less problematic. Also, diatoms can have symbiosis with cyano. Didn't know that either, cool.
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 Last edited by Quiet_Ivy; 02/11/2016 at 01:54 PM. Reason: badly worded sentence |
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02/11/2016, 02:55 PM | #3055 |
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I agree that there's lots of nitrogen available in our systems from the air. Some species of cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen from the air, but it's never been shown that they do so in our tanks, not to an appreciable degree. I don't think that denitrification is the issue in dinoflagellate problems.
I agree that part of the problem might lie in symbiotic relationships or microbial films, but I don't know what we can do about that. As stated, controlling bacteria and keeping the reef tank alive is going to be difficult to impossible.
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02/11/2016, 03:54 PM | #3056 | ||
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Quote:
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sometimes the dinos return, then what? I was thinking of bailing on my tank if after a month the dinos were still there. after about a week or two of the dirty method, bacteria dosing, phyto and pod dosing, UV, and no water changes, adding more live rock and cermedia block I am 100% dino free. my rocks are virgin, not a spot of brown goo on them. |
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02/11/2016, 05:47 PM | #3057 |
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Thanks and I have yet to find a microscope to confirmed if it was dinos or just some scrapped algae we usually removed during our scrapping the glass wall.
But I just feel annoy with these stuff that sticked to coral's trunk and tip.
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02/11/2016, 05:56 PM | #3058 | |
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02/11/2016, 06:45 PM | #3059 |
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Interesting update from post 2979 .
Found something I was totally unexpecting to find. DNA's comment on UV not working on Ostreopis is what lead me to look under the scope again since starting to use UV sterilization just to reconfirm i have Ostreopsis. Maybe I had two types of dinos and didn't know it. That turned out to be the case but not as I expected. After looking under the scope for about 2 hours today, I found no traces at all of Ostreopsis. Ostreopsis is all i ever saw before installing UV so i never checked after they initially got under control. That seed looking Dino with tetherball motion that I described about in my previous posts is no longer there. These other dinos that I have now are more round and there swimming motion is nothing like the tetherball. This new dinoflagellate has more of a burst swimming motion in no particular pattern. As I stated before my return pump broke and my UV sterilizer along with all my other equipment in my sump was offline for 4 days or so and dinos expectedly grew. After I got my return pump in I did a three day lights out with UV. When the lights came back on Dino's did get knocked back quite a bit but nowhere near as the first go round when I absolutely knew for sure it was Ostreopsis. This new Dinoflagellate as I stated in my previous post is only a dusting and has never made any strings since UV was sinstalled. So in an unexpected result slow flow UV killed my Osteopsis and now another type has taken its place and seems to not make strings and stay more on the sand. Even when my return pump was out i never saw strings just heavy dusting. So just a heads up... if you havent looked under the scope in a while it might be valuable info to take a recent look. If i ever set up a youtube account ill post the videos |
02/11/2016, 07:09 PM | #3060 | |
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Quote:
Quick test u can do; suck the string out with turkey baster. Place in a cup and stir till dissolved. If u have dinos, string-like formation occurs again within 1-4 hours inside the cup
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02/11/2016, 07:10 PM | #3061 |
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Had lights back on and seems it is still lurking tiny bits on Kenya tree tonight but just had enormous fun with my Dino tank-I emptied the contents of my filter sock really just to see how many if any pods it caught (I should have been a biologist) all the greyish powdery stuff settled to the bottom in a mat with a couple of stringy bits on the surface. Well just put a bit of polylab medic (powdered hydrogen peroxide I think it says peroxide salt) in to see what happened and within seconds it all peeled off the bottom into a sort of sculptural vertical mat and is now a big lump hanging from the surface. Still resisting using it but now very tempted to see if it will finally help clear it from the rocks and sand bed. I might have to do it again as it was pretty impressive to watch lol! Don't know if it has killed them as had to give the microscope back. I have found the war on Dino's fascinating and I am almost beginning to wonder if I will miss it when I have finally conquered them lol!
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02/11/2016, 07:29 PM | #3062 | |
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Dinoflagellates.
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Good advise , specially for person like me that now no access to Microscope (I use them a lot before when I was a medical technologist then) . Will try and report back then. So if they don't go back to string formation then it may be the thin film algae resulted from scrapping glass wall? Cheers, MD
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02/11/2016, 07:30 PM | #3063 |
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Ok so dinos don't fix nitrogen but they thrive with with the bacteria who do. So, the rest of the logic still holds, it's just that the dinos have a partner in crime with cyano.
The remedies are also the same. In that case, phyto is also a nitrogen fixer and competes with the cyano/dino crime pair.
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02/11/2016, 07:34 PM | #3064 |
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There is a lot of nitrogen gas in our water, but it may not take a lot more to tip the scale. The excess from denitrification may be sufficient.
Based on the posts and articles, it looks like cyano and phyto do fix nitrogen in our tanks. I'll post some references.
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02/11/2016, 08:18 PM | #3065 | |
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counter-point: This paper presents and cites evidence of LOW N (relative to P) being good conditions for Dino bloom, and HIGH N to P ratio as favoring other competitors.
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02/11/2016, 08:30 PM | #3066 |
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I'd be interested in reading about nitrogen fixation in our tanks, if you have links.
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02/11/2016, 08:38 PM | #3067 |
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Regarding ideas to scrap everything and start over I ran across a couple of things that gave me the impression that Ammonia (in doses fatal to livestock of course) could be toxic to dinos but not all bacteria.
I don't remember what I was reading, but this would seem - if true - to wipe out Dinos and establish a strong competitive population in their place. |
02/11/2016, 09:10 PM | #3068 | |
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02/12/2016, 01:14 AM | #3069 |
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There are 2000 types of Dinos and they are not all the same.
They are in cold water that tends to be nutrient high as well as tropical waters. At least some dinos have been associated with rise nutrients. |
02/12/2016, 01:23 AM | #3070 | |
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Dinoflagellates.
Quote:
So in ULNS dinos or cyano are more likely non existence?
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MD I love Taiwan, a free democratic independent country. Current Tank Info: 90cmx60cmx60cm (420 liters total volume), 12mm thick tampered glass aquariums , Eheim compact +5000, Jns SK2 protein skimmer, T5 x 4 x39 watt (2 blue , 2 white), MP40WES, SEIO 1000, TLF 150 *2 + 550 *1 Last edited by machodik; 02/12/2016 at 02:00 AM. |
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02/12/2016, 02:50 AM | #3071 |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3849724/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574386/ http://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com...1471-2148-7-55 https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index...ne_environment http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/107/m107p083.pdf Ok - so this one might throw you off because it sounds like it's going the other way... but the argument is actually that the dinos provide preferable conditions during limited N periods so the cyano can more efficiently fix N for the dinos to consume. So... they are thriving on the nitrogen fixation engine... that's their food supply. That was my read of it, anyway. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/4/chemistry http://www.americanaquariumproducts....Potential.html http://www.americanaquariumproducts....gen_cycle.html http://urbansage.com/cyano.html http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...aquariums.html one of my favs:
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02/12/2016, 03:10 AM | #3072 |
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Here's a basic fast view on the N and P cycles for those who want it
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02/12/2016, 06:19 AM | #3073 |
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02/12/2016, 08:10 AM | #3074 | |
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02/12/2016, 01:11 PM | #3075 | |
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Mostly to clarify for people reading along- the "phyto" we hobbyists dose into our tanks is one or more species of green algae. Our phyto cannot fix nitrogen. Living algae can use up lots of free floating already-fixed nitrogen (ammonia, nitrate, etc) and is a good food source for pods. Adding phyto helps a lot vs dinos and even dead phyto seems to be good. hth ivy (dosing silica is on my list of things to try actually)
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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates. Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15 |
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